Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You mwd in high dps range(around 30-40km) drop the sentry's and kill stuff from there(yes you can still move since with the mwd being a few km away from your sentry's doesn't matter). You hit frigs that you missed at 18km with the overheated FN web and one volley them. If they get close you can still web them down reduce transversal to zero and kill them with rails(that is still faster than using light drones). Also killing a bunch of cruisers is way faster with the web than adjusting speed and vector for any of them(that takes forever and is a reason why the web saves so much time with the hull).



Blasters don't have rail range, even with a 50% falloff bonus. A 425mm rail with 2 TCs got 47+49km what means max dps up to 50km with antimatter, on the Kronos on sissi antimatter loses most of the dps beyond 20km and null beyond 45km, because of falloff. Blaster dps projection is bad even with the falloff bonus(it is a lot less than on the vargur or mach and you need to move this hulls a lot to get good dps out of them), it gets even worse if you can't even move(because if you want to you throw the slot advantage for tank bastion would bring right out of the window). Overall the current rail Kronos is vastly more effective than the rail Kronos on sissi(because of the lacking speed and sentry dps) and the blaster version isn't much better because of the stop and go game play combined with low range.

Everything mentioned here negatively impacts isk per hour.
As mentioned previously, anything that:
a) requires a heavy tank but not logi
b) has a lot of ewar
gets better. Everything else, including most level 4s, gets worse.


... really? Effects of slower max speed:
* torp golem takes longer to get in range
* short range turret boats take longer to get in range / cant reduce falloff as quickly
both mean less isk / per hour


Okay... what? You have listed and we have discussed several things that reduce isk per hour for marauders. The only reason someone would support those things from a PvE standpoint is if they believe that isk per hours wasnt the most important thing... and you just said that it was.

If you dont care about isk per hour, why not do your 4s in an assault frig? lvl4s are like Rat Mining. Would you use a retriever to solo mine in highsec if there was a mackinaw sitting in you hanger? but.. but... the difference b4 drones is only 5%. Move to the diff in battleships like vargur vs mach, mach can fit a tank for 4s and has around 9.5% better raw dmg + twice the bandwidth. If you are using a TQ marauder and not looting, I would be very curious to know what your justification is for using one over a pirateship that you say would earn you more isk per hour (and it will b/c you dont loot). I mean, saying "go use a pirateship" is a bad PvE implementation because there are currently justifiable isk per hour reasons to use both on a regular basis. After these changes, pirates / faction alternatives will the only thing to use in terms of isk per hour.


You said you dont believe isk per hour is everything.... this is why you see it as the only significant nerf.


Your idea of balance is that it is okay for the only counter to a ship to be: "bring more ppl"....?

Neuts are lame vs marauders b/c of dual ASB setups and the marauders' cargo capacity... esp for the vargur and golem who dont need cap to fire.

.... lawl, i just finished writing a long reply to hmskrecik...
Then I see this comment..

You havent even tested it?!?!?!

Have i mentioned with one word BASTION. Bastion came, but sensor strength, scan resolution and cpu/PG buff is enough. and this changes would be okay for 25 m³.

This the moment when I stop arguing. From now on the only correct course is to test how it works in practice. Which incidentally answers question from your other post: nope I didn't test and I'm not gonna test on SiSi for reasons beside this discussion.


Kronos with MWD+blasters yields almost the same ISK/hr like the railgun version. Honestly, it's slightly worse but only so. With better falloff and ability to MJD almost at will I expect it only to improve.


Dude... There is a difference between "the most important factor (while other are considered too)" and "the only important factor (when other are not)". If the ISK/hr is the only thing you care about, it's okay and let's agree to disagree.

There are other factors which I do take into consideration and which have their weights to me.


Since you asked. Right after raw performance, the next most important thing to me is fitting versatility. There is generally the only way to fit pirate battleship for missions while marauders leave more wiggling room. Esp. with Kronos with which I can complete most missions while having empty one low and two mid slots. No way you can have so many utilities on Vindi or Mach. Also not negligible is matter of investment. You can fit marauder with Tech2 modules only and you're good to go. Pirate BS require at least some pimpage, sometimes bordering on becoming loot pinatas. Large cargo and ammo conservation are nice too.

The thing is, to me and to many other people pirate BS have better performance than marauders. The question nobody asks, lest to answer it, is HOW MUCH BETTER? I asked it myself and gave myself an answer, which (again, to me) is: not that much. Which means that if I have before-the-end-of-month financial goal, I'm going to grind with pirate hulls while if I rather want to shoot some stuff without breaking sweat, or go to operate far from my home base, I'm better off with marauders.

Funny you mentioned it. I did run some L4s in assfrigs. Because I could. Not the most efficient way in fact but fun to do once or twice to relieve some boredom.


No, my point is, that "bring more marauders" is not the only valid one. This is just the most basic test but in itself it doesn't guarantee that the ship is balanced. It might be not. We'll see.

Scroll back a couple pages.
There was a player that put up a design that looks freaking awesome.

The first design he put out would make for a mean golem.

This, in a nut shell.

What matters to me


All of these effect isk/hr.
If you can't full room aggro, you're either going to have to warp out, kite, or watch aggroes and triggers. All of which reduce isk/hr.

If you can't target or track due to ewar, you're losing isk/hr.

The better damage you can apply at range, the less you and/or the npcs have to travel, which increases isk/hr.

MJD makes a huge difference to isk/hr as well. What many people aren't factoring is the penalties of MWD.
It reduces your overall cap, and consumes cap quickly. This means you'll either have to sit and build cap before you use the next gate, or you'll have to burn cap boosters.. cap boosters cost isk = less isk per hour.

Less weapons = less ammo used = more isk/hr.

Many people don't factor in ammo and cap booster costs when it comes to isk/hr. This is why I don't use and ASB.
I have a cap booster on my Golem in the event of an emergency, but so far on the test server, I've only used it once when my shield booster didn't deactivate when I told it to.

A ab is pointless since you fit a mwd, same as a omni link with 2 sentry's at best. Way faster means insta killing frigs that get to close, saving 2-3 volleys on most close cruisers and even on BS. I mission most of the time in Angel space with it and the 90% web is one of the most useful features because you can hit at close range(what the domi and hype don't do at all).



I flown it for about 6h L4 and a few low sec annos on sissi with blaster, with rails, it sucks in both ways. It is not that this is the first time I fly it, I got one and fly it since years and know how the use it to get the best results. You bring it in range where you can do max dps, you use sentry drones and you web stuff down what comes to close. You know why 90% of the people vouch for the mach as best mission ship? It is not the dps(it is good but not that special once you fly real gank fittings) it is not the range(it does a lot worse at 40+ km than the rail Kronos), it is because they actually move the ship around to apply dps in a efficient manner, the same thing you can do with a Kronos and it is fairly good at it(with rails, not with blasters).

"Not really", 40km for us mortals with T1 tractor beams.

And anyway what's the point of tractoring then MJD and tractoring again? Because if the point is looting a mission objective, using MJD twice to loot are 2 minutes wasted, I'd rather undock my noctis. If range was greater wrecks would be packed together for noctis to salvage. I currently run the noctis (lvl 4) with 6 tractor beams and 2 salvagers, a decent TB bonus on marauders could reduce the number of TBs.

If you are a snipper, and MJD + Bastion will have many snippers, that tractor range is only useful to loot frig wrecks which are the only that will get below 50km, which are anyway generally useless. And as someone said golem can hit at 150km, and paladin will be over 100km too with tachyons.

Why don't we leave judging the usefulness about how good you can apply damage with a 90% web to target to people that solo pvped in plategank megas back in the days? Mkay? As a hint if it is good enough for me, it probably gives you 103% applied dps on the target and the reason to fly a Kronos over the rail+sentry hype or domi(that do more on paper dps) is damage application.



It is a massive wast of time, web it one shoot it vs 30-40s to kill it with small drones, what cost you about 5400 damage on another target with sentry's in the meantime. Also you can apply 100% sentry damage on everything bigger than a frig even at point blank with the 90% web.



Since you don't realize it, you wast 30-50% of your dps(sentry dps and a bit chunk of the turret dps) by mjding away in a turret ship. This is the reason why some people use a mwd and a web, because it is "drum roll" a lot faster compared to your method.