Player Features and Ideas Discussion

marauder is a pve ship first and pvp second. it was designed to do well in pve content. so mayebe it will be easier on the dev if you just let them do what is best instead of trying to make the marauder do both pvp and pve. We have enough BS to do PVP having one more or less wouldnt make much of a difference. Eve need both pvp and pve. with out pve, all the pvp is meaningless.

you would be correct. I dont claim to know the proper way to do everything XD Thats why i said generally.

Its just that people seem to be claiming that better projection is ALLWAYS better dps, when in reality, that is Often not the case.

To comment on the use of the new marauders in vanguard sites.

Last time I did incursions was somewhere around a year to a year and a half ago. That being said, the basic numbers haven't really changed. A vanguard site puts out somewhere between 2000 and 2500dps in OTA's, and a fairly negligible amount in either of the others comparatively. In case you aren't aware, some people have already done vanguard sites in self-tanked vargurs - you just need to hit around 2k dps tanked. And this was before ASB's were added too. Yes, those ships did have to make a few sacrifices to accomplish that, and in the current meta of blitz fleets, they are no longer particularly viable.

Now we add the bastion module. If we have a good offgrid booster (if you don't, you shouldn't be flying multi-billion isk ships in an incursion), a vargur right now with a damage control, 2 CN invulns, a t2 boost amp, and a t2 large shield booster can already hit 1k dps tanked. Note, you can still add a crystal set to this, upgrade the booster, or upgrade the boost amp. Add the bastion module on top of this. We get a 30% increase in resists, which amounts to about the same as adding in a crystal set - a low grade at least. And then add another 100% to repair amount. So our 1k dps tank just jumped to 2500-3k. So now you can possibly tank a vanguard site with a single t2 large booster, and not too much in the way of bling for a vanguard marauder. The only worry is cap - but you can put cap transfers in the highs, and the bastion mod only lasts for a minute, so if you start running low on cap, pop on out, and buddy up with someone else, or just pop on out and let your logi's top up your cap a bit.

So yes, these things will be totally viable for vanguard sites. Less so for assaults/HQ's, though they may still be potentially viable for assaults with a local tank. Its a bit up for debate whether or not their damage application will make them worthwhile, but I'm sure that someone will experiment with that. And it will probably be totally viable to run with 2x cap transfers and 1x RR in the highs, and if you get a fleet of them together you can probably leave the logi's at home. Or if you aren't too fond of the bastion mod, you can run 2x cap transfer and 1-2x RR and just spidertank. This would allow you to put out a 10man fleet of 1000dps BS's, or an 8man BS fleet with 2 web loki's/bhaals/whatever for the damage application.

As for the Armor side of things... that will be a bit trickier as armor reps tend to be a bit weaker than shield, as well as having lower resists to work with. However, right now you can get a kronos that can selftank for 647dps against omni-damage, if you have a good fleet booster, while keeping 3 damage mods, and using a t2 rep. The bastion mod should bump that up to 1800ish dps tanked. Oh, and local tanks are getting boosted by about 15% - so that bumps it up to around 2100dps tanked. So it will be viable, if a little bit harder to pull off than a shield fit. But this would allow you to use either a kronos or a paladin for this, and both will have excellent damage projection.

TLDR: Solo tanking vanguards will totally be viable without excessive need for bling. Viability and usefulness of these is less certain

This is by design and it could work as intended... But it wouldnt.

Because I can do all of that in a carrier, and do it better. Much better. And dont be a sitting duck.

As a bonus, I can do a hell lot of other things in my carrier. Like move a house, repair structures, be a part of slowcat fleet. So what is the point of marauders once again? Not sold to me.

The Target Painter cycle is annoying in general. Make this change ahead of time for Odyssey 1.1.01

Suggestion: Let's make PvE not so horrifically different from PvP.

It's this split that's preventing the Marauder from being a valid ship with a unique and interesting specialization that is fun to play.

Oh god....this thread, the way it started, will have at least 5 rounds and 2000 pages of posts before the winter expansion hits...so let's not waste any time, shall we?

CCP Ytterbium....

This is gonna sound mean but, your post feels to me like a used car salesman trying to sell something crappy....

Don't get me wrong, the numbers you provided us by doing some testing are quite valuable so we can have some point of reference when talking about damage and damage application, but you have missed the point with your testing!

PvE...

The fact that a bastion fitted marauder can plow through a L4 mission is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT! Why? Because there are only 3 types of players in EvE who do L4 missions with marauders:

a) people who do it for the lolz
b) people who are too afraid to leave hisec
c) people who don't know any better

Also, testing that all out tank fitted Vargur you mentioned with the deadspace X-L shield booster in incursion vanguards is also irrelevant because in order to make an X-L shield booster stable, you had to massacre the fit with cap recharging modules and that is hardly the fit used by incursion runners - furthermore, it also shows that active shield tanking is still overpowered compared to active armor tanking even with the 15% buff that armor repairers gained, not to mention all the PvP brainstorming about dual X-L ASB setups which can never be challenged by any AAR setups because AAR modules require cap to work at all!

So regardless of any cap boosters fitted on an armor ship, the AAR can still stop functioning under heavy neuting unlike the ASB which draws it's juice directly from the cap boosters, not to mention this funny X-L shield booster module concept which is neither a battleship class module, but neither a capital module, but still usable for crazy effects even on ships smaller than a battleship - truth be told, this is more of a active shield tanking vs active armor tanking issue, but it's there!


So let's think about low/null/WH PvE applications of these new siege marauders....

Low/nullsec missions....sure if you don't have to go to a nearby system because due to the awsome agility of the ships (sarcasm) you will probably get shafted by a simple gate camp with a scram....and once you are tackled, you are going to die horribly and no, the siege mode will not save you because of the way ganking works today - if you are ganking something, you know what you are ganking, you know how to kill it and if you know you can't, you don't even try (the latter option is an extremely rare case).

Every half decent gang has at least one dedicated neuting platform which will be the end of you very quickly and more often than not, gangs are not even looking for you - instead they are waiting on a titan/black ops ship with only a single recon/bomber flying around looking for hot drop targets...


Nullsec belt ratting and anomalies....with a one minute siege cycle, the best thing you can do is warp to a belt/anomaly, immediately cycle the MJD once to get 100km above or beneath the warp in point, deploy siege mode, snipe the NPCs and pray that your siege cycle has not just started when a hostile entered the system - especially with the odyssey's awsome new feature where all anomalies are available for warp-in as soon as you enter a system!

Marauders and all other T1/faction battleships except the Vindicator (handles like a BC) and Machariel (handles like a cruiser) were actually ill-advised for belt ratting and anomalies even before the Odyssey patch because they were too slow to align even if you kept a watchful eye on local, so having a minute timer of being locked in place is a great way to get killed without even a realistic chance of escaping.

Have I mentioned that sniping at 100km in hopes of not getting caught by a random recon/interceptor ship cruising about makes salvaging and looting impossible because of the crap range/bonus of tractor beams?


WH space...do you people have any idea how suddenly death can come in WH space?
People who are doing simple gas mining in Ventures that require less than 3 seconds to align and warp are getting jumped and killed without knowing what hit them, but sure, let's bring 3 bil isk sieged pinatas into that scenario!!!

Small gang of marauders who are "marauding" their way through WH space, perhaps pillaging C2, 3 and 4 sleeper sites will be not only faction/deadspace fitted, but will also contain a significant amount of sleeper loot and salvage - no reason for anyone to gank them at all, right? I am sure their awsome radical-amazing new siege modules will save them against a tech3 fleet or a sieged dread which will be dropped onto them just for the fun of testing their tanking power...

As for the C5 and 6 organized sleeper bashing, marauders will have no place there because sleepers do some heavy neuting, and these high end sleeper sites are being done via capital escalations to make the most isk out of it, and trust me, no marauder, sieged or not, wants to get targeted by 14+ sleepless guardians, neuted almost instantly and blown to smithereens a few seconds after that.


Incursions...right now we have a whole bunch of whiners and tinfoil hat bums with conspiracy theories how all these changes are actually meant to destroy their hard earned face rolling of incursion vanguards not just with these proposed marauder changes, but also with the 1.1 Odyssey patch coming later today....they will adapt, and perhaps there will be less elitist single ship doctrine incursion fleets out there which is a good thing.

Man, what a wall of text...this ain't gonna fit in one post >.<

THE GOOD:

That you are actually doing something about the Marauders.
That you engaged in creative thinking.



THE BAD:

That you did not jump to the obvious conclusion (same as all others in here) that the Bastion will need to provide capacitor immunity from neuts to be effective in any meaningful way.




THE UGLY:

Removing the web bonus from the Kronos and replacing with a bonus that applies to blasters is ********. Either give it optimal like the Paladin so it can use rails or if it is to use blasters leave the web bonus in. Are you proposing a vessel that will mjd 100kms away and once there will use blasters with optimal and falloff total of 35kms????? (Instead of say 25kms wothout the bonus)?????????????????????????????????????????????? Seriously whoever thought of that needs to talk to the mirror for a bit.

That being said, the situation can be fixed quite easily.
Just make bastion module function like a cloak. I.e. you can de-activate it any time, but cannot switch it on again instantly, it takes a cooldown. THAT would be the interesting gameplay - both for PVE and PVP.

It's funny to read where people state that CCP is holding a gun to their heads and force them to go in to siege on their marauders.

Because you are unable NOT to use the bastion module right?

so shut up you ****** carebears