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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#6361 - 2013-10-20 11:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Hanna Cyrus
My main doesn't matter, the people who know me, know this. If all the arguments you have, is not knowing about the ignore char button in the forum, so i think you don't have real arguments against it?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6362 - 2013-10-20 11:39:33 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They don't, infact, they are very good in a few areas.


unfortunately, none of them in an area that doesn't just make them better at what they're already relegated to. or, so it seems.

i know that looking at them, and the ccp comments on them, i have no reason to pick one for incursions over a pirate hull even after the pirate rebalance.


Well lets be honest here, they are a ship with bonuses to local active tanks. They have never been the best choice for an RR fleet because they have always had a wasted bonus.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6363 - 2013-10-20 11:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
My main doesn't matter, the people who know me, know this. If all the arguments you have, is not knowing about the ignore char button in the forum, so i think you don't have real arguments against it?


Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups. I went into this just for the kronos but I found that the golem is a good deal more adaptable and quite possibly one of the most dangerous BS around.

The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups and tactics.
Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#6364 - 2013-10-20 12:06:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
My main doesn't matter, the people who know me, know this. If all the arguments you have, is not knowing about the ignore char button in the forum, so i think you don't have real arguments against it?


Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups.

The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups.


I'm sorry, i'm definatly no min/max player, i agree often with your posts (have i said this?). A marauder should not be OP, but it's a specialist hull, so in it's niche it should be better as an T1 ship, or? I'm a new player friendly person. I like helping new players get in the game and fly missions with them, i try to introduce them in many ways in this game. If i was new i saw a marauder and then i had a goal - i want to fly this ship! Why should a new player want to skill to a marauder if it doesn't perform a piece better then a T1?

still open:

Quote:

#6355 Posted: 2013.10.20 09:56 | Report

I'm sorry to say, that i think, that maybe 0,1% of all players can use a Marauder in PVP (includes ISK/SP and PVP skill). I never will, i even don't go on a frig/cruiser roam, when my clone jump isn't ready, because my pod costs a lot more then the ship. And my pod is a lot cheaper then a Marauder. If anyone writes again money is no factor, so he is right for maybe less than 2% players of the complete server, for the rest of us it matters.

If you will tell people, 08/15 carebares will go to lowsec doing lvl 5, with this ships, i don't believe it. I think some lowsec corps will do it, as they do it right now and maybe a few others. My opinion is: Lvl 5 should be teamplay, equally incursions and WH.

What CCP want to do is something that's an "impossible mission" on this ship class, it will burt hurt the PVE players (thats the customers of this ship) and will be calmingly to the PVP players. But it's a string thats follow to the result, that noone is pleased really. One side say: It's too strong! We can't break your tank! The other side says: What the hell? I don't need tank, i need dps! (Irony detected)

Why inventing this class new? Ah i forgot, they invested time doing a animation and invested a lot of money in an idea, that no real PVE player wants(exceptions are the rule). It's an effort to make this shipclass more viable in PVP, i ask for which persons? The normal eve player can't afford it. Maybe a cool animation for the next AT?

I tested all 4 Marauders. My thoughts were: Yay cool, meh, wtf?, sucks. If you want you can riddle which words fits to the correct marauder. For one weapon system it's absolutly great. For an other it's ok. Two systems would be the losers in this, they want to reinvent the wheel. Don't we have enough response and ideas to handle with it?

Why you try to make all equal and boring? Don't make it to smooth. Two work very good with the Bastion, the other two not, maybe give them other boni or let them work as shortrange platform.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#6365 - 2013-10-20 12:08:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups and tactics.

I have to admit I am with baltec at this one. I couldn't be arsed to setup SiSI but judging from published stats those ships are going to be no worse for what I do now (mostly mission running), if not just much better.

For the record, as of now pirate battleships already outperform marauders and CCP has stated that in the grand scheme it's going to be this way. Deal with it. Also I don't remember anyone stating they are supposed to be used in large fleets.

And with proposed changes they seem to have acquired some PVP viability, for solo and small gangs. To the extent that I, carebear since day one, would consider grabbing one and, excuse a pun, gate crashing a camp or two. Would I burn in fire? Hell yeah! But at least I'd have a chance to have some actual fun.

Lastly, to all who propose alternative rebalancing, let me repeat what I wrote much earlier in this thread: assume your proposed changes went to TQ and now your enemy, griefers, competing incursion fleet, etc, had launched operation against you with your marauders. What can you do to counter? If the only correct answer is "bring more marauders" then your change is NOT balanced.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6366 - 2013-10-20 12:11:52 UTC
They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.

This is their selling point over t1.
Lin Xou
The Explodables
#6367 - 2013-10-20 12:20:17 UTC
Hanna Cyrus wrote:


I tested all 4 Marauders. My thoughts were: Yay cool, meh, wtf?, sucks. If you want you can riddle which words fits to the correct marauder. For one weapon system it's absolutly great. For an other it's ok. Two systems would be the losers in this, they want to reinvent the wheel. Don't we have enough response and ideas to handle with it?



That in fact sums it up in a nutshell.
Lin Xou
The Explodables
#6368 - 2013-10-20 12:20:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin Xou
Shocked
Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#6369 - 2013-10-20 12:33:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
My main doesn't matter, the people who know me, know this. If all the arguments you have, is not knowing about the ignore char button in the forum, so i think you don't have real arguments against it?


Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups. I went into this just for the kronos but I found that the golem is a good deal more adaptable and quite possibly one of the most dangerous BS around.

The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups and tactics.


Would you use it for PvP? Can you afford it? I can't. I would use a nano Phoon, it does the job, is much more mobile and can fit the MJD as a O **** button too. The Problem with a marauder in PVP is that a t1 hull can it cheaper.

Besides i don't like that any sub class ship is immune to something, immunity is not the solution, even a module that nails you on the ground.

But it's advertising, so it will hit us Nov. 19. no matter what we will post here.
Enduros
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#6370 - 2013-10-20 13:09:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups. I went into this just for the kronos but I found that the golem is a good deal more adaptable and quite possibly one of the most dangerous BS around.


How are these things good for anoms with a bastion running? You get almost no extra projection from bastion and you are stuck for a minute at a time. I'll tell you how it's gonna work: you will die in a fire when someone warps on you because you are stuck for 60sec.

There are 2 winners here. The paladin that can now bring death because tachs do great dmg. The other is the kronos as it can use neutrons finally, very situational I'd say, but stupid dps. The varg is not good compared to those 2 because arti sucks and you need movement for AC.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6371 - 2013-10-20 13:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
My main doesn't matter, the people who know me, know this. If all the arguments you have, is not knowing about the ignore char button in the forum, so i think you don't have real arguments against it?


Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups. I went into this just for the kronos but I found that the golem is a good deal more adaptable and quite possibly one of the most dangerous BS around.

The only arguments against this change is coming from pve min/max players mostly from incursions. Most seem to have not bothered to test these ships and the few who have only tested old setups and tactics.


Would you use it for PvP? Can you afford it? I can't. I would use a nano Phoon, it does the job, is much more mobile and can fit the MJD as a O **** button too. The Problem with a marauder in PVP is that a t1 hull can it cheaper.

Besides i don't like that any sub class ship is immune to something, immunity is not the solution, even a module that nails you on the ground.

But it's advertising, so it will hit us Nov. 19. no matter what we will post here.


Yes I will be using them and yes I can afford it. The only reason I chose the navy mega over the vindicator in baltecfleet was for that spare high slot to fit a firework launcher.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6372 - 2013-10-20 13:20:42 UTC
Enduros wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Aside from the weeks of testing these ships trying everthing I can think of from null anoms to sniping to brawling and even anti frig setups. I went into this just for the kronos but I found that the golem is a good deal more adaptable and quite possibly one of the most dangerous BS around.


How are these things good for anoms with a bastion running? You get almost no extra projection from bastion and you are stuck for a minute at a time. I'll tell you how it's gonna work: you will die in a fire when someone warps on you because you are stuck for 60sec.

There are 2 winners here. The paladin that can now bring death because tachs do great dmg. The other is the kronos as it can use neutrons finally, very situational I'd say, but stupid dps. The varg is not good compared to those 2 because arti sucks and you need movement for AC.


Kronos in dek for me.
Mr Holla
PsyCorp
#6373 - 2013-10-20 13:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Holla
after reading a fair few posts i see ppl complaining with no real Fixers to the problem,...
the 5 turrents and smaller damage bonus for the rolls is a nice idea but i dont think CCP
likes the idea of giving out more damage output

so this is my take which i hope will be the best of both worlds :)
TQ marauders with bastion
link below

My Idea for Marauders https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3762020&#post3762020
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6374 - 2013-10-20 13:45:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.

This is their selling point over t1.


'more damage' is subjective.

When considering raw dps potential of t1, faction, pirate, and marauder, marauders have the lowest max dps potential of the groups listed.

Considering that most of the time
t1 -> faction = raw dmg increase
t1 -> pirate = raw dmg increase
t1 -> t2 = raw dmg increase

i find it irritating that for battleships, t1 ->t2 = dmg decrease.


Also:
* many ppl enjoy the exclusive looting bonus from the tractors
* a subset of pve ppl like taking advantage of short range weapons
* most currently use them for pve

CCP:
* releases a looting structure
* gives them a long range focus
* nerfs dmg potential to add a gimmicky PvP component, that may see limited, if any, use.

I could live with marauders if ccp would do one of the following:
a) give them drone bandwidth and bay over t1
b) give raw wep dmg advantages over t1
c) give raw dmg increases in bastion mode
d) give sp equal to / refund points invested into marauders + allow a BS of my choice to be redeemed.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6375 - 2013-10-20 13:55:29 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.

This is their selling point over t1.


'more damage' is subjective.




They have better damage application at longer range. This is why they are ideal at being snipers.
Kate stark
#6376 - 2013-10-20 14:10:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They don't, infact, they are very good in a few areas.


unfortunately, none of them in an area that doesn't just make them better at what they're already relegated to. or, so it seems.

i know that looking at them, and the ccp comments on them, i have no reason to pick one for incursions over a pirate hull even after the pirate rebalance.


Well lets be honest here, they are a ship with bonuses to local active tanks. They have never been the best choice for an RR fleet because they have always had a wasted bonus.


indeed, at the end of the day there will always be 1 type of ship for incursions because it's the best and bugger the rest. at least this way i haven't got to purchase a new hull and newer players won't have BS V as a rather large roadblock to joining incursions.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6377 - 2013-10-20 14:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.

This is their selling point over t1.


'more damage' is subjective.




They have better damage application at longer range. This is why they are ideal at being snipers.


a red herring

"better range and more damage" is very different from "more damage at range". They still have the lowest raw dmg potential of combat BS t1, faction, and pirate alternatives in most cases, which is inconsistent with the way T2 ships have typically worked in combat lines throughout the game.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6378 - 2013-10-20 15:05:19 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Every time i would see a vargur in bastion i would get a scanner, a ceptor and some arties. You just have to coordinate alpha and it dies. A double LASB on TQ was already hard to beat for a gang. but alpha always did the job. Now with this fat cow marauders you just need to identify the fitting and it is dead.

OFC a gang of those marauders is a hard nut to crack, but a gang of them would be much more dangerous if they would move and rr each other. Awesome resists, buffer against alpha and quite good damage.

A solo marauder might not be beaten by a small pvp group, but it will kill nothing either. You just have to fly away, turn your face to him and scream: Ha ha. So boring.

Then you will come with the argument, the marauder will come with the new e-war frigates. Yeah, but then they will ignore the marauder and kill the other stuff first.


A bastioned Marauder has like 150k EHP if they overload their hardeners. You're not going to alpha it down.
Rexxorr
Perkone
Caldari State
#6379 - 2013-10-20 15:15:31 UTC
For lvl 4s these marauders are now isk kings.

Kill, loot, salvage all at the same time.
No more pesky TD, damps, or jamming to slow you down.

If you pay attn the cost to gank you will be much higher...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6380 - 2013-10-20 15:22:03 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They get you much better tank, ewar immunity, better range and more damage, better cap management and a bonus to mjd time.

This is their selling point over t1.


'more damage' is subjective.




They have better damage application at longer range. This is why they are ideal at being snipers.


a red herring

"better range and more damage" is very different from "more damage at range". They still have the lowest raw dmg potential of combat BS t1, faction, and pirate alternatives in most cases, which is inconsistent with the way T2 ships have typically worked in combat lines throughout the game.


At range the marauder will out damage most other BS. As has been said, they have more damage, just not by giving them a blanket buff. Todays snipers cannot match the power projection of these new marauders.