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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6341 - 2013-10-20 07:50:52 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I still don't get all the crying about webs...

These ships have to countered somehow.
If they have stasis web bonuses, them they can't be countered.
They would have uber tank, long range, MJD, AND close range.

At that point the only thing that would be able to hurt them would be a dread...
Sounds pretty counter intuitive and OP as hell.



cap warfare, so gedddon, bahl, or 2 curses is the ships counter.

any cruiser, desi, or frig orbiting under 1000m wont be hit by any of them but the golem. And if you can't kill light drones while orbiting, well.

Nefra Ravenheart
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6342 - 2013-10-20 08:00:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They are no longer pve only. CCP have made this very clear, they do not want a combat ship that is bad at most combat. Also t1 and faction ships are indeed intended to be viable in pvp which means that yes, they should be better in some situations than t2. Thats what blanced means.


I guess HACs and T3 cruisers are wildly unbalanced then. The point is to make them at least equal to pirate and faction battleships for PVE, and if they add an extra gimmick that no-one ever uses that's fine too.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6343 - 2013-10-20 08:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Shantetha wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I still don't get all the crying about webs...

These ships have to countered somehow.
If they have stasis web bonuses, them they can't be countered.
They would have uber tank, long range, MJD, AND close range.

At that point the only thing that would be able to hurt them would be a dread...
Sounds pretty counter intuitive and OP as hell.



cap warfare, so gedddon, bahl, or 2 curses is the ships counter.

any cruiser, desi, or frig orbiting under 1000m wont be hit by any of them but the golem. And if you can't kill light drones while orbiting, well.



Bonused webs with blaster would rip apart cruisers. Most(99.9%) small gangs do not have geddons with them and a ship like the golem isnt all that vulnerable to neuts and will be slamming on smaller ships thanks to the new rage heavies. Those free high slots also mean you can either web, neut and kill frigates with drones or just web and smartbomb. This removes most scrams so you can just mjd away if you need to.

They can already be a tough nut to crack even at close range, no need to make them even better and thus, srep on the toes of the other BS.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6344 - 2013-10-20 08:09:54 UTC
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They are no longer pve only. CCP have made this very clear, they do not want a combat ship that is bad at most combat. Also t1 and faction ships are indeed intended to be viable in pvp which means that yes, they should be better in some situations than t2. Thats what blanced means.


I guess HACs and T3 cruisers are wildly unbalanced then. The point is to make them at least equal to pirate and faction battleships for PVE, and if they add an extra gimmick that no-one ever uses that's fine too.


T1 cruisers are still very viable vs hacs and T3 are lined up for a heavy nerf now. Making marauders equal to the pirate boats would invalidate them as you would have the most firepower coupled with the biggest subcap tank in a package with better range, better resists, bonus to mjd and ewar immunity. Simply far too powerful.
Nefra Ravenheart
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6345 - 2013-10-20 08:25:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They are no longer pve only. CCP have made this very clear, they do not want a combat ship that is bad at most combat. Also t1 and faction ships are indeed intended to be viable in pvp which means that yes, they should be better in some situations than t2. Thats what blanced means.


I guess HACs and T3 cruisers are wildly unbalanced then. The point is to make them at least equal to pirate and faction battleships for PVE, and if they add an extra gimmick that no-one ever uses that's fine too.


T1 cruisers are still very viable vs hacs and T3 are lined up for a heavy nerf now. Making marauders equal to the pirate boats would invalidate them as you would have the most firepower coupled with the biggest subcap tank in a package with better range, better resists, bonus to mjd and ewar immunity. Simply far too powerful.


Balancing the ship around the bastion module will force marauders into a niche role like black-ops. If CCP's intent is to make even fewer people fly them they're on the right path.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6346 - 2013-10-20 08:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They are no longer pve only. CCP have made this very clear, they do not want a combat ship that is bad at most combat. Also t1 and faction ships are indeed intended to be viable in pvp which means that yes, they should be better in some situations than t2. Thats what blanced means.


I guess HACs and T3 cruisers are wildly unbalanced then. The point is to make them at least equal to pirate and faction battleships for PVE, and if they add an extra gimmick that no-one ever uses that's fine too.


T1 cruisers are still very viable vs hacs and T3 are lined up for a heavy nerf now. Making marauders equal to the pirate boats would invalidate them as you would have the most firepower coupled with the biggest subcap tank in a package with better range, better resists, bonus to mjd and ewar immunity. Simply far too powerful.


Balancing the ship around the bastion module will force marauders into a niche role like black-ops. If CCP's intent is to make even fewer people fly them they're on the right path.


They will see a lot more action than they do now. The new ones are going to be good snipe boats, good in almost all pve and great in several solo situations. They are also viable without bastion in several roles in fleets but they realy shine with it. The reason why they have balanced the ship around bastion is because the ship would be unbalanced if they did not.
Nefra Ravenheart
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6347 - 2013-10-20 08:38:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


They will see a lot more action than they do now. The new ones are going to be good snipe boats, good in almost all pve and greate in several solo situations.


Without being able to receive remote reps you can't use them in fleet-based PVE and sniping isn't the fastest way to run level 4's.

That's not good at PVE, that's pointless for PVE.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6348 - 2013-10-20 08:46:39 UTC
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


They will see a lot more action than they do now. The new ones are going to be good snipe boats, good in almost all pve and greate in several solo situations.


Without being able to receive remote reps you can't use them in fleet-based PVE and sniping isn't the fastest way to run level 4's.

That's not good at PVE, that's pointless for PVE.


With bastion they dont need RR. And in level 4s they can get away with a two slot tank which means they get much better damage application. In anoms for example a kronos can just park up with blasters and blap away.

A palladin will not suffer from being tracking disrupted and it can fit more damage and tracking mods which makes it better at applying its damage than even a nightmare at a longer range.
Nefra Ravenheart
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6349 - 2013-10-20 08:51:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


With bastion they dont need RR.


You're wrong.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6350 - 2013-10-20 08:55:12 UTC
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


With bastion they dont need RR.


You're wrong.


You can tank entire pvp gangs solo in these things.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6351 - 2013-10-20 08:57:37 UTC
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


With bastion they dont need RR.


You're wrong.


What an eloquent and informative rebuttal.
Nefra Ravenheart
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6352 - 2013-10-20 09:01:23 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


With bastion they dont need RR.


You're wrong.


What an eloquent and informative rebuttal.


Didn't think it was worth the time it given that this thread is full of examples of why the bastion module is rubbish for PVE.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6353 - 2013-10-20 09:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
baltec1 wrote:
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


With bastion they dont need RR.


You're wrong.


You can tank entire pvp gangs solo in these things.


Every time i would see a vargur in bastion i would get a scanner, a ceptor and some arties. You just have to coordinate alpha and it dies. A double LASB on TQ was already hard to beat for a gang. but alpha always did the job. Now with this fat cow marauders you just need to identify the fitting and it is dead.

OFC a gang of those marauders is a hard nut to crack, but a gang of them would be much more dangerous if they would move and rr each other. Awesome resists, buffer against alpha and quite good damage.

A solo marauder might not be beaten by a small pvp group, but it will kill nothing either. You just have to fly away, turn your face to him and scream: Ha ha. So boring.

Then you will come with the argument, the marauder will come with the new e-war frigates. Yeah, but then they will ignore the marauder and kill the other stuff first.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6354 - 2013-10-20 09:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Brib Vogt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


With bastion they dont need RR.


You're wrong.


You can tank entire pvp gangs solo in these things.


Every time i would see a vargure in bastion i would get a scanner, a ceptor and some arties. You just have to coordinate alpha and it dies. A double LASB on TQ was already hard to beat for a gang. but alpha always did the job. Now with this fat cow marauders you just need to identify the fitting and it is dead.

OFC a gang of those marauders is a hard nut to crack, but a gang of them would be much more dangerous if they would move and rr each other. Awesome resists, buffer against alpha and quite good damage.


And where are you going to find these alpha ships in the middle of cfc space?

Do you honestly think I will just sit there and not scan you down in return? Every ship can be countered in the way you just described but in reality your argument just doesn't hold water. Most gangs are small and use cruiser and below ships. The new marauders can tank almost all of these gangs and if they dont run can also kill them. They do not need RR support. Hell even if the could get RR support how will it fare any better if they do bring in enough to alpha you?
Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#6355 - 2013-10-20 09:56:01 UTC
I'm sorry to say, that i think, that maybe 0,1% of all players can use a Marauder in PVP (includes ISK/SP and PVP skill). I never will, i even don't go on a frig/cruiser roam, when my clone jump isn't ready, because my pod costs a lot more then the ship. And my pod is a lot cheaper then a Marauder. If anyone writes again money is no factor, so he is right for maybe less than 2% players of the complete server, for the rest of us it matters.


If you will tell people, 08/15 carebares will go to lowsec doing lvl 5, with this ships, i don't believe it. I think some lowsec corps will do it, as they do it right now and maybe a few others. My opinion is: Lvl 5 should be teamplay, equally incursions and WH.

What CCP want to do is something that's an "impossiple mission" on this ship class, it will burt hurt the PVE players (thats the customers of this ship) and will be calmingly to the PVP players. But it's a string thats follow to the result, that noone is pleased really. One side say: It's too strong! We can't break your tank! The other side says: What the hell? I don't need tank, i need dps! (Irony detected)

Why inventing this class new? Ah i forgot, they invested time doing a animation and invested a lot of money in an idea, that no real PVE player wants(exceptions are the rule). It's an effort to make this shipclass more viable in PVP, i ask for which persons? The normal eve player can't afford it. Maybe a cool animation for the next AT?

I tested all 4 Marauders. My thoughts were: Yay cool, meh, wtf?, sucks. If you want you can riddle which words fits to the correct marauder. For one weapon system it's absolutly great. For an other it's ok. Two systems would be the losers in this, they want to reinvent the wheel. Don't we have enough response and ideas to handle with it?

Why you try to make all equal and boring? Don't make it to smooth. Two work very good with the Bastion, the other two not, maybe give them other boni or let them work as shortrange platform.

please: give the forum a ignore char button
Kate stark
#6356 - 2013-10-20 10:37:42 UTC
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
please: give the forum a ignore char button




it has one.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6357 - 2013-10-20 11:07:04 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
please: give the forum a ignore char button




it has one.


This could be used as an example of what I have been saying about pve players lack of knolage...
Hanna Cyrus
Spessart Rebellen
#6358 - 2013-10-20 11:10:32 UTC
This is not my only char, i'm doing pvp in small scale and a enjoy it. You sir have no better arguments?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6359 - 2013-10-20 11:21:33 UTC
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
This is not my only char, i'm doing pvp in small scale and a enjoy it. You sir have no better arguments?


If you arnt willing to either post on said alt or post its name then I wouldn't bother bringing it up as people will just dismiss it as a lie.

In the end, if these ships sucked balls I would say so. They don't, infact, they are very good in a few areas.
Kate stark
#6360 - 2013-10-20 11:30:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They don't, infact, they are very good in a few areas.


unfortunately, none of them in an area that doesn't just make them better at what they're already relegated to. or, so it seems.

i know that looking at them, and the ccp comments on them, i have no reason to pick one for incursions over a pirate hull even after the pirate rebalance.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.