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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Caprice Azar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1201 - 2013-09-01 00:34:31 UTC
A vote in favour of not cutting the tractor beam - main reason I am skilling into marauders is so I can grab a little extra isk from the anoms I'm doing, but normal 20km tractors don't reach far enough or the 2 gun slots used by the tractor/salvager eat too much dps. Running a noctis around afterward isn't appealing (I do occasionally when I need some salvage for rigs, but don't like it).

By no means am I thinking I'd salvage the whole site, but there's a bit of down time between targeting a wave & finishing blapping I can spend on salvage - more reason for active playing than afking.

40km is more than enough range, although that doesn't rule out an increase.
Cade Windstalker
#1202 - 2013-09-01 00:44:00 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

I feel like you are entirely missing the point of the original comment. His implication was that 800 Autocannons would apply damage as well as medium blasters. This is blatantly false.


On a tricked out vargur say versus a deimos - given both having same on paper dps and ignoring resists against say a crucifier the only thing thats different is the range at which the crucifier can get under their guns - on optimal the damage application is as close as makes no difference identical (yes it really is).


Cade Windstalker wrote:

Not really, if anything it becomes more relevant because it becomes harder to get additional boosts to tracking and you start losing a larger relative percentage of damage to signature resolution. Due to stacking penalties at a certain point you're likely to be better off adding a Target Painter than another tracking computer depending on the signature size of the target.


Thats true to a certain extent but for most intents and purposes if your not having to worry about tracking then sig differences make very little odds in damage application - the formula does not work the way people think it does.


For a start, I'm actually very well versed in how the formula works, I've spent the last week playing with it in various spreadsheets to figure out the implications of the HAC MWD bonus (it's pretty darn awesome).

Second if you drop the tracking on the Auto-Cannons to .15 and throw a 30% sig buff on a 140 sig target you actually gain more DPS than with the .17 tracking and no sig buff.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1203 - 2013-09-01 00:49:59 UTC
I don't like the 5% bonus to capacitor capacity on the Paladin. The bonus is based on the Amarr Battleship skill, so it's always a 25% bonus. It feels like a phony bonus! Please can this be rolled into the hull, and replaced with a second weapon bonus like all the other Marauders? A tracking bonus would be nice.

The Golem gets an explosion velocity bonus, the Vargur gets a tracking bonus and the Kronos gets a tracking bonus. The Paladin's the only one without such an application bonus, and it's using lasers? :(

I don't know tracking or weapons much, and the ship does have the falloff boost from the bastion mod, so I don't know if a tracking bonus for Amarr BS skill would be too powerful? But the 5% capacitor capacity feels like a waste when it's always there and always at 25%.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1204 - 2013-09-01 00:57:07 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

I feel like you are entirely missing the point of the original comment. His implication was that 800 Autocannons would apply damage as well as medium blasters. This is blatantly false.


On a tricked out vargur say versus a deimos - given both having same on paper dps and ignoring resists against say a crucifier the only thing thats different is the range at which the crucifier can get under their guns - on optimal the damage application is as close as makes no difference identical (yes it really is) despite the differences in gun signature compared to the target.


Cade Windstalker wrote:

Not really, if anything it becomes more relevant because it becomes harder to get additional boosts to tracking and you start losing a larger relative percentage of damage to signature resolution. Due to stacking penalties at a certain point you're likely to be better off adding a Target Painter than another tracking computer depending on the signature size of the target.


Thats true to a certain extent but for most intents and purposes if your not having to worry about tracking then sig differences make very little odds in damage application - the formula does not work the way people think it does.


You're missing the point: this dude comes in and says, "my 800mm ACs will have the same rad/sec tracking as my medium blasters, ergo they will apply damage just as well." The point is that he's wrong since tracking is only one determiner of hit quality.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1205 - 2013-09-01 01:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Cade Windstalker wrote:


For a start, I'm actually very well versed in how the formula works, I've spent the last week playing with it in various spreadsheets to figure out the implications of the HAC MWD bonus (it's pretty darn awesome).

Second if you drop the tracking on the Auto-Cannons to .15 and throw a 30% sig buff on a 140 sig target you actually gain more DPS than with the .17 tracking and no sig buff.


Wasn't specifically talking about your knowledge - but yeah its not completely cancelled out until transversal hits 0 but the effect of sig is much reduced as you get closer to perfect tracking and the difference in weapon size has a much more limited effect on your quality of hit - conversely As your tracking becomes more imperfect the more the difference in weapon size becomes a factor.

Ganthrithor wrote:


You're missing the point: this dude comes in and says, "my 800mm ACs will have the same rad/sec tracking as my medium blasters, ergo they will apply damage just as well." The point is that he's wrong since tracking is only one determiner of hit quality.


Only hes not (for the most part) entirely wrong. The other factors that affect how well you hit are much reduced when your rad/sec tracking is comparable. (There will be some difference due to optimal range and falloff).
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1206 - 2013-09-01 01:06:01 UTC
Regardless of tracking etc....


MARAUDERS what do we think of these changes.... ---> GO :)
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1207 - 2013-09-01 01:07:06 UTC
You should give them a fuel bay and make them use fuel.
Using their mini siege mode for free forever makes them virtually impossible to kill solo, or even with small numbers.

There is no Bob.

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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1208 - 2013-09-01 01:10:39 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
You should give them a fuel bay and make them use fuel.
Using their mini siege mode for free forever makes them virtually impossible to kill solo, or even with small numbers.


Scram, get under guns, wait til they get bored? :P
Iorga Eeta
Hekatonkheires Industries
#1209 - 2013-09-01 01:12:13 UTC
The Spod wrote:
Paladin stands to gain the most out of this. It will obsolete everything for killing EM/THERM weak rats.

The reason is that the optimal buff makes conflagration builds viable. We are looking at 1218 plain gun dps without implants at 37+25 range sieged, 27+18 unsieged. This is well enough for missions when complemented with 1k@50+30 Gamma and 875@90k scorch. This also tanks easily with just t2 repper and damage control.

Any damage buff on these would just obsolete other PVE ships for many purposes.


I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned it yet, but don't forget that Armor and Shield reppers are getting a boost in 1.1. So, these things will be getting a rep bonus on top of the coming rep bonus.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1210 - 2013-09-01 01:14:02 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
You should give them a fuel bay and make them use fuel.
Using their mini siege mode for free forever makes them virtually impossible to kill solo, or even with small numbers.


Scram, get under guns, wait til they get bored? :P


Alternatively, hit them with extremely high alpha while they're completely locked down in bastion mode. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. :\
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#1211 - 2013-09-01 01:14:16 UTC
These are going to annihilate POS towers all throughout high sec. With an EWAR immunity, Dickstars won't work anymore. We're going to see roaming bands of 'em going a slaughterin'.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1212 - 2013-09-01 01:16:36 UTC
Sarah Stallman wrote:
These are going to annihilate POS towers all throughout high sec. With an EWAR immunity, Dickstars won't work anymore. We're going to see roaming bands of 'em going a slaughterin'.


yeah there is that, and although it would make me sad because that would disinterest me in this ship, it is an understandable niche especially if it is a 'mini-dread', but then i think the range bonus is sort of... just not very good.
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1213 - 2013-09-01 01:18:59 UTC
Why do the Kronos, Golem, and Vargur have the damage bonus on the Battleship Prereq, while the Paladin has it on the Marauders skill?

It seems a bit silly to have to train such a massive skill to lvl5 just to deal the same damage as an Abaddon.

Please remedy?
Gnoshia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1214 - 2013-09-01 01:38:47 UTC
My only complaint is the name of the module.

Where the hell did you get "Bastion" from? What?
NiteNinja
Doomheim
#1215 - 2013-09-01 01:40:37 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
NiteNinja wrote:
And to add onto my previous post with the Golem and the Torpedoes vs Cruises deliemma... if you're trying to gear the Golem up for Cruise missiles (long range combat), then do something with defender missiles.

1 defender missile = 1/4 of the Golem's DPS, so the Golem will become the weaker of the 4 Marauders if you plan on using it for PVP like the original topic is about. Can't null 1/4 of the ammo on the other 3 ships that easily.

And most NPC's use defenders. More nerfage so the Golem won't be practical for PVE either... >.>

Might as well sell off my ship and go back to a Navy Raven.


Missile HP bonus on Bastion maybe? Or on the Golem itself so it's more viable as a whole. Would help make up for the lack of a damage bonus on the hull too, since the other three get one along with the stock Raven.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070

Yeah I mentioned that, all the other Marauders gets some kind of damage bonus, but you see nothing for missiles.

We know CCP hates missiles anyway. They're not that overpowered.

And bring back the old torpedo shockwaves and V3 them, I miss those. Torp and Cruise explosion GFX is the same.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1216 - 2013-09-01 01:47:18 UTC
Gnoshia wrote:
My only complaint is the name of the module.

Where the hell did you get "Bastion" from? What?

it's named after Sir Sebastian Bastion III the inventor of the modern marauder
Sturm Gewehr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1217 - 2013-09-01 01:49:51 UTC
MJD bonus good.

Bastion = bad.
Violet Winters
I HAVE THE POWER OF GOD AND ANIME ON MY SIDE
Blue Eyes and Exodia Toon Duelist Kingdom Duelers
#1218 - 2013-09-01 01:56:03 UTC
m0jo wrote:
My only concern here is the vargur losing 1000 hull. Why? It makes no sense at all while all the other ships are either gaining hull or armor in smaller bits but nothing compared to the hull nerf of the vargur. Does it really need that much nerfing? The overall EHP of the vargur is way less than the other ships. Can you not do that please?

Listen if you want to hate on a Minmatar ship then hate on the Wreathe or something. It just isnt right tbh.


Because if a Vargur hits hull it's defiantly going to survive, I mean hell if anything is gonna break the the tank on a Bastion Vargur it's going to a dread which would probably alpha it anyways.

CEO - Anglic Eclipse.
MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#1219 - 2013-09-01 01:59:21 UTC
Ok from the PVE side is there much MJD use in missions? I have never seen the need or use for a MJD in mission. And if you make the ships even slower it's even harder to use a MJD. "to encourage Marauders to use Micro Jump Drives to move around, and as such have reduced mobility next to their Tech1 counterparts (bit higher mass and lower max velocity)." Overshoot or slowboat, and/or slowboat back from overshoot, some good times there. So you will need dual prop?

PVP side the BASTION MODULE/mini dred I have no idea. Bonus to MJD maby. Is it worth reducing the already small amount of drones I dont think so and slowing the already slow ship why?.

So howbout some thing useful like the 4 non wep high slots? 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams is a crap bonus for lvl4 cleanup. let us fit a 2x2 2x Tracks 2xSalvagers with a range to be worth it. Or 4x tracks and feed 5x salvage drones.

Go with a set Role Bonus:
500% bonus to tractor beam range
100% bonus to tractor beam velocity

or a Ship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Tractor Beam and Salvager cycle time per level.
60% bonus to Tractor Beam range and velocity per level.

Updated comperhensive salvaging options are what the Marauer Class needs (and what we have been asking for) not reduced drones and mini-dred/MJD nonsense. The reduction of drones is a net loss of DPS with out recompense.
Just my 2 cents
MB
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1220 - 2013-09-01 02:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
i forgot who mentioned it but i agree that if its going to continue to have a tractor beam bonus, it should be changed to the ability to fit a capital tractor beam. Would maybe give it some interesting niche uses...

And now its time to go off on a tangent!

I really want to love this ship. When i was cube jr. i flew about in my destroyer and doing L1-2 etc. I joined a mission corp and helped out - shooting frigs, salvaging, etc. I saw a dude in a vargur, which at the time was pretty impressive. I hadnt seen a hull like that, it was awesome XD I thought then i would train towards it.

Eventually i got the skills for it - for when i would play with it later - but i was disappointed. Ah well, its still pretty cool.

But i guess what i am saying with this is that for something that takes so much time and isk (which i know i have said a thousand times) it should be really good at something - i dont care what its good at - but its got to be AMAZING at it.... Its such a cool ship.


It makes a lot of sense to turn it into a short range high damage dealer when in bastion - possibly even give web bonuses to all of them - a sticky fly trap sort of ship or for close range damage like towers. The amount of time it takes to get out of this mode balances it, i think, for pvp as people can just get out if they werent webbed in the first place. Taking away the 'remote assistance and ewar' part would make it useful in incursions and pvp in general.

Its expense and skill time would make it difficult to use for huge fleet battles, and if it was used, it would be a gankmagnet for killmail whores, and if there was a fleet doctrine for it, then people would have to pay attention to phsycial location a bit more - i dont know if thats good or bad.


So yeah... id like to see it become a short range high damage dealer while immobile


-- or go even CRAZIER with it! Make it an "immobile weapons platform" and let it use capital weapons :D It would make it an ACTUAL stepping stone if they did that, possibly have the bastion module enable the capital guns so if you dont have it, you can still fit the ship with regular guns and simply not use bastion mode so it still has a purpose

and im guessing the hull animations are already done - but if they arent - the animation could be for revealing the capital turrets

and i mean its already been done with tier3 BCs, a higher weapon class on a smaller ship, it would be awesome :D