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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#1001 - 2013-08-31 03:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Edit:
"A balance of gank and tank is required, and given their potential tank, average gank is to be expected"
"Very true. I think people keep thinking of their current fits and forget that for most missions these Marauders will need next to no tank fittings. Nearly everything can be devoted to offense. Not to mention excellent range even from their most powerful short range weapons."

I don't think you realize that if you doing marauders with more than hardener and booster you are doing it wrong bastion module don't change that it only provide more tank on already sufficient one.

But you will need to fit mjd and mwd if you plan to go to ac gate in this century ab is of the table.



You could simply fit MJD or MWD, you can always not use a bonus.

Not to mention bastion gives you immunity to ECM, damps, and tracking disruptors, AND a 25% range bonus!

Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.
With bastion you can use a lower grade shield booster if nothing else, decreasing total cost and therefore lowering overall chances of getting ganked.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1002 - 2013-08-31 03:27:45 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Edit:
But you will need to fit mjd and mwd if you plan to go to ac gate in this century ab is of the table.


Don't forget, 100MN MWDs use so much capacitor that you're going to have to pulse them extremely diligently. And doesn't the increased mass mean that prop mods in general will have less of an effect, AB and MWD alike?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1003 - 2013-08-31 03:31:21 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Edit:
But you will need to fit mjd and mwd if you plan to go to ac gate in this century ab is of the table.


Don't forget, 100MN MWDs use so much capacitor that you're going to have to pulse them extremely diligently. And doesn't the increased mass mean that prop mods in general will have less of an effect, AB and MWD alike?

That is true. Still a MWD will be fairly essential, though it will only be used to travel to AC gates and to get in range to collect loot. In actual combat you'll be relying on your MJD.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#1004 - 2013-08-31 03:35:12 UTC
'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'

no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1005 - 2013-08-31 03:36:09 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Edit:
But you will need to fit mjd and mwd if you plan to go to ac gate in this century ab is of the table.


Don't forget, 100MN MWDs use so much capacitor that you're going to have to pulse them extremely diligently. And doesn't the increased mass mean that prop mods in general will have less of an effect, AB and MWD alike?


Marauders have huge cargos for a battleship.

I run a blaster kronos, it has enough cargo capacity to bring enough cap 800s to not worry about cap budgeting when burning about. If it concerns you, you can also buy an x-type mwd which has no cap penalty (like people to do save cap on vindicators), but mere faction has always been fine for me on a kronos.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1006 - 2013-08-31 03:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'

no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.



I already use a blaster kronos, I can't see that it will always be slower, because that's a setup that is going to be highly improved when it can project its 1600dps further...

edit : not quite 1600 anymore stupid drone...
That Seems Legit
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1007 - 2013-08-31 03:37:32 UTC
To mare wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

nahjustwarpin wrote:
Just Lilly wrote:

Commandship bonuses will make these things kind of scary imo


why scary, they still have pathetic dps


1000 DPS is pathetic? Bit hard to impress aren't you.

yes 1000 dps for a T2 BS its kind of pathetic

and since gank is the tank for mission thats why ppl dont use them very often

theres more to eves pve then missions. I can see these being useful elsewhere. Maybe. Kinda...

K im lying I think they suck.

Adding more damage isnt going to fix them though. They'd still be an immobile gimmicky mini dread.

Damns - you're ugly - and that's a compliment from me. -Large Collidable Object Seeking donations for facial reconstructive surgery, every little bit helps!

M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#1008 - 2013-08-31 03:41:36 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'

no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.



CCP isn't nerfing DPS... or your speed if you choose not to use the bastion module.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1009 - 2013-08-31 03:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'

no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.



CCP isn't nerfing DPS... or your speed if you choose not to use the bastion module.

Well, they did nerf speed and agility a bit... as well as some drone damage, a slight bit of tank, and the web bonus.

However the Marauder hulls gain:

A significant boost to weapons range.
A significant boost in targeting range and scan resolution.
An 8th high slot.
A big increase to fittings, both CPU and power grid.
A really big increase in Cap amount and recharge.
A big reduction in sig radius.

All on top of being far better at leveraging the use of a MJD than any other ship in the game, as well as being the only ship capable of using the Bastion module.

So if his idea of excitement is simply close range brawling he can slap on his most damaging short range weapons, highest damage ammo, 4 NOS or Neuts, and as much tank as he thinks he needs with the ample fittings and go to town.

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Calzan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1010 - 2013-08-31 03:53:47 UTC
Since we're getting a 'shoot and scoot' mode I like the slightly faster lock times.

Seems like ewar fleets would hate these guys as the bastion cycle is only 60 seconds and provides a giant tank/local rep bonus (2 reps for the price of one, and most hulls are getting better capacitor).

Is it immune to Target Spectrum Breakers?
Is it immune to Remote ECM Bursts?

cause... damn, that's some crazy pvp possibilities.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1011 - 2013-08-31 04:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Calzan wrote:
Since we're getting a 'shoot and scoot' mode I like the slightly faster lock times.

Seems like ewar fleets would hate these guys as the bastion cycle is only 60 seconds and provides a giant tank/local rep bonus (2 reps for the price of one, and most hulls are getting better capacitor).

Is it immune to Target Spectrum Breakers?
Is it immune to Remote ECM Bursts?

cause... damn, that's some crazy pvp possibilities.

Hmm, since one of the biggest draw back to using a Target Spectrum Breaker is that it breaks your own locks, if it is immune to the effect that makes them somewhat more viable for a Marauder to use themselves in a large fleet engagement. They can't benefit from logistics anyway (whose locks would be likely broken) and it would cut down on a tremendous amount of incoming fire (except from Sentry drones).

Marauders might almost make Target Spectrum Breakers viable to use in a fleet battle. If we could only get some concrete stats on how the jamming effect scales vs the number of people targeting you we'd be able to tell for sure. I'd take a bonus to that instead of the tractor beam bonus.

However CCP doesn't really want them to be viable for large fleet combat, so a bonus to that end is highly unlikely.

Still...

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Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1012 - 2013-08-31 04:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Iome Ambraelle
With only a 54 second delay on MJD, the Gate thing isn't as big of a deal as you think. Instead of heading to the gate directly, just jump 100K tangent to the gate, wait 54 seconds and then jump to the gate.

Wrong:
* --------------------> = gate

Right:
*..............= gate
..\............/
....\......../
......\..../
........\/
........2

It's not that hard to line up after you do it a couple of times. Also, if you keep this strategy in mind when making your initial jump from the warp in position, you may not even have to jump out and back at all depending on if you need to re-position during combat.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#1013 - 2013-08-31 04:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
I don't really get what they're after with this.


In nullsec pvp, you're gonna be permabubbled the instant the bastion module comes online, and broken from either outside your range or under your guns. In the event you actually find a gang that can't break you, they simply burn out of your point range, warp, and taunt you in local.

In lowsec pvp, pretty much the same thing without the bubbles...either they sit in a spot your guns can't hit, or they simply GTFO.

In blob warfare, the bastion module is useless and a navy battleship will be both cheaper and more effective.


In PvE:

Anything you can currently tank with a machariel, vindi, or nightmare will still be done best by those two. L4 missions in particular.

Anything that you can't tank effectively with those is still probably best done with a T3, as that'll probably be in nullsec and using the bastion module for ratting is just asking for some asshat in a cyno sabre to come say hello.

Incursions will still break you and are still better done with pirate BS, and wormholes will still neut you dry and get you ganked.

Any situation where friendly logi and buffer tanking are a factor renders them useless, as their already-low EHP is getting nerfed even further.


TL:DR- marauders are still mostly useless unless you're in the alliance tournament.

thhief ghabmoef
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1014 - 2013-08-31 04:19:43 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
With only a 54 second delay on MJD, the Gate thing isn't as big of a deal as you think. Instead of heading to the gate directly, just jump 100K tangent to the gate, wait 54 seconds and then jump to the gate.

Wrong:
* --------------------> = gate

Right:
*..............= gate
..\............/
....\......../
......\..../
........\/
........2

It's not that hard to line up after you do it a couple of times. Also, if you keep this strategy in mind when making your initial jump from the warp in position, you may not even have to jump out and back at all depending on if you need to re-position during combat.

SmileSmile
Yeah, I've done that. I think I suck at geometry. Big smile

Still, it did help quite a bit.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1015 - 2013-08-31 04:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
I don't really get what they're after with this.


In nullsec pvp, you're gonna be permabubbled the instant the bastion module comes online, and broken from either outside your range or under your guns. In the event you actually find a gang that can't break you, they simply burn out of your point range, warp, and taunt you in local.

In lowsec pvp, pretty much the same thing without the bubbles...either they sit in a spot your guns can't hit, or they simply GTFO.

In blob warfare, the bastion module is useless and a navy battleship will be both cheaper and more effective.


In PvE:

Anything you can currently tank with a machariel, vindi, or nightmare will still be done best by those two. L4 missions in particular.

Anything that you can't tank effectively with those is still probably best done with a T3, as that'll probably be in nullsec and using the bastion module for ratting is just asking for some asshat in a cyno sabre to come say hello.

Incursions will still break you and are still better done with pirate BS, and wormholes will still neut you dry and get you ganked.

Any situation where friendly logi and buffer tanking are a factor renders them useless, as their already-low EHP is getting nerfed even further.


TL:DR- marauders are still mostly useless unless you're in the alliance tournament.

They still need work, yes... but a few points to consider.

Bubbles don't affect MJD's.

You can out range most opponents.

You still have a couple of flights of light drones to deal with tacklers, and plenty of room for neuts. Remember only scrams can hold you from MJDing, well within your neut range.

You have literally tons of space for cap charges.

Some of them do get tracking bonuses, they all have some form of damage or damage application bonus.

In a small/medium gang you'll obviously have other ships tackling. And if the fight does end up out of your considerable weapons range, you can MJD once a minute to get back on top of it if you need to (or away from it if you need to).

You don't have to be in Bastion mode the whole time, and have better resists than T1 or pirate BS hulls in or out of Bastion mode.

T3 and pirate vessels haven't been balanced yet, so we'll have to see how they compare afterward.

Marauders are not designed to engage in blob warfare, their PVP activity will likely be smaller scale engagements.

You can put a remarkable tank on them, so I'm not too sure Incursions are out of the question. You could be right on this point.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1016 - 2013-08-31 04:49:17 UTC
why not give them a mwd sig bonus?
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1017 - 2013-08-31 04:54:07 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
'Quit bitching about something that is doing nothing to hurt your current gameplay and is, in fact, making it easier.'

no it wonk make it easier it will make it more boring and if i don't use module all i got is nerfed dps slow(nerfed) brick.



CCP isn't nerfing DPS... or your speed if you choose not to use the bastion module.


they are literally nerfing non-bastion mode speed down to like 80ms
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1018 - 2013-08-31 04:56:56 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
With only a 54 second delay on MJD, the Gate thing isn't as big of a deal as you think. Instead of heading to the gate directly, just jump 100K tangent to the gate, wait 54 seconds and then jump to the gate.

Wrong:
* --------------------> = gate

Right:
*..............= gate
..\............/
....\......../
......\..../
........\/
........2

It's not that hard to line up after you do it a couple of times. Also, if you keep this strategy in mind when making your initial jump from the warp in position, you may not even have to jump out and back at all depending on if you need to re-position during combat.


its pointless, needless complication and irritation.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1019 - 2013-08-31 04:58:22 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
I don't really get what they're after with this.


In nullsec pvp, you're gonna be permabubbled the instant the bastion module comes online, and broken from either outside your range or under your guns. In the event you actually find a gang that can't break you, they simply burn out of your point range, warp, and taunt you in local.

In lowsec pvp, pretty much the same thing without the bubbles...either they sit in a spot your guns can't hit, or they simply GTFO.

In blob warfare, the bastion module is useless and a navy battleship will be both cheaper and more effective.


In PvE:

Anything you can currently tank with a machariel, vindi, or nightmare will still be done best by those two. L4 missions in particular.

Anything that you can't tank effectively with those is still probably best done with a T3, as that'll probably be in nullsec and using the bastion module for ratting is just asking for some asshat in a cyno sabre to come say hello.

Incursions will still break you and are still better done with pirate BS, and wormholes will still neut you dry and get you ganked.

Any situation where friendly logi and buffer tanking are a factor renders them useless, as their already-low EHP is getting nerfed even further.


TL:DR- marauders are still mostly useless unless you're in the alliance tournament.


100% agree
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#1020 - 2013-08-31 05:13:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Ranger 1 wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
I don't really get what they're after with this.


In nullsec pvp, you're gonna be permabubbled the instant the bastion module comes online, and broken from either outside your range or under your guns. In the event you actually find a gang that can't break you, they simply burn out of your point range, warp, and taunt you in local.

In lowsec pvp, pretty much the same thing without the bubbles...either they sit in a spot your guns can't hit, or they simply GTFO.

In blob warfare, the bastion module is useless and a navy battleship will be both cheaper and more effective.


In PvE:

Anything you can currently tank with a machariel, vindi, or nightmare will still be done best by those two. L4 missions in particular.

Anything that you can't tank effectively with those is still probably best done with a T3, as that'll probably be in nullsec and using the bastion module for ratting is just asking for some asshat in a cyno sabre to come say hello.

Incursions will still break you and are still better done with pirate BS, and wormholes will still neut you dry and get you ganked.

Any situation where friendly logi and buffer tanking are a factor renders them useless, as their already-low EHP is getting nerfed even further.


TL:DR- marauders are still mostly useless unless you're in the alliance tournament.

They still need work, yes... but a few points to consider.

Bubbles don't affect MJD's.

You can out range most opponents.

You still have a couple of flights of light drones to deal with tacklers, and plenty of room for neuts. Remember only scrams can hold you from MJDing, well within your neut range.

You have literally tons of space for cap charges.

Some of them do get tracking bonuses, they all have some form of damage or damage application bonus.

In a small/medium gang you'll obviously have other ships tackling. And if the fight does end up out of your considerable weapons range, you can MJD once a minute to get back on top of it if you need to (or away from it if you need to).

You don't have to be in Bastion mode the whole time, and have better resists than T1 or pirate BS hulls in or out of Bastion mode.

T3 and pirate vessels haven't been balanced yet, so we'll have to see how they compare afterward.

Marauders are not designed to engage in blob warfare, their PVP activity will likely be smaller scale engagements.

You can put a remarkable tank on them, so I'm not too sure Incursions are out of the question. You could be right on this point.

Fair points, all. Some things to consider, however:

If you can outrange everything, you're using long range guns, and depending on the ships and fits involved, ships as large as combat BCs or even attack battleships can get under them as long as they're outside your web range.

If you use short range guns, you probably can't even outrange the average sentry ship or long range HAC, and you can't chase things down, so you'd better hope things stay in range of your LR ammo.

Bubbles don't affect MJD's, but they do affect your ability to GTFO without first MJDing away and hoping you aren't caught while realigning.

The drones and neuts are only gonna help if you're tackled by small ships. One enemy battleship, HIC, proteus, Arazu/Lachesis, etc. on grid and you're stuck there for a while.

Cap charges only go so far, especially if you have an enemy cap warfare hull on grid.

The (slightly) better resists are nullified by the low buffer and limited slots. You aren't gonna tank much of anything without that module active. Might as well be in a navy hull at that point, you know?

Unless they change the balancing pecking order, the pirate battleships will still kill things faster than any other subcap hull. T3s will probably have their tank nerfed, which would help the situation a bit.

Agreed about blob warfare.

Even with the uber tank, you'd still barely manage to tank vanguards with them, and finding enough people with the skills to fly them like that would be a problem. Plus, they'd still be out-dps'd by the pirate hulls, even losing a ship to a logi position...a bit of range isn't going to help that. You just can't fit as many damage/range modules on them, much less goodies like a SeBo and webs.

thhief ghabmoef