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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1581 - 2013-09-02 22:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Large Collidable Object wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:



You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls Blink


Yeah - got that - no problem if they're not better (you did a pretty great job at not making any T2 ship better than T1, tbh), but what's the reasoning behind higher skill time, associated skillbook cost and higher hull cost then?

I have no problem with that on my noob alt - I just wont train any T2 ships on it - simple as that. At around 60 mill SP, training is done and that's that.

However you massively devalued my older chars. Two with all racial HAC V (which is now a useless skill), all racial CS V (not good before, still 'meh' after the changes) and now one with all racial Marauders V.

And what's that about how you can do L4's in them? Any complete moron can do them perfectly fine in almost any hull - for faster completion times, I'd still use an MWD mach because the MJD and bastion mod will just slow down my completion time.

If T2 hulls aren't better, just seed the BPOs on the open market, make them have the same build cost as T1, remove the T2 ship skills and add them to the T1 roster. You can keep my SP - at least my clones will be a lot cheaper.


i tend to agree. If this ship is going to be just "ok" in terms of comparing it to pirate, it should be just as cheap as t1. Like t2 guns vs faction guns vs meta guns....

i dont WANT to make it cheaper, i WANT to make it better - but at least it would make sense for balancing

While your at it make all t2 and t3 cheap. It would have the added bonus of making moon goo worthless :D
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1582 - 2013-09-02 22:28:09 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aglais wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.


The only rage I'm seeing is from people who don't think these Marauders will have what it takes for PvP. They're going to be awkward and gimmicky, and probably not all that hard to kill (Just throw together a bunch of Tornadoes for maybe half the price), for a 1 billion ISK price tag.



Well I would expect a bunch of tornadoes to be a threat because there is a bunch of them. Price tags mean nothing in balance terms.


price tag means nothing....

Excellent, pirate ships should be same as t1, GO


The are indeed being balanced against t1 ships. We already know the cynable is in line for a nerf.
Guy en Gravonere
Gravonere Industries
#1583 - 2013-09-02 22:47:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Guy en Gravonere
These are some really interesting changes, and I've been trying to get an idea of how well they'll perform by adding the tank and local rep bonuses to what the hulls are capable of now, which led me to an interesting discovery.

If I'm multiplying the bonuses properly, a Vargur fit with dual X-L ASBs, a pair of invulnerability fields, a shield Amplifier(This leaves one midslot for a prop mod) and a Damage control could potentially overheat and tank around 11,000 DPS until the ASBs run out of charges. One could also run a single ASB at a time, for a mere 5,500 DPS tank. That's without any sort of faction/deadspace/officer modules, which means a pimped out version could be truly ridiculous.

This is all tempered somewhat by the fact that at least one, maybe two, of the slots used on tank would likely be required for any PvP use besides straight up bait, but its still going to be an unbelievably hard to kill ship. So much so that I think it might be worth looking into decreasing CPU a little bit, to make dual ASB setups harder to fit.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1584 - 2013-09-02 22:49:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.


i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused.

Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this.

I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions.

I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1585 - 2013-09-02 22:54:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.


i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused.

Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this.

I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions.

I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.


current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1586 - 2013-09-02 22:54:51 UTC
Guy en Gravonere wrote:
These are some really interesting changes, and I've been trying to get an idea of how well they'll perform by adding the tank and local rep bonuses to what the hulls are capable of now, which led me to an interesting discovery.

If I'm multiplying the bonuses properly, a Vargur fit with dual X-L ASBs, a pair of invulnerability fields, a shield Amplifier(This leaves one midslot for a prop mod) and a Damage control could potentially overheat and tank around 11,000 DPS until the ASBs run out of charges. One could also run a single ASB at a time, for a mere 5,500 DPS tank. That's without any sort of faction/deadspace/officer modules, which means a pimped out version could be truly ridiculous.

This is all tempered somewhat by the fact that at least one, maybe two, of the slots used on tank would likely be required for any PvP use besides straight up bait, but its still going to be an unbelievably hard to kill ship. So much so that I think it might be worth looking into decreasing CPU a little bit, to make dual ASB setups harder to fit.


5500 dps tank is nothing. Try this one with a blue pill and a fleet booster:

[Golem, space hedgehog of doom]

4x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile)
2x Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Nosferatu II

2x X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 400)
2x Gistum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist X-Type EM Ward Field
Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Warp Scrambler II

Damage Control II
3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Processor Overclocking Unit II

5x Hobgoblin II

overheat one invulnerability field and alternate the ASBs for a 10,000 dps perma-tank with 864dps output and a scram + 2 neuts.

With a bastion module, it'll tank 26000dps. more than a carrier.

The problem is ASBs - they need to be limited to 1 per ship.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#1587 - 2013-09-02 22:57:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.


i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused.

Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this.

I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions.

I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.



Sorry, the problem is the "bastion" cycle time. 60 seconds are too long for many things you can do. WH people are very fast and educated in scanning a ship down, when you cathed you are dead no matter what you think you can tank. in normal 0.0 you need only one tackle with a cyno, low sec the same.
Make the "Basiton" modul with a shut on/off mechanik and no delay time, then it will be used. Maybe make "Bastion" moduls for PVE and PVP with other bonuses for the ship.
GallowsCalibrator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1588 - 2013-09-02 22:58:57 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Guy en Gravonere wrote:


[Golem, space hedgehog of doom]

... snip ...
overheat one invulnerability field and alternate the ASBs for a 10,000 dps perma-tank with 864dps output and a scram + 2 neuts.

With a bastion module, it'll tank 26000dps. more than a carrier.


ASBs by their nature are not permatank.

[quote=baltec1]
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.


This has to be another honeypot thread, seriously. (The only changed Marauder that gives me pause is the Golem, but that's only because I still have a warm, fuzzy spot for torps even though 99/100 times cruises are the better option for anything. Ever. But goddamn is the Vargur going to be a killdozer)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1589 - 2013-09-02 22:59:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.


The problem is most don't ever have to think outside of whatever the top 3 battleclinic fits are and their tactics are whatever the mission guides tell them.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#1590 - 2013-09-02 23:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.


i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused.

Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this.

I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions.

I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.


current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies.


True and with web removal it will be fun seeing dual web marauders struggling to kill stuff in mining colonies and NCOs especialy... not saying they wont work but saying it will be effective is a stretch..only thing marauders will be good at is opening door to IsBoxers.

I still think that nerf on they stock hit points is bad move as well as nerfing speed / agility for sole purpose of forcing certain play stile on people.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1591 - 2013-09-02 23:03:02 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:
I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...

May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.

.



Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you

just more of a visual learner
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1592 - 2013-09-02 23:05:56 UTC
Hanna Cyrus wrote:

Sorry, the problem is the "bastion" cycle time. 60 seconds are too long for many things you can do. WH people are very fast and educated in scanning a ship down, when you cathed you are dead no matter what you think you can tank. in normal 0.0 you need only one tackle with a cyno, low sec the same.
Make the "Basiton" modul with a shut on/off mechanik and no delay time, then it will be used. Maybe make "Bastion" moduls for PVE and PVP with other bonuses for the ship.


Just to put the record straight, wormhole gank squads will only scan you down if they have no other option - i.e. you are in a signature that they did not scan down before you logged on.

Usually we just follow you into an anomaly with a scout ship and call in the hictor drop on the scout.

Unless you have our wormhole covered with a scout of your own you have maximum 15 seconds to react *if* you see the hictor on d-scan while it's on final approach.

Whatever the bastion cycle time, optimistic marauder pilots will die in droves in wormhole space as things stand.

I am looking forward to it, since expensive ships often drop expensive modules.

I have maintained throughout this thread, and I still maintain, that if we want to see more marauders ratting in lowsec, nullsec and w-space, their bonus needs to be based on mobility - not standing still.

Speaking as someone who makes a living from destroying ships that stand still too long...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1593 - 2013-09-02 23:12:55 UTC
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:

Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you

just more of a visual learner


Imagine a 100km radius circle around your ship and another around where you want to get to - you need to jump to either of the 2 points where the edge of those 2 circles intersect and then jump back to your target.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1594 - 2013-09-02 23:15:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.


i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused.

Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this.

I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions.

I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.


Like I said before, the problem is if you use this in 0.0, WHs, or lowsec, you're going to get ganked. Your intel channels and alt scouts can't protect you from covert hotdrops and cloaky Proteuses.

So, it theoretically doubles your 0.0 PvE income? Doesn't matter, you're just going to get killed. Unlike nullsec anoms, plexes, and L5s, L4 missions are easy enough that the bastion module is not needed to run with max gank, meaning it does not help much.

In the current state they're a good upgrade for incursions, but you simply can't use them in most of the places where they would be a huge improvement.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1595 - 2013-09-02 23:18:53 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The rage from the pve crowd is hilarious in here.


i'm part of that PVe crowd and I'm not raging. I'm confused.

Confused at how CCP can bascially THROW overpower pve ships at PVE players and those pve players not be smart ebough to see the gift their being given. In the same way so many people were dead wrong about the Navy ship reblancing (which turned out to be beyond awesome), they're wrong about this.

I mean really, incursion runners can't figure out that 10 sieged Maruders will have higher VG completion times than the current 7 dps ships + 3 logi (and none of this stops anyone from continuing to use Pirtat ships for HQs)? Null PVE's can't understand that Marauders would be able to devote more room to tracking mods because of elss need for tank on top of the other application bonuses that will make short work of everything from forsaken hubs and up? Complex runners don't get how you can solo tank a citidel torp with a standing still BS, ignore all the dps, kill the stations, loot with 40km tractor and worp off? No even gonna mention lvl 5 missions.

I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.


current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies.


So TWO more dps ships won't matter? And Blapping frigs with ACs instead of 3-2-2 arties from machs (think rate of fire)?

What VGs are you flying in?

No, you're simply looking for a reason to dislike the changes, the truth is that these new maruaders will probably lead to isk inflation as people discover what you can do with them.
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1596 - 2013-09-02 23:19:51 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:

Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you

just more of a visual learner


Imagine a 100km radius circle around your ship and another around where you want to get to - you need to jump to either of the 2 points where the edge of those 2 circles intersect and then jump back to your target.



Thanks, that help out alot
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1597 - 2013-09-02 23:25:39 UTC
Xequecal wrote:


Like I said before, the problem is if you use this in 0.0, WHs, or lowsec, you're going to get ganked. Your intel channels and alt scouts can't protect you from covert hotdrops and cloaky Proteuses.


Nonsense, it takes more than a minute for someone to probe you down, make it through the adjoining rooms and tackle you in the last room of a maze (for example) and only then if the pilots know which gates to use. And if you're picking the right lvl 5s you won't need to be there longer than the minute a bastion cycle would take.

And what do you mean intel channels can't protect you from covert hotdrps and cloaky proteouses? They still show up in local, you're only screwed if they awox or come out of a wromhole in your system, but then again it would be really stupid to siege in an anom anyway. Maruader for plexes, pirate BS or other ship for anoms.

Quote:

So, it theoretically doubles your 0.0 PvE income? Doesn't matter, you're just going to get killed. Unlike nullsec anoms, plexes, and L5s, L4 missions are easy enough that the bastion module is not needed to run with max gank, meaning it does not help much.


Show me exactly where ccps says you HAVE to use the module? Even so, I can think of a half dozen mission rooms where it would be faster than doing anything else. AE bonus room, the hell room of enemies abound, smash the supplier ect ect

Quote:

In the current state they're a good upgrade for incursions, but you simply can't use them in most of the places where they would be a huge improvement.


This is simply a demonstration of what I just said: it's not that the idea is bad, it's that the players aren't creative enough to figure out proper usage.
Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1598 - 2013-09-02 23:29:19 UTC
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
I've seen a bunch of ppl complain that the MJD isn't suited for lvl4 gates because the gates aren't exactly 100KM off...

May I introduce the concept of the TRIANGLE? 3-sided shape. Should be familiar. Pick an acute angle such that jumping BACK will make the 3rd leg of the triangle whatever distance you need? I know. Takes some reckoning skill but surely it's better than doing 6KM/minute (~100m/s). With some practice jumping twice will land you on a gate or wreck or whatever in 2 minutes.

.



Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you

just more of a visual learner


Take 2 chopsticks of equal length. Call that 100KM long. Those are your two MJD jumps. Now, split them so that they're two legs of a triangle. You figure the angle, whatever that is. You can end up 10KM from your start point or 190KM. The 'box' on acceleration gate is what, 10KM by 20KM on a side? Shouldn't be hard to hit.
Mephrista
The Shadows In The Warp
#1599 - 2013-09-02 23:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mephrista
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso wrote:

Can you post a vid on youtube showing how this is done? thank you

just more of a visual learner


Imagine a 100km radius circle around your ship and another around where you want to get to - you need to jump to either of the 2 points where the edge of those 2 circles intersect and then jump back to your target.



Thanks, that help out alot



Don't forget the three minute cool down. You warp to your first spot... sit for 180 seconds doing nothing and then warp to the gate. That's if you nail it the first time.

I feel it's going to be mind numbing.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1600 - 2013-09-02 23:31:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


I'm serious when i say that any PVEr complaining about what ccp is doing is simply and incredibly uncreative. This is why ccp tends to ignore imput, because time and time and time and time again the players have been wrong about the outcome of changes.


The problem is most don't ever have to think outside of whatever the top 3 battleclinic fits are and their tactics are whatever the mission guides tell them.


I know. That's why i think these new maruauders will get nerfed to hell once the truly creative players get an actual hold on them.

I'm already trying to figure out a overtanked "tinker tanking" dual Varg set up for anomalies that would convince all but the strongest hotdropping fleets to go away when they realize they couldn't kill me. Have already done it with buffer fit remote repping triple domis, but I woulda tinker tanked them had i had access to a bastion module back then lol.