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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1521 - 2013-09-02 18:38:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....

Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills

And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.






"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"

well i think i'm done here.



i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess.



You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls Blink


after thinking about it, i see how perhaps this is even better - even faster - in L4s solo than pirate due to application.....

But then again i cheat. And by cheat i mean i dualbox missions - i used to run a vargur and a nightmare so that i could apply my damage effectively at multiple ranges. If there was ewar only 1 of my dudes was shut down, if i needed tank i would capchain them and self rep. If i needed to move a distance, i would mwd while capchained. So if you have 1 freind, or if you have 1 alt, then all of the advantages of the new marauder no longer matter, and you lose mobility or midslots when dualproping. (what i mean, is that 2 pirate hulls would be better than 2 marauders, while 1 marauder will be better than 1 pirate hull)

Ok, maybe it is (possibly) better in L4s solo and i shouldnt be complaining, but.... i can still do better with pirate / oldmarauder


But then again maybe the application via moving (and not standint still like the marauder) would be higher application.... come to think of it, whenever you MJD you will be out of your increased range so even the APPLICATION of the lower dps, will be lower
Cade Windstalker
#1522 - 2013-09-02 18:38:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
so pirate battleships still do more dps, and still have useful bonuses (eg web bonuses) so you'll never bother with a marauder in incursions.

won't waste my time training for a marauder then.


Because no one ever dropped a damage mod for more tracking in Incursions?

Never mind the good base resists, fourShocked utility mids and solid slot layout.

The speed is something of an issue but if you can cap-chain with another Marauder you can probably perma-run anything you like up to and including a MWD as well as save the entire fleet if a Logi gets jammed at the wrong time. Maybe you do a little less DPS but that's a fine tradeoff if you tank a little better and don't have to worry about neuts ever.
Dave stark
#1523 - 2013-09-02 18:40:09 UTC
Shadalana wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)

    • srsly? even a kronos reaches with Federation Navy Antimatter ~48km...


    how much dps is a golem doing at 37k vs a kronos at 37k? i'm guessing the optimal on a kronos is not 37k.
    hmskrecik
    TransMine Group
    Gluten Free Cartel
    #1524 - 2013-09-02 18:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null

    Ooooh... You sir know how to make Gallente pilot wet.

    [Edit] Also
    Quote:
    Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.

    Please discuss it well. I may be old school but I prefer to be given once and given second time, not given once and then have taken away.
    Dave stark
    #1525 - 2013-09-02 18:45:30 UTC
    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    Dave Stark wrote:
    so pirate battleships still do more dps, and still have useful bonuses (eg web bonuses) so you'll never bother with a marauder in incursions.

    won't waste my time training for a marauder then.


    Because no one ever dropped a damage mod for more tracking in Incursions?

    Never mind the good base resists, fourShocked utility mids and solid slot layout.

    The speed is something of an issue but if you can cap-chain with another Marauder you can probably perma-run anything you like up to and including a MWD as well as save the entire fleet if a Logi gets jammed at the wrong time. Maybe you do a little less DPS but that's a fine tradeoff if you tank a little better and don't have to worry about neuts ever.


    you mean the same utility slots that a vindiator has more of, and gets bonuses to?

    if a logi gets jammed then i suggest people start learning how to shoot tagged targets.
    doing less dps isn't fine, it just slows down every site and makes every one else in the group earn less isk. at best it's selfish and at worst it's stupid.
    marVLs
    #1526 - 2013-09-02 18:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: marVLs
    But why just why those tank bonuses in bastion? For what they are?


    • LVL4? they don't need more tank
    • Incursions? ... rly need to explain? no one will use them, especially without web bonuses, and drone nerf
    • PVP? for what? no RReps, they will die from alpha, or don't be so useful beacause of "no move" mode with this DPS


    I think the best thing is to give marauders T2 resists, boost more scan res, but change bastion so it gives nothing to tank, but boost DPS, ranges, tracking, expl radius etc. (ofcourse RReps will not be banned in that mode)

    Here You go, more usefull in missions etc, useful in Incursions, and in PVP, now it's worth to bring over 1Bil ship T2 into PVP. OP? Why? they can still die from alpha (small buffer) and can't move in bastion.

    I bet everyone here would prefer that, otherwise still Pirate BS's and even Navy BS's will perform better... everywhere...

    CCP Ytterbium You forget that doing over 9000! missions over and over again is boring, so players want to do them with minimal effort, why should i jump in pockets, get reduction in damage because of falloff etc. when i can go with RNI that will aplly more damage and better and in more relaxing way that Marauders.
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #1527 - 2013-09-02 18:53:16 UTC
    marVLs wrote:
    But why just why those tank bonuses in bastion? For what they are?


    • LVL4? they don't need more tank
    • Incursions? ... rly need to explain? no one will use them, especially without web bonuses, and drone nerf
    • PVP? for what? no RReps, they will die from alpha, or don't be so useful beacause of "no move" mode with this DPS


    I think the best thing is to give marauders T2 resists, boost more scan res, but change bastion so it gives nothing to tank, but boost DPS, ranges, tracking, expl radius etc. (ofcourse RReps will not be banned in that mode)

    Here You go, more usefull in missions etc, useful in Incursions, and in PVP, now it's worth to bring over 1Bil ship T2 into PVP. OP? Why? they can still die from alpha (small buffer) and can't move in bastion.

    I bet everyone here would prefer that, otherwise still Pirate BS's and even Navy BS's will perform better... everywhere...

    CCP Ytterbium You forget that in doing over 9000! missions over and over again is boring, so players want to do them with minimal effort, why should i jump in pockets, get reduction in damage because of falloff etc. when i can go with RNI that will aplly more damage and better and in more relaxing way that Marauders.


    i agree but...
    "we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"
    Dave stark
    #1528 - 2013-09-02 18:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
    Battle Cube wrote:
    "we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"


    this is probably the only bonus that's worth the drawbacks. otherwise the module is either a death sentence, or the job it's doing will simply be done better by other ships.

    unless you're doing l4 missions, which the marauders are already very good at.
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #1529 - 2013-09-02 18:56:04 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Battle Cube wrote:
    "we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"


    this is probably the only bonus that's worth the drawbacks. otherwise the module is either a death sentence, or the job it's doing will simply be done better by other ships.

    unless you're doing l4 missions, which the marauders are already very good at.


    no argument here.
    Galdrak
    Interplanetary Trade Federation
    #1530 - 2013-09-02 18:58:17 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes.

    Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is P


    KRONOMNOMNOS:

    High:
    4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II
    1x Salvager II
    2x Small Tractor Beams II
    1x Bastion transformerthingie™ Module

    Med:
    1x Large Micro Jump Drive
    1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II
    1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800)
    1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts)

    Low:
    1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
    2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
    3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    1x Tracking Enhancer II

    Rigs:
    1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
    1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I

    Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter.


    With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null Shocked Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything.

    I typically use rails on my mission Kronos on TQ (I've got all 4 Marauders on one of my characters), but with this kind of projection I'll switch to blasters. Oh yes, my precious. So fresh, so shiny, oh yes precious blaster cannons, tastes like a delicious croissant. And the above setup can be pimped more. It's something I've put in 5mins, pretty sure it's not optimized and you'll find holes in it. Who cares, you get the idea.


    How to wreck things in missions?

    Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.

    If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them.

    Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course.


    Other examples in Bastion (main weapon damage only, no drones here with tech2 weapons, faction WU mods similar on the Kronos setup above). Numbers may be off depending on setup / typos, I'll leave you guys to correct me.


    • Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
    • Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
    • Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
    • Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
    • Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
    • Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff


      • Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable Evil), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.


      So while there are still concerns for PvP, I don't think you realize how efficient those things are for PvE. We feel like Dr. Frankenstein looking at a slab with a half-decaying corpses coming back to life. We've created monsters. Mission / PvE efficiency is not all about pure damage. It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting. MJD + MWD helps with the first, Bastion plus new Kronos / Paladin bonuses give the second and EW immunity grants you the last.

      As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.

    [/url].



    glad to see testing feedback try a vg site in an incursion if you will,
    Shadalana
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #1531 - 2013-09-02 19:00:46 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    Shadalana wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)

    • srsly? even a kronos reaches with Federation Navy Antimatter ~48km...


    how much dps is a golem doing at 37k vs a kronos at 37k? i'm guessing the optimal on a kronos is not 37k.


    a kronos does 20% mehr dps mit faction ammo, has 25% more range with faction and does this damag instant...and of course no defender...

    so i guess:
    golem at 37km: 750 dps
    kronos: ~700 dps instant...and the ability to shoot at 45km, much more worth...
    Dave stark
    #1532 - 2013-09-02 19:08:49 UTC
    excuse the ignorance, i rarely fly missile boats; but why has the golem just lost 25% of it's dps?
    Shantetha
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1533 - 2013-09-02 19:10:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Shantetha
    Galdrak wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:




    [list]
  • Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
  • Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
  • Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
  • Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
  • Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
  • Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff


    • Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable Evil), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.




    glad to see testing feedback try a vg site in an incursion if you will,


    i would also like to see how a paladin fairs in an incursion site, considering the current armor vs shield imbalance in incursions already.

    also current paladin with proper implants paper dps for 1500 with conflag and 1300 with imp navy multifreq at 19+15 km
    marVLs
    #1534 - 2013-09-02 19:10:37 UTC
    Because torps are bad, everyone know that besides CCP P they desperately need range buff (at least 50% but not to velo, buff flight time so they wont be OP), besides Rage could use small radius reduction and exp speed buff. And that number of torpedoes in bay... rly need a lot more
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #1535 - 2013-09-02 19:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.


    what if you guys made a script then?

    one optimal/falloff range the other tracking nerf but damage increase...

    that way you can either choose damage projection or increased damage but can not have both.

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Nano Quantum
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #1536 - 2013-09-02 19:14:14 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes.

    Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is P.............

    ..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

    Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post).


    Also, here is a preview of the transformation mode on the Kronos.

    Fair enough as such given that this is a PVE post how much longer did it take for you to tractor and salvage the rooms with the various ships. Given that the ships are being made less mobile via base speed nerf and the Bastion conversion mechanics. Would you say finishing a room with loot and salvage included was faster using the proposed Marauders or slower?
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #1537 - 2013-09-02 19:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
    MeBiatch wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.


    what if you guys made a script then?

    one optimal/falloff range the other tracking nerf but damage increase...

    that way you can either choose damage projection or increased damage but can not have both.


    that would be a good way to make it more similar to a mini-dread concept and would make it viable in incursions, even with the RR problem if the possible dps was enough, then players would find a way. (yay high risk high reward) A lot like how the vindi's applied dps due to range is absurd, but its very popular in incursions.
    Shadalana
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #1538 - 2013-09-02 19:20:39 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    excuse the ignorance, i rarely fly missile boats; but why has the golem just lost 25% of it's dps?


    defender...common weapon of npcs...
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #1539 - 2013-09-02 19:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
    Battle Cube wrote:
    MeBiatch wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.


    what if you guys made a script then?

    one optimal/falloff range the other tracking nerf but damage increase...

    that way you can either choose damage projection or increased damage but can not have both.


    that would be a good way to make it more similar to a mini-dread concept and would make it viable in incursions, even with the RR problem if the possible dps was enough, then players would find a way. (yay high risk high reward) A lot like how the vindi's applied dps due to range is absurd, but its very popular in incursions.


    this is what i am thinking

    so script one:
    Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
    Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%

    Script two:
    Increases all large turret damage by 25%
    Increases all large missile damage by 25%
    Decreases all large turret tracking by 50%
    Decreases all large missile explosion velocity and increase to explosion radius by 25%

    without a script:
    Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 12.5%
    Increases all large missile max velocity by 12.5%
    Increases all large turret damage by 12.5%
    Increases all large missile damage by 12.5%
    Decreases all large turret tracking by 25%
    Decreases all large missile explosion velocity and increase to explosion radius by 12.5%

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Stephen Goto
    Spanked and Straddled
    #1540 - 2013-09-02 19:32:47 UTC
    This will be great for taking down a d*ck stick in low sec with a million and one ECM mods.

    And as far as dealing with frigs in PvE, micro jump drive, duh. Add distance and snipe away. They disrupt, not scram, so you're still good.

    And please, please give it some other bonus besides tractor beam, its outdated by the noctis, and so far not such a big fan base for them... Just saying.

    Also do Gang links in Bastion mode still work?

    (Maybe redesign the marauders for optimal cool factor on transformation? Petty, but still curious)