These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1601 - 2013-09-02 23:36:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
And what do you mean intel channels can't protect you from covert hotdrps and cloaky proteouses? They still show up in local, you're only screwed if they awox or come out of a wromhole in your system, but then again it would be really stupid to siege in an anom anyway. Maruader for plexes, pirate BS or other ship for anoms.


Well I was mostly talking about anoms, you could probably reach 75mil effective ticks with salvaging V if you were willing to risk it, as you have 95% the DPS of a Vindicator with a Kronos or even better DPS than a Nightmare (the new Paladin has 12,500 capacitor and an optimal bonus, you can blitz anoms with conflag) and you can salvage pretty much all of the battleships while you're killing your way through the anom.

As far as the rest, moving your ship from where it's docked to the L5 or plex location is really really dangerous. With that mass and 15-20sec align time, you're seriously vulnerable to login traps, which you can't scout. They can just leave a cloaked alt on the gate in an NPC or neutral corp to tackle you. Hell, with that align time they could use a ship with a protocloak and just have them bump you.
Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1602 - 2013-09-02 23:37:53 UTC
Mephrista wrote:
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:

Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you

just more of a visual learner


Imagine a 100km radius circle around your ship and another around where you want to get to - you need to jump to either of the 2 points where the edge of those 2 circles intersect and then jump back to your target.



Thanks, that help out alot



Don't forget the three minute cool down. You warp to your first spot... sit for 180 seconds doing nothing and then warp to the gate. That's if you nail it the first time.

I feel it's going to be mind numbing.


Except that at lvl 5 for the MJD skill, it's 57 seconds tween jumps. Faster than motoring 100m/s for 40KM. Lots faster.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1603 - 2013-09-02 23:38:37 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:
I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...

May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.


That's all well and good but we play in a universe where the majority of pve players don't know that the MJD lets you slip out from under npc "scrambling" or the power of a target lock breaker on accidental full room aggro or litterally hundreds of others module, ammo and tactical treats like that.

Unless a game sets things out for people like that perfectly, they'd never figure it out for themselves. Me personally I figured out the angled MJDing on day 2 after it's introduction, despite being the product of American public schools Cool . And the new maruaders will be able to do that much faster........

Much of the screeching about marauders and the bastion mod is just noise that will rightfully be ignored.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1604 - 2013-09-02 23:46:56 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
And what do you mean intel channels can't protect you from covert hotdrps and cloaky proteouses? They still show up in local, you're only screwed if they awox or come out of a wromhole in your system, but then again it would be really stupid to siege in an anom anyway. Maruader for plexes, pirate BS or other ship for anoms.


Well I was mostly talking about anoms, you could probably reach 75mil effective ticks with salvaging V if you were willing to risk it, as you have 95% the DPS of a Vindicator with a Kronos or even better DPS than a Nightmare (the new Paladin has 12,500 capacitor and an optimal bonus, you can blitz anoms with conflag) and you can salvage pretty much all of the battleships while you're killing your way through the anom.


I'll stick with my mach. Problem with the mach is that it couldn't solo escalations. Now i can use my Varg + scout for that.

Quote:

As far as the rest, moving your ship from where it's docked to the L5 or plex location is really really dangerous. With that mass and 15-20sec align time, you're seriously vulnerable to login traps, which you can't scout. They can just leave a cloaked alt on the gate in an NPC or neutral corp to tackle you. Hell, with that align time they could use a ship with a protocloak and just have them bump you.


Mwd cloak trick + the proper navigation/agility implants and fitting. It's why pirates gave up on catching my lvl5 rattlesnake YEARS ago :) . I've lost ONE in 3 years to a gate camp.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1605 - 2013-09-02 23:52:31 UTC
They added 3 1600mm plates worth of mass to the Marauders, you won't reach warp speed in an MWD cycle with an improved cloak.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1606 - 2013-09-03 00:03:00 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
They added 3 1600mm plates worth of mass to the Marauders, you won't reach warp speed in an MWD cycle with an improved cloak.

It is almost like they never want these ships to leave high sec.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1607 - 2013-09-03 00:06:21 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
They added 3 1600mm plates worth of mass to the Marauders, you won't reach warp speed in an MWD cycle with an improved cloak.

It is almost like they never want these ships to leave high sec.


Mission bears never leave high sec anyway. I'll still be using them in null though.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#1608 - 2013-09-03 00:19:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
They added 3 1600mm plates worth of mass to the Marauders, you won't reach warp speed in an MWD cycle with an improved cloak.

It is almost like they never want these ships to leave high sec.


Mission bears never leave high sec anyway. I'll still be using them in null though.



With unlimited ressources, that's hardly a tough call.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Cade Windstalker
#1609 - 2013-09-03 00:27:55 UTC
Mephrista wrote:

Don't forget the three minute cool down. You warp to your first spot... sit for 180 seconds doing nothing and then warp to the gate. That's if you nail it the first time.

I feel it's going to be mind numbing.


70% reduction in that timer so 54 seconds between jumps.

Also why do we care if these things are great for low/null PvE? A ship this expensive won't be taken out there unless it removes almost all risk, or at least enough to pay for itself before it dies. That's just not likely to happen. The best way to do low and null PvE will continue to be either doing it in the middle of your alliance space or with a competent fleet that can handle a PvP encounter and there is probably nothing CCP can do to change this that isn't game breaking. AKA removing all the risk from low or null PvE.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1610 - 2013-09-03 00:29:38 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:



With unlimited ressources, that's hardly a tough call.


I generally have to pay for all of my own ships and don't qualify for reimbursement on most of my fits.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1611 - 2013-09-03 00:34:16 UTC
Wizzard117 wrote:
2 cents
Default movement modes (warping, flying, jumping) does not require any fuel, but every other special movement type (siege mode etc.) does
Bastion mode is not a default way marauders fly, so for the sake of consistence it should consume some resources whether it's heavy water or ozone or whatever else
Adding extra fuel bay is a way to go



I have to second this but ether way I'm looking forward to playing around with them. Thx u for the much needed Improvements to Mauraders and target painters.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#1612 - 2013-09-03 00:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
baltec1 wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:



With unlimited ressources, that's hardly a tough call.


I generally have to pay for all of my own ships and don't qualify for reimbursement on most of my fits.



The largest and richest alliance in the game named their current fleet doctrine after you, so stop bull****ing please.

It's perfectly believeable you don't need any ship reimbursements and wouldn't qualify, but you'd still get them.

*please fully censor all profanity* - CCP Eterne
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1613 - 2013-09-03 00:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dalilus
Go to any mission hub and see what the carebears are flying, the Vargur is not it. With these changes the only thing a Vargur might be good for is high-sec grief-resitantcy or griefing POSs. Of course flying a slow, massive tub of metal with weak dps, low resolution, small drone bay and a huge tank might be exciting for some missioners there are better, faster, less intensive skill point ships to run them with.



Suppose a carebear is happily putting around in a Vargur SLOWLY killing npcs minding his business when a griefer squad shows up. No problem, turn on The Bastion, get the target spectrum analizer working, fire up the dual Pith X-type shield boosters (or dual asbs) and take a relaxing laugh waiting for Concord to do its job. Then continue missioning but instead of finishing missions quickly taking as long or longer than if a noob was running them. Unless the griefers brought along a LOT of firepower and want the killmail of a 5 billion+ ship. Oh the lolz.



The only ones happy with the changes are the nullbears and their high-sec griefer alts. You can tell by their posts. With the turn in a tag and gain sec status Tyrannosaur sized femur thrown to them last expansion they are very happy with where EVE is going. CCP might wanna start paying attention to what carebears want because in the last year or so carebears went from who cares what CCP and the CSM are coming out with it will be awesome to I better start reading and commenting on posts or CCP is going to nerf my playstile to favor the CSM nullbears even further. Don't believe me? Look at the posts in forums and the number passionate rants erased by the official censors due to whatever offended their sensibilities.



This dev post reminds me of the Youtube video of comedian Robin Williams explaining how the Irish came up with the game of golf. If only it were as funny.


Edit: A thought just ocurred to me.....is CCP going to make lvl 4 missions undoable with anything else but a marauder? Is that the endgame? Or maybe even lvl 5 missions in high-sec to add content for the uber sp carebear crowd with billions in the bank? After all they have buffed everything but high-sec.
Cade Windstalker
#1614 - 2013-09-03 00:36:55 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Wizzard117 wrote:
2 cents
Default movement modes (warping, flying, jumping) does not require any fuel, but every other special movement type (siege mode etc.) does
Bastion mode is not a default way marauders fly, so for the sake of consistence it should consume some resources whether it's heavy water or ozone or whatever else
Adding extra fuel bay is a way to go



I have to second this but ether way I'm looking forward to playing around with them. Thx u for the much needed Improvements to Mauraders and target painters.


Except that this would make them half useless for missions. It adds an expensive and hard to transport consumable to already resource and cargo dependent ships and another thing to manage which is frustrating.

To make up for this you would either have to make the resource consumption so low as to not matter in which case why even bother with the fuel in the first place?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1615 - 2013-09-03 00:58:26 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:



The largest and richest alliance in the game named their current fleet doctrine after you, so stop bullshitting please.

It's perfectly believeable you don't need any ship reimbursements and wouldn't qualify, but you'd still get them.


I get peacetime on megathrons. Last I looked it was 60 mil. The only full reimbursement is for mefleet fits but I went and got a navy mega so again I don't get full reimbursement.

Not that it matters, they tend to have long lives.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#1616 - 2013-09-03 00:59:37 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes.

Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is P


your fit looks pretty sound only nitpick would be use a tech 2 burst aerator, and could probably get by with even less tank (aka 4th damage mod!).

but I'd say the thing that matters most is completion times. just saying the npcs got slaughtered doesn't mean anything.

your vargur numbers are very nearly the same as what I get on tq (with lower dps even)

golem numbers need specifications on the rigs, I'm sure many of us still have missile velocity rigs, which I think will be best as a 5x tp fit will be lollerskates to run now. anyways the faction torps should hit what 45km or so? although I would also like to see the numbers with a t2 bay loading accelerator and a t1 bay thruster.

paladin I see 1146 gun dps with 4 heat sinks, t2 burst aerator, and 5% gunnery and large energy turret implants. "at 67km range + 52 Falloff." is lulz! kronos fit the same way only does 1185 at "18.82km + 57.6km with Null" with your figures.

as you say "It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting." well paladin will for the most part keep its mobility, it won't need to drop into bastion mode all that often I think, and projection hahahaha the paladin has a metric butt ton, time spent shooting, uber fast crystal swaps, and no reloading another paladin win!

I'm super excited about the paladin, still a meh about the kronos, and as far as I'm concerned the changes mean almost nothing for the golem or vargur.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#1617 - 2013-09-03 01:12:55 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....

Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills

And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.


"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"

well i think i'm done here.



i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess.



You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls Blink


~100 dps difference on just the guns, now add in 4x sentries on the mach. mobility difference will be greater with the change aside from a few situations where a MJD makes sense. Damage application is a bit better, but with that mobility difference I'm not sure a few km of falloff makes a big difference here. More tank is kinda irrelevant as the mach and varg both have plenty already. EW immunity can be big in some areas, but in a bunch of missions that doesn't matter. Less ammo consumption sounds like a plus, but with less dps and theoretically slower completion times it might not even matter.

tractor beam range useful in a few spots (rogue slave traders pt1 it is great as the loot can is right at 40-50km), but I'd still rather come back with a noctis (even better have a noctics alt one room behind) as marauder tractor beams suck vs a noctis. Heck maybe with the machs agility/speed the tractor bonus doesn't even make a marauder better at that mission. MJD bonus again not really all that relevant in most places imo.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Marius Giarc
Giarc Innovations
#1618 - 2013-09-03 02:14:28 UTC
So finally got round to reading the proposed re-balance to the Marauder class...

I am... disappointed, to put it politely.

Ever since they were released in Trinity back in December 2007, Marauders have always been first and foremost a PvE boat.

Marauders were never PvP ships. Reasons for this were simple. Beyond the obvious intensive SP and ISK cost which made their use in for PvP prohibitively expensive, the Marauders were plagued with:
1. Weak Sensor Strength, usually ~60% of the Tech 1 hulls. "jam me now and forever":
2. Huge Signature Radius, usually ~40% greater than T1 and Navy variants:
3. Lack of Power grid for Cap Warfare or Shield/Capacitor Transfers or Remote Reps in Utility Highs. And finally;
4. 7.5% bonus per level to local Reps, whereas PvP vessels utilized Buffer Tanks and Remote Reps.

Not to mention there are simply so many more cheaper, better and more specialized hulls to choose from.

Marauders have always been a niche PvE boat. They offered 50% reduced ammo consumption, a slight increase in DPS over Navy Issues back then, bonus's to local Reps for Active Tanks, and the 100% tractor bonus allowed you to loot/salvage as you went.

The alternative option to loot/salvage back then was a Salvage Destroyer fit (remember those?). The Tractor bonus has become much less useful since the advent of the Noctis back with Trinity in 2010, bar edge cases such as the Epic Arc's.
But again, loot/salvage during with Marauder or after with Noctis is personal preference.


Personally, I've been able to fly Marauders for 5 years, mainly the Golem and Vargur. I've always fit them for a mix of Firepower, Protection and Mobility. DPS Projection and the ability to Tank damage has never been an issue. With a Tech II fit you're good, with Faction you're great.

Dependent on the Marauder and the fit, they can pull over 400 m/s, allowing the ability to close with or disengage at will. Fight at range or grab them by the throat. Didn't matter which. Light Drones for those Elite Frigate bastards.

But that's just me, I like a fast, flexible approach to my PvE boats. Fly the Marauder how you want to. Or a Faction BS, or Pirate. Your Choice.


So when I heard about a Marauder 'Rebalance' I was quietly hopeful the Marauders weaknesses in Powergrid, Signature Radius and above all, Sensor Strength, would be resolved.

Powergrid. Buffed.
Signature Radius. Buffed.
Sensor Strength. Still borked. Ugh.
Wait...
Drones Bay & Bandwidth. Nerfed.
Base Velocity. Nerfed by 19-23%... WTF?

So basically the Marauder rebalancing proposal is to take a fairly fast, flexible PvE boat in line with the Attack Battleship it's based upon, and turn it into a brick... actually slower than the current T1 Combat Battleship bricks like the Rokh.

Then you add the new 'Bastion' module...
And a Micro jump Drive...


Okay, let me see if I'm getting this right... the new re-balanced Marauder is now designed to work purely as either a completely immobile brick in Bastion or 'Tortoise' mode, where you just sit there and take a beating while pressing F1, before 'Transforming' and performing a MJD 'hop' 100km away, or 'Hare' mode, which with the cut in base mobility, seems designed as it's new primary mode of mobility.

Tortoise, Hare... Tortoise, Hare... **** that's annoying.

Instead of a Sensor strength rebalance (Still Borked) to alleviate the Perma-jamming Guristas bastards & other EWAR issues, now I simply activate Bastion mode for EWAR Immunity, as apparently the concept of EWAR versus reasonable Sensor strength wouldn't be doing it right...

Instead of killing Elite Frigs with my Light Drones (Drone Nerf) I simply 'Hop' 100km away then kill them with my Guns/Missiles as they re-approach, as apparently Light Drones isn't doing it right...

And finally, Instead of simply lighting a Propulsion module and burning directly to a gate (Mobility Nerf) now I simply perform two MJD hops, utilizing my Degree in Advanced Trigonometry, as apparently select gate hit 'Approach', light prop mod isn't doing it right...

Unless you fit both MJD and MWD if you ever want to get anywhere, which is going to **** your capacitor...

Okay... One final question.

Are you ****ing kidding me?


And yes. I have read CCP ytterbium's post #1512 on using a Marauder in PvE post changes. And it sounds soooo... boring.

Marauders. Push (Bastion) Button. Receive (PvE) Bacon.



Well... I've had some fun with Marauders over the years, but with these changes,.. I think I'll pass, Thanks. I'll stick with the fast, flexible and above all FUN Attack Battleship option and Fly Navy. Or pick up a Pirate. Yarr!


Fly safe... or sit like a brick. Your choice I guess.
CEALAlatriste
Taberna del Turco
#1619 - 2013-09-03 02:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: CEALAlatriste
Jenn aSide wrote:


So TWO more dps ships won't matter? And Blapping frigs with ACs instead of 3-2-2 arties from machs (think rate of fire)?

What VGs are you flying in?



100 MicroWarpDrive Pirate Hull VG Fleet. You can stay at beacon in bastion mode blapping the frigates of the first spawn. Meanwhile mwd fleet moves to 2º and 3º spawn killing all the sanshas at optimal close range (way more effective dps than projected) before your bastion marauder fleet can even target them, because your sensor sucks and even with a sensor booster a marauder is slower than a pirate ship (yeah, pirate ships fit sebo too).

Thats for Overray Transfer Array. In Nation Mining Colony is same history: your bastion marauder fleet stays at beacon meanwhile mwd fleet moves to next spawns, everything is dead before you can target, bla bla bla. But, when every sansha is dead you have to put 255 units of lyavite in a can that is 80km away. You dont have logis, so a marauder uses its mjd to get there. First you must get your normal status, because you cant use mjd in bastion mode. Also, you cant do it in one jump because will overshoot the can by 20km and slowboating is not an option. So you do triangulation (or whatever) to get there in 2 mjd jumps.

Meanwhile, the scimitar of mwd fleet started its burn towards the can in the last spawn, and its already there when the last sansha dies. The fleet alings to next site and the logi drops the ore. The marauder fleet is still in bastion mode when the mwd fleet lands in next site.

And finally, the Nation Commander Outpost. Well, you think, my bastion marauder fleet is going to own you here, because there is no where to go. No cans, no towers to approach to, only 4 massive frigate spawns from everywhere in the room so everybody stands still in a NCO.

And the race begins. MWD fleet targets and tries to kill as many sanshas as possible meanwhile bastion marauder fleet is still in transformation, they are so cool.... But the transformation ends and boom: 1 sansha get down, boom 2º sansha, 3º ,4º... every shoot of bastion marauder fleet is blapping a sansha frig, deleting 1/3 of the spawn.

But the other 2/3 is already orbiting very close to you with mwd on at 1500m/s. Dont worry, we will use our webs to... oh wait! you dont have web bonus. Nevermind, nobody uses webs in contest because they boost our dps and the enemy fleet dps too. So we will blap that sansha with our superior tracking marauder bonus... oh wait! their vindicators have the same tracking bonus than our marauders and they also have 2 logistics with 6 faction tracking links that boost the other ships with 35% more tracking each.

So yeah, you lose. Again.

Next time play the thing before write a theorical opinion about it.

Regards.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#1620 - 2013-09-03 02:39:07 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:
I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...

May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.


if I jump 100km from the warp in then I'm probably doing less dps to the npcs, it is probably better to warp in and use an AB or MWD to approach the gate while shooting the npcs. the triangle is useful when afking with a domi or rattler, but a marauder not so much.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter