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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#1721 - 2013-09-03 11:18:14 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
I guess there is needed something holding it back from becoming "I WIN" button.

Since when did they become IWIN?

Well, they ARE NOT as they are proposed, and that was my point. Bastion bonuses without bastion drawbacks would be pretty much close to the nirvana though.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1722 - 2013-09-03 11:36:04 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.

We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap
if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.

So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range

Of course, moving into range takes time, time during which your DPS is poor. Also, we're talking about applied DPS, which is not merely about range, but about landing damage. The Marauders have those nice tracking, explosion velocity, and/or painter bloom bonuses, which mean that any time the target is difficult to hit due to size, transversal, or velocity, the marauders' applied DPS is higher than that from a comparable battleship. What's more, if the marauders' hull bonuses are sufficient to allow good applied DPS without tracking mods or painters, well that frees up fitting for other things.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1723 - 2013-09-03 11:40:21 UTC
KRONOS

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage
10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)

Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level


Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 14000 PWG (+2000), 580 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6600(-200) / 7200(-100) / 8600(+400)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6900(+1275) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 6 cap/s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 m/s(-28) / .114(-0.0038) / 113160000(+11360000) / 17.8s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-75)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+3km) / 120(+39) / 10
Sensor strength: 13 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 420(-80)


________________________________________________________________________________________________


Questions I'd like to see some players answer and I'll do it my self, why would "x" use this ship in null and what for? (current version)

-anoms? -no, bastion or not 13 Sensor makes it a joke still
-structure grind? -maybe for lols and giggles
-can it be done well/better in Vindi or Navy Mega? -sure
-what's the point of this ship for while in null? -none except trying bastion stuff
-can you fly it?- yes
-do you fly it and where?- no way I waste a penny for, already wasted training time and isk in skills, that's enough!
-would you fly it if current version hits TQ and where? -nope
-what is this ship worth for in your opinion? -high sec PVE and POS shooting
-Why am I even posting? -duno, maybe because I can

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Danica Fox
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1724 - 2013-09-03 11:41:35 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
i used to joke about how the marauder should be changed into "luxery battleship" because of how it wasnt really very good before... but i would take that now.

Give us a luxery battleship. More drone space, more utility, more bonuses (tractor beam, salvager.... survey scanner.... i dont know) maybe an ammo bay, maybe a drone loading system from cargo, make it a smooth ride :\

make bastion mode turn the ship into a concessions stand..... give like 1% fleet boosts..... give it rep bonus...... i dont know


This is a fun idea. Also, would suggest and on-board cabin for your mission agent so you can accept and complete missions without returning to station.

Smile



AWWWE YEEAAHH add in walk-in-ship, have a little bar, give us a house in there so we can buy furnature and play minecraft in our cabin

add built in refinery.... add limited docking/repair/fitting services for nubs, add a ship bay.....


What, you mean actually make it able to maraud? Like not go home ever? You'd need a mini ammo factory on board...

do you know i was actually going to post that too, but i dont know engredients for ammo as im not a manufacturer, but it would be awesome and hilarious and useless and i want it.

Imagine if they made it a "just for fun" ship...i could see it now....

"Marauder: this ship class was designed with its user base in mind. Long time vetts tired of uncomfortable chairs, inconvenience and the daily grind can now opt for a more comfortable drive.... with built in cabin, they can even take a nap while tanking those guristas. The on board bar and food stands allow for the captain to entertain new capsuleers and show them what true luxery is. With build in agent communication array, ammo production line, and drone loading bay, you can stay out longer without needing to dock at stuffy corporate stations. Not the highest damage output of all battleships, but rather for those of more discerning tastes.

Requires monicle or odins eye to operate. "


i instantly would scream give it to me
that is a marauder

or even more hillarios make the cargo bay split into lets say 1000m³ normal cargo and 600m³ reprocessing hangar
in which slowly the random loot u put into will be transformed into the needed ammo or capboosters or drones just needing the right bpo give it the ability to cloak up (not covert ops cloak but a bonus to non covert cloaking to negate those sideeffects while cloak not active) and there u got a selfsustained monster that can maraud through abbandoned 0 npc 0 low sec or 0 secs without stations ...
who this is what i call awesome
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1725 - 2013-09-03 11:47:17 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
-anoms? -no, bastion or not 13 Sensor makes it a joke still
-structure grind? -maybe for lols and giggles
-can it be done well/better in Vindi or Navy Mega? -sure
-what's the point of this ship for while in null? -none except trying bastion stuff
-can you fly it?- yes
-do you fly it and where?- no way I waste a penny for, already wasted training time and isk in skills, that's enough!
-would you fly it if current version hits TQ and where? -nope
-what is this ship worth for in your opinion? -high sec PVE and POS shooting
-Why am I even posting? -duno, maybe because I can


What the hell does sensor strength have to do with anom running? It's completely irrelevant unless you're shooting rats that jam and bastion gives you EW immunity anyways so you don't have to care about jams. Locking speed is determined by scan resolution and 120 scan res is not a bad number for a battleship. The Vindicator has 100, for comparison.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1726 - 2013-09-03 11:52:25 UTC
I would really like these to hit sisi soon so we can do proper testing and not forum warrior numbers

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Lair Osen
#1727 - 2013-09-03 12:08:19 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

I argue once again that marauders would be better served with a velocity bonus rather than a velocity nerf, if they are intended to engage NPCs at close range.


Where do you get this idea? Seeing as Marauders have a range skill bonus instead of tracking and bastion has a range bonus it would seem the opposite?

Mournful Conciousness wrote:

A velocity bonus would also give them better gank evasion characteristics in hostile space.


If you're using a BSs speed to evade ganks I think your doing something wrong.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1728 - 2013-09-03 12:16:38 UTC
Lair Osen wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

I argue once again that marauders would be better served with a velocity bonus rather than a velocity nerf, if they are intended to engage NPCs at close range.


Where do you get this idea? Seeing as Marauders have a range skill bonus instead of tracking and bastion has a range bonus it would seem the opposite?

Mournful Conciousness wrote:

A velocity bonus would also give them better gank evasion characteristics in hostile space.


If you're using a BSs speed to evade ganks I think your doing something wrong.


The example fit uses short range weaponry coupled with the range extending bonuses of the ship and the bastion module.

Increased ship speed is equivalent to increased range because it achieves the same thing.

re evasion:
To evade a gank you need to be not where you were when your attacker went into warp.

You want to be 30+km from a gate entry point. If there are no gates you want to be constantly moving. If you stand still, strong or not, you're dead.

I am very experienced at ganking people. I know what I can catch and what I can't without being evaded. Moving targets are always much more difficult.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1729 - 2013-09-03 12:19:23 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
when i speak casually of "dps" i mean applied dps.

We realise it is better at projecting its dps, but it has a lower dps Cap
if you are in the correct range with a higher dps ship, you dont have as much projection, but you are still applying more dps because you are in your shorter range. For example, a vindi has very high paper dps but poor projection.... so it moves into position to apply its dps.

So you Can apply more dps in a ship with less projection. At range you wont apply it, and better projection would be better dps, but thats why we move to the correct range

Of course, moving into range takes time, time during which your DPS is poor. Also, we're talking about applied DPS, which is not merely about range, but about landing damage. The Marauders have those nice tracking, explosion velocity, and/or painter bloom bonuses, which mean that any time the target is difficult to hit due to size, transversal, or velocity, the marauders' applied DPS is higher than that from a comparable battleship. What's more, if the marauders' hull bonuses are sufficient to allow good applied DPS without tracking mods or painters, well that frees up fitting for other things.


Exactly. This is also why a Machariel kills things faster than a Malestrom even when their dps numbers are similar or a Navy Raven kills faster than the other missile battleships despite having "the same dps".

This is a very major disconnect between what happens in game and what people say on the forums. it's a major reason why people's predictions about how ships will perform tend to be wrong. DPS isn't just only a guideline it's usually a MISLEADING indicator.
Danica Fox
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1730 - 2013-09-03 12:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Danica Fox
maybe with the upgraded pg and cpu u could turn those marauders in smartbomb bs for 0

4 guns 3 large faction sb bastion module or 4th sb small shieldbooster some hardeners damage mods + maybe 1 or 2 fitting mods

it would screw all bonuses but might work in stargate havens and hubs maybe we should clarify before its going live and insta nerfed

edit : after bit research already possible with the actual stuff

[Vargur, New Setup 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Reactor Control Unit II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Imperial Navy Large EMP Smartbomb
Imperial Navy Large EMP Smartbomb
Imperial Navy Large EMP Smartbomb

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

300 dps em/thermtank sufficient for sg haven i think
somewhat costy but there a people using it with upgraded pg u could plugin a 4th sb

4 smartbombs doing like 50 dps each to all targets (normally 7-12 per spawn) 200dps x target count

edit : wanted to qoute something from an older post but they got all deleted stopping posting right now
PhatController
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1731 - 2013-09-03 13:10:25 UTC
Doed wrote:
Two step wrote:
I'd rather see a tracking penalty and a DPS increase. As is, where are you expecting these to be used? In nullsec, they will get eaten alive by bombers, in w-space they use too much mass (and can't fit into C1 holes where you really might like a mini-dread).

It seems to me like they will still be PVE boats, which you claimed you wanted to change.


I was kinda thinking the same... Lolhs and wh super niche is all they will see outside of pve.



Have to disagree, as well as a niche pve role before the patch, these ships will also have a niche pvp role, namely POS bashing for those corps that can't field dreads, and for Hi-Sec POS bashing. I don't know a lot about FW but potentially Ihub bashing?
Horatio Astrates
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#1732 - 2013-09-03 13:10:41 UTC
Marauders get nerved. It's not a bug it's a feature. I do not know why people compare the Bastion Stuff with the Dreadnaught Siege Mode. In Siege do a lot more Damage 8.8 times if you have the Tech II Module. You do not do any more damage in Bastion Mode.
What you get is a better chance of losing your ship or playing AFK. I was totally astonished how large the speed tank affected even with Afterburners is, and you totally loose the option of aligning and leaving the screen.

In my Tachyon paladin I use the Multifrequency Crystals for everything below a range of about 60 km. What I do not need is using Multifrequency Crystal in Max Targeting distance. Lots of enemies will be at closer range. The strong webber, my best weapon against close range targets I shall loose, also drone Capacity. The Amor gets nerved. For what do I need another high slot, a mid or low slot would be useful: Armor, Heat Sink or Recharge. I already have 3 utility high slots. Salvaging will be done with a Noctis, it is more efficient anyway.

If you want to realize this concept make a new class of ships, based on the former Tier III battleships. But leave me my toy.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1733 - 2013-09-03 13:17:54 UTC
PhatController wrote:


Have to disagree, as well as a niche pve role before the patch, these ships will also have a niche pvp role, namely POS bashing for those corps that can't field dreads, and for Hi-Sec POS bashing. I don't know a lot about FW but potentially Ihub bashing?


A 1 billion isk marauder in an ihub bash? I'll give you 2 minutes before you're hot-dropped.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#1734 - 2013-09-03 13:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Mandatory...

CCP reconsider not nerfing speed agility hit points to the ground for teh sake of immobile brick that marauder will become.

They will be enough limited by drone nerf and simple fact that bastion will anchor you where you stand, with benefit no b8ger that you already had before TE nerf while being linked with scimitar. ..it is nice buff but totally not worth all of nerfs and immobility stacked on top.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1735 - 2013-09-03 13:33:00 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
PhatController wrote:


Have to disagree, as well as a niche pve role before the patch, these ships will also have a niche pvp role, namely POS bashing for those corps that can't field dreads, and for Hi-Sec POS bashing. I don't know a lot about FW but potentially Ihub bashing?


A 1 billion isk marauder in an ihub bash? I'll give you 2 minutes before you're hot-dropped.


Not to mention at that price, a dread would do it literally 10 times better.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1736 - 2013-09-03 13:39:40 UTC
I was a little inspired by CCP Ytterbium's fit and narrative of a new bastion kronos doing a Hisec Level 4 (not inspired to do it myself you understand, but it gave me some ideas).

I have also been thinking about the various posts I have seen concerning the use of a marauder in w-space for solo ratting.

I decided to see if I could make an affordable fit that would solo cat-3 sleepers.

It turns out that it's possible with the current Kronos (fit below). So then I wondered, "why are people not already doing this?". In 3 years of ganking hapless wormhole ratters, I have never seen a solo marauder. Solo tengus, yes. Solo lokis, yes. Solo legions, yes. But never a similarly priced marauder which would do the job faster.

Maybe it's the lack of versatility? A tengu is good at more stuff, so why not just invest once? Perhaps it's just a mindset thing. People just don't think to do it. Speak to most people and they'll say, "battleships don't work in wormholes". But I use them. The fact is that they do work.

Maybe it's not the marauders that need to change. Maybe it's just that the players need some education and leadership in marauder use?

[Kronos, omni]

4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Null L)
Salvager II
2x Small Tractor Beam II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 800)
Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range Script)
Stasis Webifier II

Ammatar Navy Large Armor Repairer
Damage Control II
3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

2x Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II

5x Hammerhead II
7x Vespa EC-600

[Statistics - All V, no implants, links or drugs]

Tank Ability: 546.64 DPS
Armor Resists - EM: 76.92%, Ex: 58.46%, Ki: 77.50%, Th: 73.75%
Capacitor (Stable at 81.05%)

Volley Damage: 3,877.73
DPS: 1052 range 14490/22750 range (null)
DPS: 1409 range 7762/8125 range (void)

Looking at the numbers, if I was online alone and had a dual-box scout on the 1 wormhole entrance to my C3, I'd give it a go. Of course, if a new sig appeared I'd be off to my POS quicker than a fast thing moving quickly in a hurry.

Has anyone out there ever tried a fit like this?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
mamamia s
Special Assault Unit
Pandemic Horde
#1737 - 2013-09-03 13:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: mamamia s
lots of posts got deleted in the last sites obviosly

but i´m interested in the question of pricetag as a balance issue

is it a balance wise looked in or totally out of balance thoughts

i see alot of argument of dreads and marauders which are quite close in terms of isk cost and not so close (not too far away it think) close on skilltime

on the other hand lets say a vindi is on par on isk but far under skill req

i would be interested in some thoughts from the comms and even the devs if possible

no discussion on power or something like that just the point of isk ad skilltime pls
Blazing Betty
Grim Collective
#1738 - 2013-09-03 13:53:51 UTC
Just a two cent idea for Marauders ...allow for scripts that will influence your MJD . Lets say a script for 20 km , 40 km ,60 km , 80 km and 100 km jump range...using it on the fly to determine your jump range as a added feature only for Marauders...
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1739 - 2013-09-03 13:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
How marauders should really be:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu1BF-pZcUw[/url]

If you remember this game, I reckon you're just about old enough to appreciate eve online properly Blink

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Akvi Raiku
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1740 - 2013-09-03 14:01:34 UTC
I think it is not good to leave only 5 lightdrones at the same time as ship totally immobilized.
75m3 is better, but b\w still can be 25Mb\s.
Other way..
Ok, maybe it's a variant to use a large neutralizers against fast targets, but.. CCP should research the idea to replace bonus for tractor beams with the bonus for range of energy neutralizers (only in bastion mode, only on paladin for ex) and with bonus for stasis webs' factor (only in bastion mode, only on kronos for ex). It will be very nice bonus change since bastion don't raise dps.
So we'll get 2 marodeurs with more-pvp-specialization. Golem and Vargur still may have the bonus for tractors (pve orientation).