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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6881 - 2013-10-28 20:06:25 UTC
After some other playtime with my Vargur i am absolutely sure that a 1400 setup is no use for lvl 4. The amount of small ships is reducing ISK/hour a lot. It might be okay for forsaken hubs in 0.0.

My favorite fitting right now is:

[Vargur, Best ISK]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Small Tractor Beam II
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Bastion

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

Bouncer II x2
Warrior II x5

The heavy cap booster is not for tank, it is for the mwd.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6882 - 2013-10-28 20:11:57 UTC
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

...
1400s kinda suck compared to other long range weapon systems. They are all about dat alpha. Other than that, the sustained dps is poor, which doesn't suit PvE well. This makes AC fits (as with the TQ version) a preferred choice.
...
Nah rails do around 11.5% more dps within optimal, have a better optimal, have less overkill, better tracking, and aren't penalized as harshly for missing.



The above is mostly accurate, however 11.5% does not make the artillery less viable vs rails unless you are shooting guristas or serpentis. Artillery will do more dps against angels and should be within 5% of sansha and blood raiders because of selectable damage types. The tracking curves are close enough that it doesn't matter and artillery projection is a little better over the curve, but you can use uranium to help offset that.

The graphs below are built with known rubicon data used in EFT, all below are subject to change:

Red : Kronos
Blue : Vargur

No transversal: http://i.imgur.com/uEp5aJs.jpg

Transversal: http://i.imgur.com/rcQ7V3o.jpg
...

Just would like to point out that the Kronos should have 0 trouble staying closer than 90km to a target. It should also not have any trouble staying within the 25km to 65km range where it is doing approx 11.5% better... heck the Mach's turrent dps is only 9.5 better than the vargur's but its way better for straight bounty farming (to be fair it does get 2 more sentry drones on top, additional ~120dps with garde IIs).

(off topic: where are you getting the figures on the impact of dmg types? I cant seem to find a good source on the interwebs and would very much like to find more applications for hail ammo. ex: raw dmg would be higher on targets closer than like 20km or so, but what is that range in effective dps vs serpentis?)

My Little Pyongyang wrote:

Yes these builds could be blinged more, yes they could go without the cap booster but the gains from another tracking computer are minimal. They could also roll without XYZ but I built them similar to my MWD machariel setup and I also wanted to get an MJD on there somehow because ship bonuses etc. They dps about as hard as you can, and they push it almost as far as you can, another tracking computer brings the 100km dps of the vargur from 712 to 667. It's not trivial but I'd prefer the cap booster....


No question that artys can clear missions, I just see no point in using them:

[Rubicon Vargur]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer x4
Tracking Enhancer II

TC / dual prop / whatever
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer x2

800mm Repeating Artillery II, RF ammo x4
Bastion Module I
Small Tractor Beam II x3

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

With this setup (compared to your arty fit):
* more dmg to any target closer than 48KM (easy to stay within 48KM esp with dual prop MJD)
* are within the 48KM tractor range for looting
* much higher dmg potential (1163 vs 819, 42%)
* have much better tracking
* much less overkill
* usually within unmodified drone control range
* gardes
* hail ammo on certain missions
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6883 - 2013-10-28 20:12:51 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:

i say, make the dps from non-bastion marauders comparable (same as) pirate, and i will be happy. I just want a reason to be able to use the ship, took a lot of skills, i skilled and bought them on 4 characters, even if they are only same output, id rather use the marauder.... however its still looking like it will be worse, esp with the nerfed speed etc.


please just balance non-bastion mode to be at the level it should be. (go go proper resists, removed self rep bonus, better fitting and dps :D)And dont nerf non-bastion... all that does is nerf the people who arent using bastion XD it doesnt balance what is perceived as the "op bastion mode"


I dont know about pushing raw dps up to match pirates necessarily, but at least give them better raw dmg potential than t1 pls and thx. esp the kronos and vargur... substantial room for dmg increase before stepping on pirate toes.

I would support an out of bastion mode style of awesomeness, take my extra utility high, and let the penalties of bastion be tied to the bastion module, but ppl have been shouting about it til blue in the face. Sadly, I dont think it is going to happen


even just boosting out of bastion tank via resists to make it a tanky low dps ship outside of bastion....would be better than it is currently.

I really hate how they outright refuse to give this ship more dps - the thing is that if ANY ship deserves it, it is the marauder. There is No reason that the marauder shouldn't outright outdps pirate given the same cost and the higher skill requirement.

And power creep? This is the OPPOSITE of power creep, this is updating an old part of the game that is underpowered because of power creep in the rest of the game. Updating this ship to be Better makes sense to reverse power creep.

but even though this all makes sense, and this ship requires so much to fly, im quite sure they will continue to give it this... "role", this "niche", and it will be nearly NEVER used in the game.

maybe it will be in some alliance tournaments or some bullshit

goddamnit i hate this new marauder design



alternatively its manufacturing could be changed so that it becomes dirt cheap, that might balance it, but they sure arent going to do that.


Uhh, giving more dps is power creep, and is never considered reverse creep.
In order to reverse power creep, CCP would need to nerf pirate and faction.
Not buff marauder.

To the rest of your comment.
The Golem was my dream ship back in the day as a newbie when I scanned down an older player who was blasting away at a lvl 5 mission with 3 cruise golem.
From that day my goal was to train into a golem.
I eventually got there, with some detours on the way to get into an Isk boat here and there.
Once I had finally trained and bought a golem, I took it out for a spin.
At the time I was in gallente space.
The very first mission I flew, I was unable to target past 10km... It was hell.
I later joined a corp in caldari space, thinking that was the area the golem was intended for.
I soon realized that I was spending half my missions being perma jammed.

Pretty shortly after, I traded the golem straight up for a tengu.
The tengu outperformed by leaps and bounds. Now, this had a bit to do with the OP tengu and heavy missiles, but it out performed by so much that it was obvious the golem was broken.

The Golem with bastion is exactly what I thought I was seeing all those years ago when I scammed down that player and his alts.
This ship is now performing in every bit of the manner that I had hoped it would.
I no longer have to watch aggroes or triggers, I can't be stopped from firing, the tank is damn near unbreakable in lvl 4 missions, the dps is significant enough to make a difference, it can travel 100km in a min 15 seconds or so.
The only thing it doesn't have going for it is tractor range.

All in all, I would say I'm quite satisfied, and apart from the tractors, it's exactly what I want in a pve boat...
Who knows, maybe I'll try to get into a corp with lvl 5 missions.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6884 - 2013-10-28 20:20:07 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Uhh, giving more dps is power creep, and is never considered reverse creep.
In order to reverse power creep, CCP would need to nerf pirate and faction.
Not buff marauder.

Pirate, Faction and Tengu... three horsemen of the apocalypse right there.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
mostro
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#6885 - 2013-10-28 20:21:24 UTC
I cannot understand any of the Logic in this garbage, all I can think is that you are deep in the market selling pirate BS's

Anyone want to buy a Varg, looks like they ruined it and I need a Machariel
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#6886 - 2013-10-28 20:28:58 UTC
mostro wrote:
I cannot understand any of the Logic in this garbage, all I can think is that you are deep in the market selling pirate BS's

Yeah, the art of reading with comprehension is dying.

Quote:
Anyone want to buy a Varg, looks like they ruined it and I need a Machariel

Contract it to me anywhere in hisec. Since the ship is worthless to you now, hope 1 million is enough for your trouble?
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6887 - 2013-10-28 20:30:11 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

Uhh, giving more dps is power creep, and is never considered reverse creep.
In order to reverse power creep, CCP would need to nerf pirate and faction.
Not buff marauder.

here let me help you
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=power+creep

a dmg increase doesnt necessarily mean power creep
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6888 - 2013-10-28 20:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
mostro wrote:
Anyone want to buy a Varg, looks like they ruined it and I need a Machariel

Enjoy your Machariel or T3 until the nerf bat. I'm not even sure the Faction stuff that's been previously rebalanced is safe... If anyone can rationalize "power creep" and the new SoE ships, I'm all ears.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#6889 - 2013-10-28 20:52:56 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
I really hate how they outright refuse to give this ship more dps - the thing is that if ANY ship deserves it, it is the marauder. There is No reason that the marauder shouldn't outright outdps pirate given the same cost and the higher skill requirement.

Blops have even higher skill requirements and their DPS is worse than of T1 battleships. And your point is?

And even if your wish is granted, what would be the reason to use Pirate BS after that?

And when lobbied by their users, Pirate BS are improved beyond Marauders the cycle will repeat. When would you stop then? When any or each of them can blap a Titan?

Quote:
And power creep? This is the OPPOSITE of power creep, this is updating an old part of the game that is underpowered because of power creep in the rest of the game. Updating this ship to be Better makes sense to reverse power creep.

Man, you really don't know what balance means, do you?(*)

Quote:
goddamnit i hate this new marauder design

And this is the only your argument which is valid to me. Honestly. Like and dislike are personal matters and everyone has right to opinions against all reason. I like new marauders because I wanted to like them and thus I am willing to forgive them their shortcomings. You don't want to like them so you will not give them credit where it's due. And at such emotional level it's okay.

Though if you want to discuss on more objective grounds, please don't ignore people, me including, who reported how those ships actually perform on test server. It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too.

(*) For the record, if off-topic, Anakin Skywalker actually *did* brought balance. After events of RotS there were Obi Wan and Yoda vs. Vader and Palpatine. Pretty balanced situation if anyone asked me.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6890 - 2013-10-28 21:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
hmskrecik wrote:
It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too.

I think a lot of us were just hoping for something a bit more... meatier. The new model is slowly growing on me, particularly with the advent of the base color change. I really like my Raven; hope they don't change it too much.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#6891 - 2013-10-28 21:10:49 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
chaosgrimm wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

Uhh, giving more dps is power creep, and is never considered reverse creep.
In order to reverse power creep, CCP would need to nerf pirate and faction.
Not buff marauder.

here let me help you
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=power+creep

a dmg increase doesnt necessarily mean power creep

It might not in some special cases but in general it does. Funny, the second link from your link is: http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep . Frankly, I'm not too sure which side of this debate it makes an argument to, but the discussion is quite interesting.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#6892 - 2013-10-28 21:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too.

I think a lot of us were just hoping for something a bit more... meatier. The new model is slowly growing on me, particularly with the advent of the base color change. I really like my Raven; hope they don't change it too much.

To the truth, I was expecting more awesauce too. Those ships I tested both without and with bastion are just okay. But still better.

And speaking of models, well, I did expect Kronos unfolding into Tristan-like shape. So with whatever CCP could come up with I was bound to be disappointed. ;)
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6893 - 2013-10-28 21:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
hmskrecik wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

Uhh, giving more dps is power creep, and is never considered reverse creep.
In order to reverse power creep, CCP would need to nerf pirate and faction.
Not buff marauder.

here let me help you
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=power+creep

a dmg increase doesnt necessarily mean power creep

It might not in some special cases but in general it does. Funny, the second link from your link is: http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep . Frankly, I'm not too sure to which side of this debate it makes an argument, but the discussion is quite interesting.


The power creep occurs when new content / power / whatever makes other content progressively less viable over time, thereby making some other piece of content (and effectively the dev time spent on it) worthless or at least not as valuable as it should be. The 'power' in power creep doesnt necessarily mean dps, dmg, tank, or whatever, but the overall usefulness and viability.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6894 - 2013-10-28 21:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
hmskrecik wrote:
To the truth, I was expecting more awesauce too. Those ships I tested both without and with bastion are just okay. But still better.

And speaking of models, well, I did expect Kronos unfolding into Tristan-like shape. So with whatever CCP could come up with I was bound to be disappointed. ;)

I don't think there's any question the new Marauders are better overall (with a few minor exceptions). Just that for the amount of skill training required, it's a bit of a letdown. In terms of the new animations, I think the Kronos is the clear winner. The Paladin and Golem are not bad (for some reason I thought we'd see something with the wings on the Golem). The Vargur has the most potential, they just need to add the glowing effects to the edges of the shields that roll out.

It's actually too bad that Bastion is the same for all Marauders. It would've been neat to have it give each ship a unique bonus.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6895 - 2013-10-28 21:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
hmskrecik wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
I really hate how they outright refuse to give this ship more dps - the thing is that if ANY ship deserves it, it is the marauder. There is No reason that the marauder shouldn't outright outdps pirate given the same cost and the higher skill requirement.

Blops have even higher skill requirements and their DPS is worse than of T1 battleships. And your point is?

And even if your wish is granted, what would be the reason to use Pirate BS after that?

And when lobbied by their users, Pirate BS are improved beyond Marauders the cycle will repeat. When would you stop then? When any or each of them can blap a Titan?

Quote:
And power creep? This is the OPPOSITE of power creep, this is updating an old part of the game that is underpowered because of power creep in the rest of the game. Updating this ship to be Better makes sense to reverse power creep.

Man, you really don't know what balance means, do you?(*)

Quote:
goddamnit i hate this new marauder design

And this is the only your argument which is valid to me. Honestly. Like and dislike are personal matters and everyone has right to opinions against all reason. I like new marauders because I wanted to like them and thus I am willing to forgive them their shortcomings. You don't want to like them so you will not give them credit where it's due. And at such emotional level it's okay.

Though if you want to discuss on more objective grounds, please don't ignore people, me including, who reported how those ships actually perform on test server. It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too.

(*) For the record, if off-topic, Anakin Skywalker actually *did* brought balance. After events of RotS there were Obi Wan and Yoda vs. Vader and Palpatine. Pretty balanced situation if anyone asked me.


pirate is expensive and good but not as skill intensive.
it makes sense to have marauder be similar in output but cheaper isk because of high skill requirements, or making them better while requiring both isk AND skill points.

And my god i wanted to like the new marauder, i really did, i want to fly them.,...theres just no situation where it would be better to use these marauders over a small gang of different ships. (as i dont solo )

power creep causes things to become unbalanced, you can indeed balance the system by buffing an individual part that has been dwarfed by most other parts of the game - the Other parts of the game are what have experienced power creep. In the end, everyones' paper damage will be higher, and tanks will be higher, its a sort of inflation... but its an easier way to re balance the game then it is to nerf EVERYTHING else.

its not about the numbers being in their hundreds vs their thousands, its about the interrelationship between different parts of the game at any one time... artificial inflation of the numbers is irrelevant.




the situation of the pirate ship - being expensive, but over all best at doing most things...

and the marauder - tech2 ship - both expensive AND skill intensive - SUPPOSED to be very good at a niche situation ( although i cant find a situation where i would want to use a bastion'ed marauder over a small gang of non-marauders)

it seems to me that their roles should be reversed XD The expensive and skill intensive ship should be doing what the pirate currently does, while simply expensive should be these niche situations. Obviously they wont do this, but it just seems to make sense. Since the niche situation ship is less desirable, it should have an over all lower cost. While the more desirable ship, should have the over all higher cost.

but this is eve where nothing makes sense and the points dont matter :D
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#6896 - 2013-10-28 22:03:34 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
It's not all roses but it also isn't utter catastrophe too.

I think a lot of us were just hoping for something a bit more... meatier. The new model is slowly growing on me, particularly with the advent of the base color change. I really like my Raven; hope they don't change it too much.

To the truth, I was expecting more awesauce too. Those ships I tested both without and with bastion are just okay. But still better.

And speaking of models, well, I did expect Kronos unfolding into Tristan-like shape. So with whatever CCP could come up with I was bound to be disappointed. ;)


it would be nice if the ships changed shapes more... i was kind of expecting them to shift radically into... looking like a COMPLETELY different ship, like the sails retracting on the vargur and becoming more of a sleek thing, or the paladin going vertical or what have you. The vargur, so far, seems pretty disappointing, but whatever. I mean they arent terrible, but the negatives of the bastion mechanics make the prettyness not worth it
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6897 - 2013-10-28 22:49:20 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
it would be nice if the ships changed shapes more... i was kind of expecting them to shift radically into... looking like a COMPLETELY different ship, like the sails retracting on the vargur and becoming more of a sleek thing, or the paladin going vertical or what have you. The vargur, so far, seems pretty disappointing, but whatever. I mean they arent terrible, but the negatives of the bastion mechanics make the prettyness not worth it

I would still pay good money to see the Vargur's plates changed to yellow feathers to make it look like a giant chicken. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6898 - 2013-10-29 01:45:32 UTC
Any update on the Bastion Module no longer needing an invention skill? Pretty please Fozzie and Rise?
zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#6899 - 2013-10-29 02:28:14 UTC
i have very interesting question, for now CCP Rise introduced RHML. shouldn't golem have role bonus to those ?

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6900 - 2013-10-29 03:35:51 UTC
zbaaca wrote:
i have very interesting question, for now CCP Rise introduced RHML. shouldn't golem have role bonus to those ?


CCP has already stated that existing bs class missile bonuses will not effect rhmls, and no be would be getting a bonus to rhmls.

My assumption here is that they're balanced with damage high enough to make a difference without bonuses.
However, we won't be getting bs class dps out of them, and I'm wondering about range, cause without range bonuses, they'll be fairly useless....