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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6461 - 2013-10-21 16:36:05 UTC
As long as we're keeping tractor bonuses (which I do not disagree with), I would like to see them increased to a 200% range/velocity bonus instead of 100%. The Noctis shouldn't be offended by this, as it has 300% range/velocity bonuses as well as a 25% bonus to salvager/tractor cycle time.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6462 - 2013-10-21 17:11:24 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
As long as we're keeping tractor bonuses (which I do not disagree with), I would like to see them increased to a 200% range/velocity bonus instead of 100%. The Noctis shouldn't be offended by this, as it has 300% range/velocity bonuses as well as a 25% bonus to salvager/tractor cycle time.

Yeah, how about no.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6463 - 2013-10-21 18:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
As long as we're keeping tractor bonuses (which I do not disagree with), I would like to see them increased to a 200% range/velocity bonus instead of 100%. The Noctis shouldn't be offended by this, as it has 300% range/velocity bonuses as well as a 25% bonus to salvager/tractor cycle time.

Yeah, how about no.


What an informative reply. You have completely explained your views and why you disagree with what I've said. You've made a clear, well-articulated counterpoint and obviously spent a lot of time thinking about what you wanted to say and how to say it.

Oh wait, you didn't do anything remotely like any of that at all.

If you're going to be rude about it, at least explain why you disagree with it. Ytterbium already indicated the tractor bonuses are staying, so they may as well be updated. If tractor bonuses on the hull offends you, take it up with Ytterbium and not me.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6464 - 2013-10-21 18:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
What an informative reply. You have completely explained your views and why you disagree with what I've said. You've made a clear, well-articulated counterpoint and obviously spent a lot of time thinking about what you wanted to say and how to say it.

Oh wait, you didn't do anything remotely like any of that at all.

If you're going to be rude about it, at least explain why you disagree with it. Ytterbium already indicated the tractor bonuses are staying, so they may as well be updated. If tractor bonuses on the hull offends you, take it up with Ytterbium and not me.

Fine, let me expand on my response.
1. Marauders already have the largest cargo capacity of any battleship.
2. Marauders will thus be able to carry several of the new 'tractor' units (one speedy beam per unit).
3. Marauders will effectively have their tractor ability significantly enhanced.
4. So yeah, how about no...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6465 - 2013-10-21 19:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Fine, let me expand on my response.
1. Marauders already have the largest cargo capacity of any battleship.
2. Marauders will thus be able to carry several of the new 'tractor' units (one speedy beam per unit).
3. Marauders will effectively have their tractor ability significantly enhanced.
4. So yeah, how about no...


Point 1 has nothing to do with tractoring or salvaging or not.

In response to 2, it has already been stated that the beam will in fact [i]not[/[i] be "speedy", unless you consider "no velocity bonus" to be fast.

In response to 3, that was the basic idea behind what I said, yes. In terms of raw salvaging power it still won't compete with a Noctis' eight dedicated high slots.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6466 - 2013-10-21 19:29:15 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Point 1 has nothing to do with tractoring or salvaging or not.

In response to 2, it has already been stated that the beam will in fact [i]not[/[i] be "speedy", unless you consider "no velocity bonus" to be fast.

In response to 3, that was the basic idea behind what I said, yes. In terms of raw salvaging power it still won't compete with a Noctis' eight dedicated high slots.

It doesn't matter how "fast" it is, because if you can drop a few of these things you've just gained several tractor beams that can 'slowboat' the wrecks/cargo to a fixed location. With the bonus you're proposing, yes - that would compete with a Noctis.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6467 - 2013-10-21 19:37:05 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Point 1 has nothing to do with tractoring or salvaging or not.

In response to 2, it has already been stated that the beam will in fact [i]not[/[i] be "speedy", unless you consider "no velocity bonus" to be fast.

In response to 3, that was the basic idea behind what I said, yes. In terms of raw salvaging power it still won't compete with a Noctis' eight dedicated high slots.

It doesn't matter how "fast" it is, because if you can drop a few of these things you've just gained several tractor beams that can 'slowboat' the wrecks/cargo to a fixed location. With the bonus you're proposing, yes - that would compete with a Noctis.

Has anything been stated regarding the size of these structures or details/restrictions on deploying them? That would be pretty important to the discussion prior to assuming we would end up in a competition with the Noctis. Also marauders would still lack the salvager cycle bonus of the Noctis.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6468 - 2013-10-21 19:40:54 UTC
The only thing I've found out so far is that they tractor only one item at a time and have no velocity bonus. I do however anticipate that they'll be in the next build of Rubicon that hits SiSi - although I've been wrong before.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6469 - 2013-10-21 19:41:01 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Point 1 has nothing to do with tractoring or salvaging or not.

In response to 2, it has already been stated that the beam will in fact [i]not[/[i] be "speedy", unless you consider "no velocity bonus" to be fast.

In response to 3, that was the basic idea behind what I said, yes. In terms of raw salvaging power it still won't compete with a Noctis' eight dedicated high slots.

It doesn't matter how "fast" it is, because if you can drop a few of these things you've just gained several tractor beams that can 'slowboat' the wrecks/cargo to a fixed location. With the bonus you're proposing, yes - that would compete with a Noctis.

Has anything been stated regarding the size of these structures or details/restrictions on deploying them? That would be pretty important to the discussion prior to assuming we would end up in a competition with the Noctis. Also marauders would still lack the salvager cycle bonus of the Noctis.


The only thing we have heard is that they don't have a bonus to tractor speed.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6470 - 2013-10-21 19:41:42 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Has anything been stated regarding the size of these structures or details/restrictions on deploying them? That would be pretty important to the discussion prior to assuming we would end up in a competition with the Noctis. Also marauders would still lack the salvager cycle bonus of the Noctis.

Not that I've been able to ascertain. The only thing I picked up from the EVE Vegas stuff this weekend is that these won't compete/replace a Noctis. On that note, the Noctis should be able to sport a few of these as well.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6471 - 2013-10-21 19:47:45 UTC
I have an unbonused tractor on my L3 fleet cane. It's pretty slow.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6472 - 2013-10-21 19:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I have an unbonused tractor on my L3 fleet cane. It's pretty slow.

If you (can) drop a few of these at mission start and they won't be attacked by NPCs, it'll add up by missions end. I'm not suggesting it will replace anything, but combined with a Marauder or Noctis it will vastly enhance the salvaging component.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Merciful Deletion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6473 - 2013-10-21 19:54:40 UTC
It would be nice if they increased the tractor range to 150% to match 60Km of drones. Out of all the changes I thought this would be been looked at first.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6474 - 2013-10-21 19:55:21 UTC
150% is a nice bonus too.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6475 - 2013-10-21 19:57:01 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
150% is a nice bonus too.

0 works too. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
#6476 - 2013-10-21 20:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorororo
After hearing a few more details about the deployables, I'm now a lot more content with the Marauder changes.

The tractor unit has estimated cost of 5 million, and is reusable. All deployables are 50m3. Also has a deploy time of about 45 secs (edit : all deployables), so yeah good luck deploying a whole bunch of these unless you plan to sit in one spot for the whole room.

What I'm pumped about is the depot. Costs about 500k ISK. And I think this works perfectly with Bastion. Now you can mount MJD, immediately close range and then Bastion up and plonk a depot down. Refit guns to suit range, if you need to you can adjust tank. If frigates get too close, switch to triple webs. If next gate is at a inconvenient distance, swap out to MWD.

This addresses a lot of the concerns I had with Bastion and doesn't force me to do MJD sniping.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6477 - 2013-10-21 20:27:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Dorororo wrote:
What I'm pumped about is the depot. Costs about 500k ISK. And I think this works perfectly with Bastion. Now you can mount MJD, immediately close range and then Bastion up and plonk a depot down. Refit guns to suit range, if you need to you can adjust tank. If frigates get too close, switch to triple webs. If next gate is at a inconvenient distance, swap out to MWD.

500k ISK is way, way too cheap.... Since you've outlined an unintended way of exploiting the depots, here's another. You're about to die in PvP, so drop one of these and strip your complete fit into it. Soon as your enemies shoot the depot it goes into 48-hour reinforcement mode.

Oh, but wait... You hop into a Tornado with 1400mm artillery and start sniping frigates from 100km+ as they jump to plexes. After they lose a few and decide to gang you, drop a depot and swap out your lows for warb stabilizers and GTFO of dodge. Or a short-range fit and smoke them all instead.

With pre-saved fits and modules, this will be near-instantaneous. Unless there's some catch the depots are going to be seriously OP. And all for the low, low price of 500k ISK. Talk about the ultimate power creep...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
#6478 - 2013-10-21 20:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorororo
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dorororo wrote:
What I'm pumped about is the depot. Costs about 500k ISK. And I think this works perfectly with Bastion. Now you can mount MJD, immediately close range and then Bastion up and plonk a depot down. Refit guns to suit range, if you need to you can adjust tank. If frigates get too close, switch to triple webs. If next gate is at a inconvenient distance, swap out to MWD.

500k ISK is way, way too cheap.... Since you've outlined an unintended way of exploiting the depots, here's another. You're about to die in PvP, so drop one of these and strip your complete fit into it. Soon as your enemies shoot the depot it goes into 48-hour reinforcement mode.

Oh, but wait... You hop into a Tornado with 1400mm artillery and start sniping frigates from 100km+ as they jump to plexes. After they lose a few and decide to gang you, drop a depot and swap out your lows for warb stabilizers and GTFO of dodge. Or a short-range fit and smoke them all instead.

With pre-saved fits and modules, this will be near-instantaneous. Unless there's some catch the depots are going to be seriously OP. And all for the low, low price of 500k ISK. Talk about the ultimate power creep...


45 second deploy time. And I would surmise that when it is in reinforced, it can't be used.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6479 - 2013-10-21 20:34:38 UTC
Dorororo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dorororo wrote:
What I'm pumped about is the depot. Costs about 500k ISK. And I think this works perfectly with Bastion. Now you can mount MJD, immediately close range and then Bastion up and plonk a depot down. Refit guns to suit range, if you need to you can adjust tank. If frigates get too close, switch to triple webs. If next gate is at a inconvenient distance, swap out to MWD.

500k ISK is way, way too cheap.... Since you've outlined an unintended way of exploiting the depots, here's another. You're about to die in PvP, so drop one of these and strip your complete fit into it. Soon as your enemies shoot the depot it goes into 48-hour reinforcement mode.

Oh, but wait... You hop into a Tornado with 1400mm artillery and start sniping frigates from 100km+ as they jump to plexes. After they lose a few and decide to gang you, drop a depot and swap out your lows for warb stabilizers and GTFO of dodge. Or a short-range fit and smoke them all instead.

With pre-saved fits and modules, this will be near-instantaneous. Unless there's some catch the depots are going to be seriously OP. And all for the low, low price of 500k ISK. Talk about the ultimate power creep...


45 second deploy time.


Depends on limitations..

Can you deploy more than one at a time and at the same time?
Can they be within 5km of each other and other objects?

If yes, on these, it would be nice...

My plan would be to drop some of these in a mission site to start tractoring while i'm clearing the rest of the site, then come back with a noctis fitted full salvage to collect loot, salvage, and structures.
sarkenna
RIVVEN Inc
#6480 - 2013-10-21 20:45:24 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
    • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
    • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.


I would really prefer that change, i would like to make this ship more independend from ewar modules in the midslots. People don't really fit more than two targetpainter i guess and they could still fit one and let the second one kind of be replaced with the explosion radius bonus. That would still free up a medslot to make use of the newfound tankyness.