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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Ashente
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#801 - 2013-08-30 17:02:25 UTC
I don't like these changes. If you do go with the MJD /Bastion module idea, I would only suggest that you increase the tractor bonus to 200% or even 300%. And make it so it can't activate that bastion module within docking range so there's no station docking game bullshit coming from this.

I believe that this new ship Idea should come in for an entirely new ship. Maybe make a second marauder with a different hull that utilizes this module and MJD bonus and keep the other ones as what they are with a bit better stats so they can be considered for pvp engagements.

I would suggest to make the kronos a touch faster than the megathron. Rebalance stats so they have a good sensor strength and scan resolution, so that they can be considered for a pvp role, keep the web bonus, and drone bay.

Drop the MJD /bastion module idea and put it towards a different hull.


Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#802 - 2013-08-30 17:02:39 UTC
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:
Again why 3 of marauders got double range bonus when in siege (25% to optimal and fallof making them 50% total) while golem got only one 25% to missile velocity, where is 25% to flight time?


I'm going to break this down because I die inside every single time I see this or similar claims.

Let's pretend we have a turret ship with 20+20km range (optimal and falloff). We also have a missile ship with flight time 3 seconds and velocity of 10km/second.

The turret ship hits perfectly out to 20km (neglecting tracking) and enters falloff where it starts to slowly degrade in hit quality, reaching 80% at about 30km (optimal plus half falloff).

The missile ship pushes missiles out to 10km/s * 3s = 30km, give or take.

So now let's add 25% bonuses. We'll do missiles first: 25% velocity. Now we're going 12.5km/s * 3s and reaching 37.5km. Note that we could have achieved the same thing with a 25% flight time boost and the result would be identical.

Ok, turret time. First we'll add an optimal bonus: 25km +20km falloff pushes out the optimal range 25% and the optimal plus half falloff point out to 35km, short of a 25% increase.

So what if we just added falloff then? Well, then we're at 20km + 25km, so optimal plus half faloff is now 32.5 km. Still not out to that 37.5 point are we?

So what we do is add both optimal and falloff: 25km optimal plus 25km falloff gets a uniform 25% increase to effective range across all ranges.

So: why don't we get double range bonuses to missiles? Because they would apply to increase the range twice overall, while the double range bonuses to turrets effectively increases the range only once overall.
That Seems Legit
State War Academy
Caldari State
#803 - 2013-08-30 17:06:04 UTC
Lol. Cant move until the bastion cycle is over? Easy gank targets. We'll just need to bring more ships.

Damns - you're ugly - and that's a compliment from me. -Large Collidable Object Seeking donations for facial reconstructive surgery, every little bit helps!

CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#804 - 2013-08-30 17:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Just another quick update.


  • We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.

  • We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.


Adjusting OP to reflect this.

EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.
Novah Soul
#805 - 2013-08-30 17:15:21 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just another quick update.


  • We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.

  • We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.


Adjusting OP to reflect this.

EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements autotrollmagicallychange all of a suddenTwisted.

Sounds good :)

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#806 - 2013-08-30 17:16:11 UTC
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:

The only upside to deploying in bastion mode you then have left is a measly 25% range. That's it. Furthermore, the immobility of bastion module is completely at odds with the mjd mobility.
.


Please read the whole OP before posting

Bastion mode also gives 30% bonus to shield, armor, and structure resistances without stacking.
Bastion mode gives a 100% bonus to armor rep amount and shield boost amount.

That's one hell of a bonus you're overlooking there. Not to mention, if you don't LIKE bastion mode, don't use it!

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#807 - 2013-08-30 17:16:39 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just another quick update.


  • We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.

  • We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.


Adjusting OP to reflect this.



The other thing I really do think you need to do is add a fuel bay. All capitals(minus Orca cause Orca) have one, and the only other T2 BS class does as well. Doesn't have to be a huge bay, but a bay. 50 stront/Cycle? Bay holding up to 250 or something.


As quickly as this class has fallen into the 'Mini Dread' classification, it really should follow the same 'siege' mechanics, aka need fuel. This fuel need also adds layers to the strategic Value(or lack thereof) of fielding these over say, a standard BS fleet.


A damage increase in Bastion would be nice too, since they are also following the 'can't be remote supported by anything' route.


Other than that, this is a really exciting proposal that I really look forward to seeing on Tq, if for no other reason than hoping to pop these things when they are used improperly :D

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#808 - 2013-08-30 17:19:23 UTC
Webs are about more than just tracking and turrets. A lot of the fun of 90% webs is being able to hold a pilot that you catch in a bad position. If these changes go through the only options to lock a guy in place will be the daredevil and the vindi. Seriously - if you want us to always have a winmatar kite mentality - just remove webs from the game. You are taking all of the fun out of the kronos and paladin. It's nice when the different race ships have different special abilities. You're kind of making them all the same. (although the flat 80 reduction in siganature really really sets the vargur apart from the other 3 races)

I haven't seen you address the 10X mass questions. Can I push a button and make my BS the mass of a carrier and close a wh? I don't know if that's what you've intended, but that's what I'm going to use them for. It won't break wh space but it will be a massive game changer. Give me a cloak and a 'monster mass button' and I will trap pilot after pilot on the wrong side of wh. GAME CHANGER - HUGE.

As for the folks that are asking for a damage bonus in bastion mode - just come out and tell them no. If you give them a dreadlike damage bonus on a BS it will lay waste to C2,C3 and C4 class wh. I'm kind of sad to see that some of the folks asking for a mini-dread damage mode are wh folks. Higher class wh folks. SHAME ON YOU. It's just wrong and you know it. Quit lobbying for easy mode.

Lost
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#809 - 2013-08-30 17:19:31 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just another quick update.


  • We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.

  • We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.


Adjusting OP to reflect this.

EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.

I like this quick feedback thing. More please!

swap tractor for something awesome

Bokononist

 
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#810 - 2013-08-30 17:20:10 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just another quick update.


  • We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.

  • We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.


Adjusting OP to reflect this.

EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.

I like this news.... I like it a LOT!!!
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#811 - 2013-08-30 17:24:50 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
The other thing I really do think you need to do is add a fuel bay. All capitals(minus Orca cause Orca) have one, and the only other T2 BS class does as well. Doesn't have to be a huge bay, but a bay. 50 stront/Cycle? Bay holding up to 250 or something.

As quickly as this class has fallen into the 'Mini Dread' classification, it really should follow the same 'siege' mechanics, aka need fuel. This fuel need also adds layers to the strategic Value(or lack thereof) of fielding these over say, a standard BS fleet.

A damage increase in Bastion would be nice too, since they are also following the 'can't be remote supported by anything' route.


They're not mini dreads, which is why they don't have these things.
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#812 - 2013-08-30 17:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Zhilia Mann wrote:

stuff



ur math is somewhat wrong and u are failing to realize that missiles are not turrets and they need time to hit the target. Not even talking about situation where your targets is warping away before your missiles hit him. Moreover at longer range most of players are shooting more missiles than its needed, eg when u are firing another volley of missiles when previous is still in space flying to target. If that first volley finishes target, the second volley is not going to another target but just flying into space doing nothing.

If your missiles got 100km range with 10km/s and 10secs flight time, increasing speed by 25% will result in 12,5km/s speed * 10secs = 125km range

If your turrets got for example 100km optimal and 100km falloff, increasing both for 25% will make your optimal 100km + 25% = 125km and your fallof 100km + 25% = 125km, so u will be able to deal full damage at 125km and half damage at 250km.

Missiles cant do half damage at twice of their optimal since they dont have fallof. Your target can have 1 hp sitting at 1 meter above your missiles optimal and u wont kill him.

And dont say word about tracking since turrets got tracking issues only if target is close enought while missiles got their issues no matter if target is close or far away (explosion velocity thing). U can counter tracking on turreted ship by moving at proper direction (for example away from target), but u cant counter low explosion velocity of your missiles.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#813 - 2013-08-30 17:29:02 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
The other thing I really do think you need to do is add a fuel bay. All capitals(minus Orca cause Orca) have one, and the only other T2 BS class does as well. Doesn't have to be a huge bay, but a bay. 50 stront/Cycle? Bay holding up to 250 or something.

As quickly as this class has fallen into the 'Mini Dread' classification, it really should follow the same 'siege' mechanics, aka need fuel. This fuel need also adds layers to the strategic Value(or lack thereof) of fielding these over say, a standard BS fleet.

A damage increase in Bastion would be nice too, since they are also following the 'can't be remote supported by anything' route.


They're not mini dreads, which is why they don't have these things.



Quoting OP:

'This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.'



Not much point 'stepping stone' for seige/triage if you're not gonna require fuel.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#814 - 2013-08-30 17:33:14 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
The other thing I really do think you need to do is add a fuel bay. All capitals(minus Orca cause Orca) have one, and the only other T2 BS class does as well. Doesn't have to be a huge bay, but a bay. 50 stront/Cycle? Bay holding up to 250 or something.

As quickly as this class has fallen into the 'Mini Dread' classification, it really should follow the same 'siege' mechanics, aka need fuel. This fuel need also adds layers to the strategic Value(or lack thereof) of fielding these over say, a standard BS fleet.

A damage increase in Bastion would be nice too, since they are also following the 'can't be remote supported by anything' route.


They're not mini dreads, which is why they don't have these things.



Quoting OP:

'This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.'



Not much point 'stepping stone' for seige/triage if you're not gonna require fuel.


"Prolonged deployment" and "requiring bulky fuel"

Those two things are mutually exclusive.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Danica Fox
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#815 - 2013-08-30 17:34:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Danica Fox
i dont think all when not any of this goes into round 2 but anywhy i try to give constructive critic

first thing first !!! dont just slam in another x8 skill make it in the marauder skill or max x4

even another useless skill @ 5 is not an option when these ships not offer a SERIOUS bonus for the skilltime

this is just useless time and isk sink

now my two cents


pve point of view

but my suggestion would be bonus (((25% resists 25%local tank boost))) 25% damage bonus 25% tracking 25% optimal 25% falloff (25% exp radius / missile speed) (maybe +5% per level) would be worth it. (sounds overpowerd but isnt! u get like 1150 dps out of most marauders with resonable fitting out to 100km or 800dps out to 200km no tank needed with mjd bonus)

the damagebonus is quite crucial to be used. cause i and a lot of people i talked to wouldnt use this in null because thanks to the overview change 1 min is too long to get out of anoms before tackled. on a damagebonus u could consider using. risk vs reward again

The tractor Bonus should be brought inline with noctis range or mjd 100% per lvl of marauder so 100 for t1 120 for t2
bonus on salvage drones no extra high (drone bay of 50 min)

mjd sounds not toooo bad after thinking and talking about

smartbomb range would be awesome bonus

these would be good changes 4 pve

for pvp

why this PVE orientet ship should be viable in PVP
a super isnt viable in PVE right or a (h)dictor

why taking away a pve ship from the game just to make it slighty useable (maybe) in pvp and not leave it a pve ship

other approach make it a pvp ship and dont think about pve so

no tractor beam bonus
-> damage bonus (>50%) to make it viable to siege risk vs reward thing

dreads wouldnt go to siege if they would get no damage bonus on it

think about it a dread with 100% optimal bonus in siege local tank bonus and ewar immunity#

what would u do ?

cyno in closer and remote rep the **** out of attacker / pos guns

please rethink changes

there are alot of good points in this thread.


options imho

1 maybe second marauder hull 1 pve 1pvp

2 stay pve ship with all commitment

3 change to a pvp ship but then remove all pve bonuses and live with it that it wont be used alot


and some questions afterwards :

ewar immuntiy includes or not : defender neut/nos paint ?

why nerf this moon size sigged ships ehp ?

why it has to be pvp viable and when will my (h)dictor will have a pve niche


some changes read to me like the mackinaw getting a 100% scrambling range for each lvl of ancoring
Kaeden Dourhand
Raven's Sway
#816 - 2013-08-30 17:34:48 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:

The only upside to deploying in bastion mode you then have left is a measly 25% range. That's it. Furthermore, the immobility of bastion module is completely at odds with the mjd mobility.
.


Please read the whole OP before posting

Bastion mode also gives 30% bonus to shield, armor, and structure resistances without stacking.
Bastion mode gives a 100% bonus to armor rep amount and shield boost amount.

That's one hell of a bonus you're overlooking there. Not to mention, if you don't LIKE bastion mode, don't use it!


It also helps if you read MY post before replying :)

I said the only upside to bastion mode in blob warfare would be the range, because losing ability to be remote repped is far worse than the ability to increase your own local tank. You'll still just get shot right off the field.

So the only merit for the bastion module in blob warfare is the extra range.. and that's nothing to write home about.
mr stephenson
Dodgy at Best
#817 - 2013-08-30 17:39:32 UTC
Pretty please can we have a new ship. Big smile

what if you iterated on the current hulls to have a -50% fitting cost for mjd's plus the new cycle time bonus and esentially leave them as they are (possible tweeking bonuses and stats a little for a more pvp role) maybe charnge the ewar bonus to a more all round 50% range and 50% strength.

then devolop a new ship from scratch with this bastion module in mind. that way its taylored to fit rather than as it is now a bit muddled.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#818 - 2013-08-30 17:40:37 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
The other thing I really do think you need to do is add a fuel bay. All capitals(minus Orca cause Orca) have one, and the only other T2 BS class does as well. Doesn't have to be a huge bay, but a bay. 50 stront/Cycle? Bay holding up to 250 or something.

As quickly as this class has fallen into the 'Mini Dread' classification, it really should follow the same 'siege' mechanics, aka need fuel. This fuel need also adds layers to the strategic Value(or lack thereof) of fielding these over say, a standard BS fleet.

A damage increase in Bastion would be nice too, since they are also following the 'can't be remote supported by anything' route.


They're not mini dreads, which is why they don't have these things.



Quoting OP:

'This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.'



Not much point 'stepping stone' for seige/triage if you're not gonna require fuel.


"Prolonged deployment" and "requiring bulky fuel"

Those two things are mutually exclusive.



Use Heavy water then.


Or isotopes.

Or if it really gets you off, use Hobgoblin II's as fuel. What the fuel is doesn't matter as much as that it IS used.


The most common role, PVP wise, I can see these being used in is sieging High Sec POS's.

Add the layer to the game of NEEDING to plan for fuel, to have fuel on standby, create the opportunity for disrupting War plans by making a vulnerable spot(Read ganking fuel haulers) so peeps can't just warp from tower to tower with a couple guardians to provide cap.


Limiting the dimensions of a mechanic because it's inconvenient doesn't create content and opportunity.

Fuel costs are as critical to Capitals as having cyno's to move systems.


BLops BS step stone into the Cyno jumping Mechanic. With a fuel bay.

Why should Marauders NOT step stone into Siege/Triage? With a fuel bay.


And since when has a Marauder been on 'long deployment' lol?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#819 - 2013-08-30 17:41:06 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just another quick update.


  • We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.

  • We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.


Adjusting OP to reflect this.

EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.


awesome feedback....glad to see the skill change and safety issue resolved. I like all the things that the weapons timer does to the module so people cant just instant dock etc etc, just hope we dont have any weapons timer related effects that interact with the rest of the criminal system.... would hate for a loophole to change my weapons timer into suspect timer.....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#820 - 2013-08-30 17:43:11 UTC
Did CCP Ytterbium just offer me a Megathron with a mancannon option?