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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#781 - 2013-08-30 16:24:50 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Wow. Mini dreads. Ok....



So it would seem...
I recall posting in a feeback thread elsewhere that we needed mini dreads (and some other stuffs) so imagine my delight at seeing this and your description.

:)

o/
Celly Smunt.

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights
#782 - 2013-08-30 16:25:09 UTC
Cheyenne Shadowborn wrote:
As someone before me already said, the tractor bonus is outdated with the introduction of the Noctis.

Might as well remove it or replace it with something useful (like, make it into a role bonus: "Tractor beams work on enemy ships" Lol)

Quote:
i dont see why we should have to turn off safety in order to use a module in highsec for PVE that couldnt possibly hit something we didnt lock and fire at. It kind of defeats the purpose of the "set to green, you are safe from doing illegals" idea....


Same thing I was thinking. Why would you get a weapon timer purely for activating that module? Wouldn't you get a weapon timer once you shoot someone with it, anyways? You don't get a timer that prevents docking/gate jumping from shooting, say, mission rats in non-bastion mode, why would bastion mode neccessitate that? It just seems that CCP is needlessly employing game mechanics here. With this mechanic, people will potentially need to sit out timers at the end of pure PVE missions before they can even dock.


This also, safety should not need to be disabled to use this module. I am fine with it giving off a weapon timer, but it should not require safety orange. Considering the price off these ships you dont want any mishaps in HS.
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#783 - 2013-08-30 16:26:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
A'Tolkar wrote:
It seems that with the Nighthawk having the 5% level missile explosion velocity bonus swapped for a 5% missile explosion radius bonus, I figured the same would happen with the Golem. Granted, I have never flown a Golem, and maybe never will, but given the past change, I thought the same might happen with the Golem. Any reason why the explosion velocity bonus isn't changing?


This + removing target painter bonus and placing 5% damage bonus to torpedoes and cruise missiles, since rest of marauders got additional 5% bonus to damage or rof for all large turrets which is usable allways, Golem is the only one who doesnt got it and stays with ew tp bonus good only for torpedoes and only sometimes.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#784 - 2013-08-30 16:26:54 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
This could be a lot of fun, but I am gonna miss the drones that were cut down.

Sentinels in particular would be a great compliment to an immobile gun platform.


I agree

OFC we would have to remember to pull them in before we MJD'd but that's not too hard to do factoring in the spoolup time


o/
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#785 - 2013-08-30 16:30:52 UTC
Sekeris wrote:
Cheyenne Shadowborn wrote:
As someone before me already said, the tractor bonus is outdated with the introduction of the Noctis.

Might as well remove it or replace it with something useful (like, make it into a role bonus: "Tractor beams work on enemy ships" Lol)

Quote:
i dont see why we should have to turn off safety in order to use a module in highsec for PVE that couldnt possibly hit something we didnt lock and fire at. It kind of defeats the purpose of the "set to green, you are safe from doing illegals" idea....


Same thing I was thinking. Why would you get a weapon timer purely for activating that module? Wouldn't you get a weapon timer once you shoot someone with it, anyways? You don't get a timer that prevents docking/gate jumping from shooting, say, mission rats in non-bastion mode, why would bastion mode neccessitate that? It just seems that CCP is needlessly employing game mechanics here. With this mechanic, people will potentially need to sit out timers at the end of pure PVE missions before they can even dock.


This also, safety should not need to be disabled to use this module. I am fine with it giving off a weapon timer, but it should not require safety orange. Considering the price off these ships you dont want any mishaps in HS.



This too...

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#786 - 2013-08-30 16:32:36 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
tachyons.

mission rats spawn up to 130km away. tachs have 45 optimal + 45 falloff. when you get TDed it's 20 optimal + 20 falloff unless you switch to lower damage ammo.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Soldari Orion
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#787 - 2013-08-30 16:33:20 UTC
SkupojHren wrote:
what?i dont even know where to start

Extends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25%
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%

why missiles dont get a second bonus?turrets get falloff and tracking.

also,why only 4 guns/marauder?with the extra slot gained and pg,you guys can increase the gun/missiles slot to 5


velocity is both range - falloff, and will apply damage better.

It's because the missile equation doesn't use two stats for what gunnery uses two stats for.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#788 - 2013-08-30 16:34:06 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP, I have said earlier that I think the changes are wonderful, BUT I really think you guys ought to consider Marauders as they relate to PVE platforms, and specifically with Incursions. Incursions are, I believe, the "pinnacle" of high sec PVE, and as such, Marauders should have a place there. With the Bastion module, however, I think Marauders in Incursions will be limited, because it disables the ability to receive reps.

Thus, I would suggest that perhaps you make TWO BASTION MODULES:

One Bastion variant would do the same that the current proposed Bastion module does, and the

other Bastion variant would provide bonuses that make it a competent ship in Incursions, perhaps receiving a bonus to received reps, tracking bonus, or similar.

The idea is NOT to buff Marauders into mini dreads, so I don't think that adding damage bonuses on the "Incurision-oriented Bastion Module" is right, but a tracking bonus, explosion radius/velocity or similar damage application bonus, since Incursions are always run with Logi support and are often firing at smaller targets. Both Bastion modules would render the ship immobile, but one would buff its tank and make it ewar immune and the other would buff its damage application but it would be SUSCEPTIBLE to ewar.

Having two modules would provide compelling choices for strong tank/ewar immunity/damage range VS better damage application for smaller targets. Perhaps this is where you could build in a web range/speed bonus or similar. Again, the idea is NOT to buff their damage but to provide compelling gameplay decisions that we as players love. It would also add an element of surprise to someone engaging a Marauder.


OR instead of having 2 bastion modules, have 1 be the module, and give the other bonuses to the NON-Bastion mode of the ship


*cough* scripts *cough*

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Aust Silverfrond
Dead Star Syndicate
#789 - 2013-08-30 16:35:45 UTC
Replace Paladin's cap bonus with tracking buff, replace Golem's target painter buff to explosion radius redux, and replace the sets tractor beam buff with something useful please.
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#790 - 2013-08-30 16:36:28 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.




i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC?


No NPC in the game that I've ever heard of warp scrambles. It says "scramble" when an npc points you but if you right click on the ewar icon above your capacitor it will show you that you are only "disrupted".

As a test I've used MJD equipped battleships in null sec anoms, 3 seperate types of DED complexes (Centus assembly, Blood Raider naval Shipyard and the Maze), in null sec incursion space (i intentionally let an incursion npc point my battleship at a gate to see, didn't this several times, while yelling "screw you Niarja" in local lol), and in lvl 4 missions in low and high sec.

Not once in all that pve content has my MJD failed to activate.

It's a get out of jail free card and not putting one on a pve BS (at least until ccp decides it's OP and makes npcs actually scram lol) is crazy to me.

This among the most valuable pieces of information I've ever seen in a forum post. Thanks for the info.

Bokononist

 
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#791 - 2013-08-30 16:40:13 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP, I have said earlier that I think the changes are wonderful, BUT I really think you guys ought to consider Marauders as they relate to PVE platforms, and specifically with Incursions. Incursions are, I believe, the "pinnacle" of high sec PVE, and as such, Marauders should have a place there. With the Bastion module, however, I think Marauders in Incursions will be limited, because it disables the ability to receive reps.

Thus, I would suggest that perhaps you make TWO BASTION MODULES:

One Bastion variant would do the same that the current proposed Bastion module does, and the

other Bastion variant would provide bonuses that make it a competent ship in Incursions, perhaps receiving a bonus to received reps, tracking bonus, or similar.

The idea is NOT to buff Marauders into mini dreads, so I don't think that adding damage bonuses on the "Incurision-oriented Bastion Module" is right, but a tracking bonus, explosion radius/velocity or similar damage application bonus, since Incursions are always run with Logi support and are often firing at smaller targets. Both Bastion modules would render the ship immobile, but one would buff its tank and make it ewar immune and the other would buff its damage application but it would be SUSCEPTIBLE to ewar.

Having two modules would provide compelling choices for strong tank/ewar immunity/damage range VS better damage application for smaller targets. Perhaps this is where you could build in a web range/speed bonus or similar. Again, the idea is NOT to buff their damage but to provide compelling gameplay decisions that we as players love. It would also add an element of surprise to someone engaging a Marauder.


OR instead of having 2 bastion modules, have 1 be the module, and give the other bonuses to the NON-Bastion mode of the ship


*cough* scripts *cough*
Scripts would make it too easy to adapt the ship. Fitting choices--and thus role choices--are made when you undock and not in space. Otherwise, why not make a module that improves tracking or damage and just have it scripted? TCs and Damage mods are separated to force you to choose before you undock if you want two divergent things. Tanking vs damage really isn't something that'd be on a script.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#792 - 2013-08-30 16:40:20 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.




i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC?


No NPC in the game that I've ever heard of warp scrambles. It says "scramble" when an npc points you but if you right click on the ewar icon above your capacitor it will show you that you are only "disrupted".

As a test I've used MJD equipped battleships in null sec anoms, 3 seperate types of DED complexes (Centus assembly, Blood Raider naval Shipyard and the Maze), in null sec incursion space (i intentionally let an incursion npc point my battleship at a gate to see, didn't this several times, while yelling "screw you Niarja" in local lol), and in lvl 4 missions in low and high sec.

Not once in all that pve content has my MJD failed to activate.

It's a get out of jail free card and not putting one on a pve BS (at least until ccp decides it's OP and makes npcs actually scram lol) is crazy to me.

This among the most valuable pieces of information I've ever seen in a forum post. Thanks for the info.

someone else will have to confirm this for sleepers, but aside from that, my experience has been the same so far. the same thing holds for MWDs btw, which makes it a valid tactic to just align and burn out of the rat tacklers' range.

I should buy an Ishtar.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#793 - 2013-08-30 16:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Suggestion:

Do this with marauders: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?13247-Marauders

Add the extra mass, reduce the speed, nerf the sensor strength, increase mjd recovery speed, remove the RR and mwd bonuses and gimp the drone bay once you fit the bastion module. Now you have a fairly useful marauder for normal people(no active tank bonus and a bit more flexible than faction hulls at the cost of a bit of speed and dps) and people can still make them super tankers at undock or blink around the grid. To make it clear, drop the active tank bonus for the new damage application bonuses, keep the web strength on the Paladin and Kronos, with the Bastion module you can still tank extreme amounts of dps and it is redundant for most other uses.

Everybody should be happy with this.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#794 - 2013-08-30 16:41:24 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
"100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" is an outdated bonus, especially after Noctis introduction.
Either make this bonus dependent from Marauders skill to achieve Noctis-like results, or increase this value to 500%. After all, now we have reduced MJD reactivation and 40km tractor range is not viable anymore with 100km jumps.
And I'm not even going to mention highly demanded salvaging bonus..Sad


Other than that.. AWESOME!


for the folks who don't employ the MJD and such, those bonuses would still serve a purpose in missioning, so while they aren't "used" as much now-a-days, I'd have to say they really aren't "outdated" yet.

and let's not forget that not everyone flies or fits like some of us do, so CCP is likely leaving the room there for all types of fits rather than just 1.

o/
Celly Smunt


Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#795 - 2013-08-30 16:43:51 UTC
Ben Booley wrote:
This change effectively ruins them as a PVP ship.

Outside of the tiny tiny niche of solo players (with links) going up against 5-10 people, the bastion module is worthless. Even against those numbers, if they have neuts, most active tanks will turn off. While an ASB can still run, you'll lose any hardeners, or any tackle to keep people there. Neuts will completely shut off an armor tank, and any weapons used by that armor tank.

At over 10 people, you'll die to alpha. Being able to MJD more frequently doesn't help since they probably have scrams. So you drop into bastion, shoot some things for a bit (but not doing any more damage than a BS that actually has mobility), hope they don't get out of your range, and tank a lot of DPS, but with minimal EHP. There are so many dreads in game, and marauders are sufficiently shiny, that if you bastion more than a handful of marauders someone will drop a moros on them and just alpha through the marauders effortlessly, as they can't even move for transversal.

Outside of bastion mode, the low sensor strength renders them incredibly easy to jam, and for the paladin and kronos losing their 90% webs significantly reduces their utility to an armor fleet.

The faster MJD bonus, as we saw when the revenant had a jump range bonus, is useless. It really doesn't matter if the marauder can MJD every 54 seconds, as long as the rest of the fleet is still stuck at 180 seconds, as no sane FC will split the hell out of their fleet just to keep a marauder pilot alive, and I really doubt we'll see gangs or fleets of marauders.

Their rep bonuses line up for solo work as even a boosted tank won't be able to fight an even mid sized gang, and without remote effects in bastion mode they're limited to each ship being on it's own. They're utterly useless outside bastion mode, and only mostly useless inside bastion mode, so they have no way to work in a fleet.

Dreads and carriers, the two other ships with something similar to bastion mode, increase their ability to do things to other people when locked in place, either by doing more damage or having better RR. The marauder needs the same. Bastion mode is useless when it only affects itself. I would give them ~3-4k dps in bastion mode, enough that they can be a real threat to BS and capitals while sieged, but not enough to eclipse dreads completely in K-space. That 3-4k dps would, however, be a massive fix for two of the biggest pains in the game, highsec and low W-space POSes. You can't hit those with dreads, and hardened they take forever in a BS, particularly in low tier WHs where you can't fit all that many ships through.

Marauders need to do something like that, something that has impact on other players, rather than pure tank, if they want to be a good PVP ship. As it stands, bastion mode will be astoundingly good for lvl 4 missions and some anoms, and possibly incursions (i don't know enough about incursions to know if the increased local tank would be enough to make up for no logi in an incursion or not).

I really want to like this change since it's ~cool~, but as it stands it makes the marauder a massive pile of ****.



Tiny niche of solo to small gangs of up to 10 people? You mean we can ACTUALLY FIGHT WITH A GANG OF UNDER 10 PEOPLE???
3-4k DPS would be overpowered without some sort of enormous tracking nerf, which would make them useless for shooting subcapitals.
It will take more than 10 people to kill one of these marauders, given that my PVP fit Vargur has 70k omni-EHP now, before the 30% across the board resist buff.


Honestly, this will be a a buff as well as a nerf to small gang PVP, since soloers will love to use them, but at the same time not be able to kill them. We'll see how it plays out.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Kaeden Dourhand
Raven's Sway
#796 - 2013-08-30 16:51:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaeden Dourhand
I'm going to have to agree with a lot of people here, and say that the current iteration as it is on paper will not mean the marauders get to see any PVP action, and will ruin the few niche roles they had (web). Why? Because they can't receive remote reps.

The only upside to deploying in bastion mode you then have left is a measly 25% range. That's it. Furthermore, the immobility of bastion module is completely at odds with the mjd mobility.

As some people have said before, maybe the bastion module is better reserved for differen T2 ships, and dubbed demolition module or something, with actually increased DPS. More mobility, tracking, maybe even warp strength as has been mentioned before would do the marauders more good.

The only alternative to this would be to remove the bonus to local rep from the bastion module and enable them to receive RR. That way they can be used as a sniper fleet doctrine, being vulnerable to bombs.

I just don't know. As a marauder pilot, I'm liking this for missioning so far, the extra tank meaning I can just slap on an extra heatsink, but I'll mourn the loss of drones. To be honest, tracking or damage bonuses would have been far preferred for the pve side of things, marauders are already good on tank.

With the proposed changes, there's -STILL- no way in hell I will fly a marauder into PVP. Why would I? There's nothing the ship does other than mjd around that another ship can do, and MJD doesn't work in bastion, and when you forgo bastion you still get jammed to hell.

Like with the transport ships iteration, I'm just going to shout "NO", and hope you come up with something better for round 2.
Viceran Phaedra
Instar Heavy Industries
#797 - 2013-08-30 16:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Viceran Phaedra
Hey CCP,

Fantastic ideas - it's about time we had more visual treats like the new Bastion module transformations. Can't wait to see what they look like! I've had a good read and I agree with most of the post and am looking forward to the implementation, but...

I think I'm flogging a dead horse here, but for the level of skill investment one of these ships are going to require, and with a bit of practical though applied (not saying you didn't):

Idea Remove the tractor bonus. Seriously. We have the Noctis. Marauder tractors are obsolete. Remeber that T2 hulls are supposed to be 'specialised' versions of T1 hulls. Pew pew and tractor (and/or salvage) is not specialisation. These bad boys should be combat powerhouses.

Idea I'm not convinced the MJD is effective at all in a PvE role, given the sizes of mission areas and the distances between gates. Movement will be very imprecise and pretty finickey. PvE mission environments never change on a scale that requires a 'quick reaction' of a 100km jump. Marauder speed should remain unchanged, or you're effectively asking for a dual-prop fit if we want to move between gates in a timely fashion and also use a MJD. I don't think you should try to justify the module by changing an entire ship class to require it. Not yet.

Idea In keeping with their hull size, Battleships should have at least 50/75 drone capacity. This will not only allow us to take care of elite frigates with medium drones that will actually live long enough to kill them, but if you go temporarily insane and decide to keep the tractor bonus, this means we can take a flight of salvage drones too, to pair up with the tractors. Especially if you're pulling the webbing bonus.

Overall I think the Bastion module is a great idea. But I think that trying to force the MJD on players, and pulling the web bonuses completely, is not. Perhaps some minor slot and attribute changes to the Marauder hulls, yes, but not massive drone and web changes. Small steps.

[edit: addendum]

I can see Marauders being the ultimate PvE badasses, and Pirate battleships being geared more for PvP applications, with bonuses to things like EWAR and Cap warfare. I don't think the one ship can be used for both PvE and PvP in its current iteration.

Chief Executive Officer

Instar Heavy Industries
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#798 - 2013-08-30 16:58:22 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.




i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC?


No NPC in the game that I've ever heard of warp scrambles. It says "scramble" when an npc points you but if you right click on the ewar icon above your capacitor it will show you that you are only "disrupted".

As a test I've used MJD equipped battleships in null sec anoms, 3 seperate types of DED complexes (Centus assembly, Blood Raider naval Shipyard and the Maze), in null sec incursion space (i intentionally let an incursion npc point my battleship at a gate to see, didn't this several times, while yelling "screw you Niarja" in local lol), and in lvl 4 missions in low and high sec.

Not once in all that pve content has my MJD failed to activate.

It's a get out of jail free card and not putting one on a pve BS (at least until ccp decides it's OP and makes npcs actually scram lol) is crazy to me.

This among the most valuable pieces of information I've ever seen in a forum post. Thanks for the info.


Your very welcome. I must share my carebearing power with all!
Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#799 - 2013-08-30 16:59:27 UTC
The proposed seem interesting, will have to see how it plays before I can really judge.

What I'd like to strongly suggest, however, is a SECOND Marauder per Race, utilizing each race's secondary weapons platform.

I.e. for Amarr, a Khanid Ship using Armor/Missiles (Torps).
For Caldari, a Shield/Railgun Platform.
Etc.

The original T2 way of doing things, with TWO T2 Variants of each T1 Hull, is still the best way. I'd strongly suggest any ship-class that lacks a second T2 variant (EAF's for example, one HAC per race, etc) get their second T2 at some point, offering racial alternatives to the core racial weapons/tanking systems.

TLDR: Black Khanid Torp Baddon Marauder please.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#800 - 2013-08-30 17:00:38 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Zaxix wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.




i dont use MJDs much, but i thought they were disrupted by warp scramblers? Do NPCs not do that? Or does it just not effect the MJD if it is an NPC?


No NPC in the game that I've ever heard of warp scrambles. It says "scramble" when an npc points you but if you right click on the ewar icon above your capacitor it will show you that you are only "disrupted".

As a test I've used MJD equipped battleships in null sec anoms, 3 seperate types of DED complexes (Centus assembly, Blood Raider naval Shipyard and the Maze), in null sec incursion space (i intentionally let an incursion npc point my battleship at a gate to see, didn't this several times, while yelling "screw you Niarja" in local lol), and in lvl 4 missions in low and high sec.

Not once in all that pve content has my MJD failed to activate.

It's a get out of jail free card and not putting one on a pve BS (at least until ccp decides it's OP and makes npcs actually scram lol) is crazy to me.

This among the most valuable pieces of information I've ever seen in a forum post. Thanks for the info.

someone else will have to confirm this for sleepers, but aside from that, my experience has been the same so far. the same thing holds for MWDs btw, which makes it a valid tactic to just align and burn out of the rat tacklers' range.


I dual prop my ships (MWD and MJD) for this very reason. Once in a DED plex I Eff'd up and let my cap get a tad to low for MJD so I rolled the rice and MWD'd away till I capped out, it was enough, i made it out of that plex.