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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1781 - 2013-09-03 18:24:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?

minus drone bay
minus webs
minus sensor strength
minus HP
minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)

In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1782 - 2013-09-03 18:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Jenn aSide wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.

We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap
if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.

So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range

Of course, moving into range takes time, time during which your DPS is poor. Also, we're talking about applied DPS, which is not merely about range, but about landing damage. The Marauders have those nice tracking, explosion velocity, and/or painter bloom bonuses, which mean that any time the target is difficult to hit due to size, transversal, or velocity, the marauders' applied DPS is higher than that from a comparable battleship. What's more, if the marauders' hull bonuses are sufficient to allow good applied DPS without tracking mods or painters, well that frees up fitting for other things.


Exactly. This is also why a Machariel kills things faster than a Malestrom even when their dps numbers are similar or a Navy Raven kills faster than the other missile battleships despite having "the same dps".

This is a very major disconnect between what happens in game and what people say on the forums. it's a major reason why people's predictions about how ships will perform tend to be wrong. DPS isn't just only a guideline it's usually a MISLEADING indicator.


a machariel has higher "paper" dps then a maelstrom......


Easy test then. Take of damage mods from the mach till it matches the maelstroms dps (replace those damage mods with whatever you like).

Than take both DPS nomalized ships into some kind of pve content. Record which on STILL kills things faster.

Hint, it's name starts with M and ends with achariel.


yeah, lets assume we have 2 ships with exactly the same dps, and one has better projection. At equal ranges yes the higher projection one will do better, and there is no advantage in using the lower projection ship . But if you have the lower projection one have even a small amount more 'paper' dps, and you move closer then the projection ship, and all of a sudden you can do more damage. But we arent talking about a small amount of dps, we are talking about a significant amount of dps on ships whos projection is not terrible

Yes! We understand that at the same range, better projection means better dps - but given many situations if you want the max applied damage, you will find it is possible(you will FIND A WAY) to get a ship in their proper range even if lower projection. Incursions are a fantastic example. 1400machs are great projection ships, but vindis and nightmares are preferred due to higher 'paper' dps. The fleet even has a special anchoring spot for the close range ships called the vindi anchor, and the good pilots move themselves.
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1783 - 2013-09-03 18:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nano Quantum
Zeus Maximo wrote:
So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?

minus drone bay
minus webs
minus sensor strength
minus HP
minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)

In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose.

To be fair sensor strength was left alone not that is a good thing or maybe it is.....what I mean is the nerfs could have been worse for out of bastion mode just to make them balanced when they are in bastion mode.....In honesty some of the ships gain from bastion mode more than others. The Golem seems to be the one getting the short stick tbh given how the main weapon(s) have problems with damage application especially torps.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1784 - 2013-09-03 18:30:12 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?

minus drone bay
minus webs
minus sensor strength
minus HP
minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)

In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose.



But they can become EWAR immune.....and immobile at the same time Roll
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1785 - 2013-09-03 18:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
Onictus wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?

minus drone bay
minus webs
minus sensor strength
minus HP
minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)

In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose.



But they can become EWAR immune.....and immobile at the same time Roll


Very logical..... I say this sarcastically.

What is easier to hit? A moving target or a stationary one?

Why jam something if it can't move to stay on top of its target to point/web it/apply dps?

These ship have been altered purely for PVE. PVP with these ships until winter.... Then retire them.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Cade Windstalker
#1786 - 2013-09-03 18:40:56 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:

I don't recall mission runners having trouble tanking missions.

Only reason for this buff that I can think of is that missions are about to be made harder.

Could someone please explain to me how these changes are positive in a PVP aspect.

-No 90% web = can't lock down target
-In siege = can't move = no transversal = can't chase target running away
-Used for POS shoots = Raven Navy has 400 more dps


This is missions, targets don't run away.

No one ever said this was intended for POS shooting, some player came up with that idea and everyone ran with it despite there being better things for the job (like an actual fleet setup) and a single ship shooting a POS taking ~14 hours to kill it.

You can still lock down a target, you just need 2 webs rather than 1.

Ager Agemo wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Are you familiar with "dread blapping"? Big smile


yes I do, we used to do that In a WH corp I was at before.

Lokis would hold the sleepers for the revelations and moros to disintegrate said sleepers.

Then you should understand why CCP aren't going to give you a damage bonus for Bastion Mode.

[quote=Ager Agemo]I m... and doesn't it strikes you as weird, that a simple super cheap T1 drone battleship, makes more isk per click AFK than an active combat T2 super expensive battleship?


Unless you're worried about wearing out your mouse stop saying Isk per click if you mean isk per time unit.
Cade Windstalker
#1787 - 2013-09-03 18:47:03 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
What about if we take it in the other direction:

Bastion's range bonus makes blapping NPC's at range no problem, but what about closer NPC's that already have a little traversal built up?

I think Bastion should confer a 25-30% Tracking/Exp Velocity bonus as well. I think this fits the damage application theme, without turning it into a Dread Blapper.


The risk there is putting too much damage application on a single module.

I agree that the tank ability combine with a focus on long range combat has a bit of a dichotomy to it but I'm not sure I like the idea of a holy-trifecta of range/tank/tracking either.

Nano Quantum wrote:

Q. Will bastion module/mode have a re-activation cool down? I did not read mention of it in the OP just the activation on time. Will there be capacitor use associated with activating it and running it or will the now stated no activation cost other than fittings stay?


Assume no because none is stated, nor does any other siege module have one. For the second bit you'll find out if it changes when the rest of us do.

Nano Quantum wrote:
My current view is that the current plan of no capacitor and fuel costs stay as well as the plan to make that a separate new skill to learn. If anything i think the length of time on bastion mode at max skills is a bit high. Is there a chance that it be be say 45 seconds at max skills for it. Given that the weapons times limits one ability to dock or gate jump it should not matter at 45 seconds to run the risk of the ships becoming actual marauders.


You missed the bit where there's no new skill anymore and it's a flat 60 seconds. You have to train a rank 5 science skill to 4.

Also stop focusing on the definition of the ship name. They're called Marauders because it sounded cool, not because that's what they're balanced against.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#1788 - 2013-09-03 18:51:16 UTC
I don't think anybody actually said they would only use one of these to do a 14 hour POS bash. I think most people would take more than one. Or use these to supplement a normal fleet.

What I imagine happening is using a group of these to take down POS defenses before the "main body" arrives to RF the tower. Especially in hisec where you can't have dreadnaughts.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1789 - 2013-09-03 18:52:11 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
So the marauder can now be deemed worthless to pvp?

minus drone bay
minus webs
minus sensor strength
minus HP
minus ability to move with its bonus(What fool fights a fight sitting at zero speed?)

In the future I picture a brand new category being brought to the market labeled PVE SHIPS. Marauders will be the first type in there and their name will have no relation to their actual purpose.


I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway
I dont use webs on any of my mega
Its not that far from other battleships
I have flown mega with less ehp these can get
Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.
Cade Windstalker
#1790 - 2013-09-03 19:00:15 UTC
Jasmine Assasin wrote:
I don't think anybody actually said they would only use one of these to do a 14 hour POS bash. I think most people would take more than one. Or use these to supplement a normal fleet.

What I imagine happening is using a group of these to take down POS defenses before the "main body" arrives to RF the tower. Especially in hisec where you can't have dreadnaughts.


For the same ISK cost and pilot SP you could bring enough logistics to take down a tower and more DPS. The only way these end up at all better is if you somehow forget to bring ECCM to kill an ECM fit POS.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#1791 - 2013-09-03 19:09:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
Cade Windstalker wrote:
[
This is missions, targets don't run away.

No one ever said this was intended for POS shooting, some player came up with that idea and everyone ran with it despite there being better things for the job (like an actual fleet setup) and a single ship shooting a POS taking ~14 hours to kill it.

You can still lock down a target, you just need 2 webs rather than 1.



You ran with the idea that I would shoot one by myself....

Also it's easy to burn away from a target that can't move. We all know 1 web won't stop a ship from getting back to a gate and how do you propose fitting 2 webs on these ships? Remove capbooster from an active tank? Get rid of propulsion? Very interested to hear your "easy fix" response.


baltec1 wrote:


I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway
I dont use webs on any of my mega
Its not that far from other battleships
I have flown mega with less ehp these can get
Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.


Not smart
Can't track
Its' worse
Poor fit
If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Xer Jin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1792 - 2013-09-03 19:16:40 UTC
these are all horibad changes to the marauders ITS A TECH 2 BS. they should be better than pirate BS your nerfing speed they should be faster. your nerfing dps they should hit the hardest (especially if you want them to truly be mini dreads ). they should have the best resists LIKE ALL OTHER T2 SHIPS. they need better cap again like all T2 this is just plain bad wrong and stupid. there are more ppl in this thread saying NO and much less saying yes if you're going to balance ships make sure it scales up not up half way along the t2 ships and then come crashing down with the most expensive class of ships in the t2 line this is a BIG NERF they are way too over tanked and under dpsed.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1793 - 2013-09-03 19:20:26 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Zeus Maximo wrote:


baltec1 wrote:


I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway
I dont use webs on any of my mega
Its not that far from other battleships
I have flown mega with less ehp these can get
Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.


Not smart
Can't track
Its' worse
Poor fit
If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP.


I dont need them so why would I bother? Most times I take a flight of med armour repair or smalls.
I track things just fine.
And?
Only if you are a poor pilot. Theres a reason theres a fleet named after me.
There are things called freinds, you should try them they come in handy.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1794 - 2013-09-03 19:23:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
baltec1 wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:


baltec1 wrote:


I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway
I dont use webs on any of my mega
Its not that far from other battleships
I have flown mega with less ehp these can get
Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.


Not smart
Can't track
Its' worse
Poor fit
If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP.


I dont need them so why would I bother? Most times I take a flight of med armour repair or smalls.
I track things just fine.
And?
Only if you are a poor pilot. Theres a reason theres a fleet named after me.
There are things called freinds, you should try them they come in handy.

so you would have support with you? like.... i dont know.... logistics? Sounds useful for a ship that blocks rr. I mean, im not a huge pvper, so i may be wrong, but i would probably want logi if i were bringing support

When i think of using this ship in PVE (which i know is completely different) the conclusion i come to is that 1 marauder Might in BEST case scenario, be better solo then one solo pirate ship for example. But if you have more than 1 ship, i see mutliple marauders being worse compared to an equal number of non-marauders.

i mean, in best case scenario i see the marauder being safe, and easy in L4s. Not the fastest, but probably safest and easiest due to tank and projection..... But if you want to be safe, that is, from risk.... why not just use a much cheaper ship?

So that just leaves this ship being 'easy' due to not moving.... but then you have to deal with either MJD'ing multiple times to reach optimal ranges or gates..... or using an MWD which is really nasty slow with the new reduced speeds, so compared to a normal ship it is no easier as reaching your optimal will take much much longer even if you have amazing projection.

Alternatively you could dual-prop, but then you are either gimping tank, or gimping dps, the excuse of "you ge higher dps because fewer tank slots are needed" is somewhat negated when you have to dualprop to remain effective

so you choose good mobility: reduced tank or dps or both
so you choose good dps: reduced tank or mobility or both
so you choose good tank: reduced mobility or dps or both.

In any of those scenarios i can see other ships being better because they dont have to sacrifice one for the other to be better then a marauder with those qualities



This ship is... paradoxical. It gets great tank! which is supposed to make it survivable, but this is counteracted by its immobility.
Great projection! which is supposed to make it high damage application, this is counteracted by its immobility + jump drive.... you jump out of your own optimal, or the enemy walks in the opposite direction.

Even those two bonuses - range and tank - are paradoxal.... If you are at extreme ranges why do you need extreme tank?

The ship is a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. And its bonuses just counteract problems it creates for itself.
Cade Windstalker
#1795 - 2013-09-03 19:24:56 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:

You ran with the idea that I would shoot one by myself....

Also it's easy to burn away from a target that can't move. We all know 1 web won't stop a ship from getting back to a gate and how do you propose fitting 2 webs on these ships? Remove capbooster from an active tank? Get rid of propulsion? Very interested to hear your "easy fix" response.


The ships that lost the web bonus are armor ships anyway, they have spare mids. 4 of them to be exact. You certainly have to made trade-offs if you want to fit a second web, but that's the nature of the game. If 1 web isn't enough to stop someone from burning back to a gate and escaping then you should have brought more DPS.


Zeus Maximo wrote:
Not smart
Can't track
Its' worse
Poor fit
If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP.


No one said these things were supposed to be great solo PvP ships. It says 'Niche PvP role' right there in the opening post. Not 'PvP god-kings of ownage'.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1796 - 2013-09-03 19:28:40 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:


baltec1 wrote:


I dont tend to use drones in pvp anyway
I dont use webs on any of my mega
Its not that far from other battleships
I have flown mega with less ehp these can get
Every cap ship, hic, most snipers, many fleets, me when whacking things with blasters in antimatter range.


Not smart
Can't track
Its' worse
Poor fit
If you can't move, how do plan on keeping a sniper in point range? A sniper isn't going to snipe from 20k and stay there to get shot? I am talking pvp here, not a PVE expert trying to PVP.


I dont need them so why would I bother? Most times I take a flight of med armour repair or smalls.
I track things just fine.
And?
Only if you are a poor pilot. Theres a reason theres a fleet named after me.
There are things called freinds, you should try them they come in handy.

so you would have support with you? like.... i dont know.... logistics? Sounds useful for a ship that blocks rr. I mean, im not a huge pvper, so i may be wrong, but i would probably want logi if i were bringing support


Dictors, tackle, ect. I would take a kronos out with cruiser gangs and the like as either bait, sniper or scorched earth blaster fit.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1797 - 2013-09-03 19:28:43 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
What about if we take it in the other direction:

Bastion's range bonus makes blapping NPC's at range no problem, but what about closer NPC's that already have a little traversal built up?

I think Bastion should confer a 25-30% Tracking/Exp Velocity bonus as well. I think this fits the damage application theme, without turning it into a Dread Blapper.


The risk there is putting too much damage application on a single module.

I agree that the tank ability combine with a focus on long range combat has a bit of a dichotomy to it but I'm not sure I like the idea of a holy-trifecta of range/tank/tracking either.

There are four points on the square, the last being damage modification. That is deliberately absent- and I think we can agree it should be. That absence means that an increase in application, not just projection, wouldn't be excessive. I'd argue that it would compliment the theme of this new ship beautifully.

The ship's theoretical maximum DPS would stay the same, but the ability to project and apply that DPS increases greatly in Bastion Mode. It makes sense, doesn't it?
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#1798 - 2013-09-03 19:30:51 UTC
Marauders as subcap dreqds was always a bad idea. It disgusts me to see CCP soothing the bleating lambs by giving them a ship better in places it didn't need improving and worse in every other way.
Cade Windstalker
#1799 - 2013-09-03 19:31:26 UTC
Xer Jin wrote:
*redacted to avoid quoting a rant-post*


They are better than Pirate Battleships, at tanking and damage projection and they do have good resists, just not as good as smaller T2 ships (no T2 Battleship has full resist bonuses).

Not all T2 ships have significantly better capacitor, also these fit half the guns of most ships which is a major cap savings.

T2 is not supposed to be strictly better than pirate or faction. (from this dev-blog)
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1800 - 2013-09-03 19:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Xer Jin wrote:
*redacted to avoid quoting a rant-post*


They are better than Pirate Battleships, at tanking and damage projection and they do have good resists, just not as good as smaller T2 ships (no T2 Battleship has full resist bonuses).

Not all T2 ships have significantly better capacitor, also these fit half the guns of most ships which is a major cap savings.

T2 is not supposed to be strictly better than pirate or faction. (from this dev-blog)


they are worse in every scenario of usage, regardless of an individual quality.
if the marauder is the BEST at doing something.... what does it matter if its drawbacks make it so it would be more EFFECTIVE to use another ship in that scenario? Might as well have a pickaxe thats lighter and easier to swing then any other - but shatters when it hits rock. Oh yeah, its best in one catagory...