These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#6281 - 2013-10-19 15:21:45 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
A Nightmare will stomp all over any marauder in missions; and it shares the advantage of using half the ammo.

I doubt that, or I just don't run same missions you do. Optimal bonus really helps, including helping with hitting out to ranges where Nightmare's tracking bonus is less useful. You may be right though, so you could join the discussion here and point out stuff that is wrong with reasoning.
Tbh lasers isn't the weapon system that makes you count your shots as much as ACs or CMLs.

As of right now the nightmare and paladin are almost identical on TQ. The only differences are that the nightmare has better tracking than the paladin and does a little bit more DPS but it's nothing that you would really notice unless you ran a few hundred missions and had marauders 5.

After Rubicon a Tach fit NM will still have better tracking than a tach fit paladin (with tracking scripts on both ships) while the paladin will have about 100 more gun DPS and better range (~10km difference in optimals using INMF). If you use range scripts the NM still has better tracking and there's a difference of about 20km in optimals but with each ship having optimal ranges of 40+km there really isn't a range issue on either ship. So it will really just depend on the type of PVE you are running as to which is best to use.

For pulse fits the differences are more apparent. Using scorch, the NM will have much better tracking with 60km optimal while the paladin will have 90km optimal (using range scripts) with DPS differences of about 50 DPS. Using tracking scripts the NM still has better tracking but reduces to 50km optimal while paladin is at 71km.

This is of course without using bastion since all it does is extend range and neither the NM or paladin have range issues. And it also doesn't take into account drone DPS since in my experience when you dish out 1000+ DPS you rarely need to use drones. Both ships will run PVE content just fine before and after rubicon it is just a matter of choosing which one is best based on the skills you have.
Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
#6282 - 2013-10-19 15:40:36 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Here's an idea: Give each Marauder two (2) additional launchers -or- two (2) additional turrets (not both), just to give Marauders a bit of anti-frigate/cruiser capability. Since they'd be light or medium weapons, they won't receive any of the hull bonuses, with any DPS increase being a bare minimum. As far as that goes, if we're talking light weapons here - why not give them four (4) additional launchers or turrets.

If need be, increase the grid and CPU cost of Bastion to prevent abuse (I haven't played around with the Marauder fits, so maybe it's extremely tight for grid and CPU already; I don't think you could run any additional large turrets or launchers even with an ancillary rig - possibly a pair of mediums or a quad stack of lights, but that's probably it). In theory I guess you could possibly get away with a fifth large launcher or turret, but I imagine you'd sacrifice your rigs, a low slot and a lot of tank for the extra DPS. That's not necessarily a bad trade-off, and it does make Marauder configurations a bit more of a wildcard (you'd probably have to drop the MJD to pull it off).

It would make these a bit more interesting for PvP (and with the ability to fend off small ships, I can actually see Marauders venturing out of high-sec). Marauders are supposed to be the end-all/be-all of battleships: Tank, glass cannon or anti-ship - a few interesting possibilities with unique roles. Thoughts?


Although those are good ideas, I feel like that would break the game. Paladins are the most powerful (gun only) long range DPS (I can pull 1100 with Spec 4 Tachyons and INMF). However, the fifth turret would be helpful especially for the Kronos and the Vargur (again, I know little about missiles, so no idea about the Golem).

Something that needs clarification though, and this goes for CCP as well.

Quote:
A Marauder is the one that attacks or kills in search of booty or loot or a reward.


Marauder battleships should fulfill that roll, or be renamed. A powerful ship that is able to loot. As it is now, it kinda does, with the tractor and salvagers, but it is far from the best, since the introduction of the Noctis. As for the attack bit, pirate hulls tend to overpower the current marauders. To make it simpler. Our marauders are worse marauding than a high-damage battleship + Noctis. Marauders should excel at marauding, that means going in, killing stuff quickly and efficiently and looting, all in one go.

My point is that marauders should excel at the attack for loot bit, after all, that's what they do. Should attack be increased on the Vargur? Yeah, it lacks lots of it, 880 dps with 1400s seems poor. But we can't ask for the end-all be-all battleship. It's specialization role is being a Marauder, killing and looting, not a pure combat ship,

Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
Saul Alastar
We Make Mistake
#6283 - 2013-10-19 16:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
EVE Online The Rubicon changes to Maunders is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in EVE. Take the paladin for example. You are taking a perfectly good CQC-Mid Range BS and turing it into a glorified long range sentry turret. CCP wtf are you thinking? This makes the Paladin WORSE for PvE.

Now I feel like I just WASTED all those months of training just so I can fly the damn thing in incursion and now its only good for assualts and higher. Thanks CCP, I'd like that wasted time back.

Post cleaned up a little, please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you. -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#6284 - 2013-10-19 16:10:55 UTC
Arcosian wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Nefra Ravenheart wrote:
A Nightmare will stomp all over any marauder in missions; and it shares the advantage of using half the ammo.

I doubt that, or I just don't run same missions you do. Optimal bonus really helps, including helping with hitting out to ranges where Nightmare's tracking bonus is less useful. You may be right though, so you could join the discussion here and point out stuff that is wrong with reasoning.
Tbh lasers isn't the weapon system that makes you count your shots as much as ACs or CMLs.

As of right now the nightmare and paladin are almost identical on TQ. The only differences are that the nightmare has better tracking than the paladin and does a little bit more DPS but it's nothing that you would really notice unless you ran a few hundred missions and had marauders 5.

After Rubicon a Tach fit NM will still have better tracking than a tach fit paladin (with tracking scripts on both ships) while the paladin will have about 100 more gun DPS and better range (~10km difference in optimals using INMF). If you use range scripts the NM still has better tracking and there's a difference of about 20km in optimals but with each ship having optimal ranges of 40+km there really isn't a range issue on either ship. So it will really just depend on the type of PVE you are running as to which is best to use.

For pulse fits the differences are more apparent. Using scorch, the NM will have much better tracking with 60km optimal while the paladin will have 90km optimal (using range scripts) with DPS differences of about 50 DPS. Using tracking scripts the NM still has better tracking but reduces to 50km optimal while paladin is at 71km.

This is of course without using bastion since all it does is extend range and neither the NM or paladin have range issues. And it also doesn't take into account drone DPS since in my experience when you dish out 1000+ DPS you rarely need to use drones. Both ships will run PVE content just fine before and after rubicon it is just a matter of choosing which one is best based on the skills you have.


My group flies Paladin's doing bare minimum of 1300 DPS, maxed out at 1560 DPS with implants, using Conflag, or MF, most of the time when the rats get close and we need tracking. We absolutely need webs to be successful. MjDing away to shoot stuff at long range is a nerf in our effective DPS.

There is no other way to describe it. The math does not lie. Testing on Sisi did not lie.
The changes to the Paladin are a total disaster, and we are already making plans to use other ships, which are inferior to the current Paladin.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#6285 - 2013-10-19 16:33:06 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

My group flies Paladin's doing bare minimum of 1300 DPS, maxed out at 1560 DPS with implants, using Conflag, or MF, most of the time when the rats get close and we need tracking. We absolutely need webs to be successful. MjDing away to shoot stuff at long range is a nerf in our effective DPS.

There is no other way to describe it. The math does not lie. Testing on Sisi did not lie.
The changes to the Paladin are a total disaster, and we are already making plans to use other ships, which are inferior to the current Paladin.


I understand that your niche way of using the ships is getting a direct nerf due to dps loss...

but honestly PVE is more then just incursions... maraduers are not designed to be exclusive to Incursions so why would you assume CCP would design the ship to be best at them?

The ship is supposed to be best all round PVE ship that means ratting doing 10/10 plexes and so on with also includes but not exclusive incursions.

personally i am stooked cuss i am going to use my rail kronos as my new 10/10 complex ship.

Furthermore From what i Understand Incusions give stupid amounts of ISK... a little reduction in efficiancy and thus isk/hour is not a bad thing IMO.

Curious though which ship are you guys chaging to? vindicators?

why not go half vindicators and half palis? that way you can still have 90% webbs?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6286 - 2013-10-19 16:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Serge SC wrote:
Although those are good ideas, I feel like that would break the game. Paladins are the most powerful (gun only) long range DPS (I can pull 1100 with Spec 4 Tachyons and INMF). However, the fifth turret would be helpful especially for the Kronos and the Vargur (again, I know little about missiles, so no idea about the Golem).

Possibly. But as it now stands these ships fail in their designation as 'Marauders', since they rely on external fleet support. Combined with the changes to warp speed, Marauders are sitting ducks outside of high-sec.
.....

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
There is no other way to describe it. The math does not lie. Testing on Sisi did not lie.
The changes to the Paladin are a total disaster, and we are already making plans to use other ships, which are inferior to the current Paladin.

I've come around to see your reasoning.

Can we just re-implement the +7.5% stasis web/level and add it to the Marauder roll bonus? (lose the tractor range bonus if need be) It's a fair compromise because you'll need Marauders-V to receive maximum benefit, and then Marauders can also work in short-range fits.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
#6287 - 2013-10-19 17:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jacob Bok'Kila
Serge SC wrote:


Something that needs clarification though, and this goes for CCP as well.

Quote:
A Marauder is the one that attacks or kills in search of booty or loot or a reward.


Marauder battleships should fulfill that roll, or be renamed. A powerful ship that is able to loot. As it is now, it kinda does, with the tractor and salvagers, but it is far from the best, since the introduction of the Noctis. As for the attack bit, pirate hulls tend to overpower the current marauders. To make it simpler. Our marauders are worse marauding than a high-damage battleship + Noctis. Marauders should excel at marauding, that means going in, killing stuff quickly and efficiently and looting, all in one go.

My point is that marauders should excel at the attack for loot bit, after all, that's what they do. Should attack be increased on the Vargur? Yeah, it lacks lots of it, 880 dps with 1400s seems poor. But we can't ask for the end-all be-all battleship. It's specialization role is being a Marauder, killing and looting, not a pure combat ship,


They can salvage, they can fit two tractor beams and a salvager plus the bastion due to the added extra high slot. Or fit three tractor beams and use salvage drones. Pirate+noctis either requires to go back to the (mission) site or it requires you to have and maintain an another character to maximize efficiency.

Having these exact advanages on one ship, one character... much don't you think?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6288 - 2013-10-19 17:28:49 UTC
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
They can salvage, they can fit two tractor beams and a salvager plus the bastion due to the added extra high slot. Or fit three tractor beams and use salvage drones. Pirate+noctis eigher requires to go back to the (mission) site or it requires you to have and maintain an another character to maximize efficiency.

Having these exact advanages on one ship, one character... much don't you think?

The most powerful battleship in the game... relegated to salvage duty. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6289 - 2013-10-19 17:29:08 UTC
Jacob Bok'Kila wrote:
Serge SC wrote:


Something that needs clarification though, and this goes for CCP as well.

Quote:
A Marauder is the one that attacks or kills in search of booty or loot or a reward.


Marauder battleships should fulfill that roll, or be renamed. A powerful ship that is able to loot. As it is now, it kinda does, with the tractor and salvagers, but it is far from the best, since the introduction of the Noctis. As for the attack bit, pirate hulls tend to overpower the current marauders. To make it simpler. Our marauders are worse marauding than a high-damage battleship + Noctis. Marauders should excel at marauding, that means going in, killing stuff quickly and efficiently and looting, all in one go.

My point is that marauders should excel at the attack for loot bit, after all, that's what they do. Should attack be increased on the Vargur? Yeah, it lacks lots of it, 880 dps with 1400s seems poor. But we can't ask for the end-all be-all battleship. It's specialization role is being a Marauder, killing and looting, not a pure combat ship,


They can salvage, they can fit two tractor beams and a salvager plus the bastion due to the added extra high slot. Or fit three tractor beams and use salvage drones. Pirate+noctis eigher requires to go back to the (mission) site or it requires you to have and maintain an another character to maximize efficiency.

Having these exact advanages on one ship, one character... much don't you think?


Actually, the easy thing to do is bookmark each room in a mission.
Fly back, turn in the mission, then come out an warp to the wrecks without having to fly through warp gates and the mission site.

Also, since Marauders can clear missions pretty fast, you can clear and bookmark 3 or 4 missions, then come back and salvage them all with the noctis... It's the way I do it... Much faster than a 40 km tractor and unbonused salvager/s
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6290 - 2013-10-19 17:41:53 UTC
For incursions I think the Marauders allow some nice and new tactics. Spreading of the ships will be needed as well as NOSses as a sort of alternative energy transfer that works in bastion.

Also, maybe, just maybe, for an incursion Paladin, 2 megapulse + 2 tachyons might be optimal If you spread your fleet around. Every ship will be able to snipe, will be able to hit ships orbiting someone else and not be totally useless if they orbit you. Some dps/distance graphs might need to be drawn but there might be something in it.


For the rest, I'ld like to say these iterations are shaping up nicely. The only changes I'ld like to see are:

  • swap Paladin cap bonus with its dps bonus: all other marauders have their dps bonus on the battleship skill

  • increase tractor beam range to beyond 50k: this way, any can will always be in reach when mjd-ing around.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6291 - 2013-10-19 17:52:03 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

The most powerful battleship in the game... relegated to salvage duty. Lol

'Powerful' is an odd description.

You could add 5 sentry drones to both the kronos and vargur and they still would not reach the dps potential of their pirate alternatives.

IMO I think sentry drones would be a nice addition. Pirates would still have their place. The golem / rattlesnake relationship would be a little cooler IMO: both are drones + missiles but the golem does better with missiles and application while the rattlesnake has better drone dmg and max dps potential.

Sentry drones work well with bastion mode.

PvE marauders would have more decisions about fits:
* Long range boats might drop tractors for additional links bc of tractor range
* short range boats might take links, rr, tractor, salvagers, or a mix
* might hand off tractor duty to the looting structure to salvage or enhance drones.
* extra slots saved by bastion could support drones when reaching stacking limits on TCs or Wep upgrades.
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#6292 - 2013-10-19 18:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukinosuke
Elindreal wrote:
Octoven wrote:


Actually the new marauders are now exclusively for PVP so Id rather not deal with it...just scrap the ship and advise no one to buy one.


You should officer fit your T1 battleship hull for PVE then. It will be even more viable.
Now you can save isk on that pesky hull!


have you ever got or flown or undock even (or even dare to train for) t2 battleships? to have some pvp fun??? or just fly around with noobships and shuttles? (SiSi does not count)

Idea if you want "bastion"ed pvp oriented t2 battleship, there are black ops (twin sisters of marauders), waiting for " being rebalanced" by CCP masterminds.. why dont you ask for it instead..Shocked

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6293 - 2013-10-19 18:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
chaosgrimm wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

The most powerful battleship in the game... relegated to salvage duty. Lol

'Powerful' is an odd description.

You could add 5 sentry drones to both the kronos and vargur and they still would not reach the dps potential of their pirate alternatives.

IMO I think sentry drones would be a nice addition. Pirates would still have their place. The golem / rattlesnake relationship would be a little cooler IMO: both are drones + missiles but the golem does better with missiles and application while the rattlesnake has better drone dmg and max dps potential.

Sentry drones work well with bastion mode.

PvE marauders would have more decisions about fits:
* Long range boats might drop tractors for additional links bc of tractor range
* short range boats might take links, rr, tractor, salvagers, or a mix
* might hand off tractor duty to the looting structure to salvage or enhance drones.
* extra slots saved by bastion could support drones when reaching stacking limits on TCs or Wep upgrades.


You could get too much firepower out of them. CCP do not want them completely out classing the t1 counterparts in damage.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#6294 - 2013-10-19 18:48:30 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
For incursions I think the Marauders allow some nice and new tactics. Spreading of the ships will be needed as well as NOSses as a sort of alternative energy transfer that works in bastion.

Also, maybe, just maybe, for an incursion Paladin, 2 megapulse + 2 tachyons might be optimal If you spread your fleet around. Every ship will be able to snipe, will be able to hit ships orbiting someone else and not be totally useless if they orbit you. Some dps/distance graphs might need to be drawn but there might be something in it.


For the rest, I'ld like to say these iterations are shaping up nicely. The only changes I'ld like to see are:

  • swap Paladin cap bonus with its dps bonus: all other marauders have their dps bonus on the battleship skill

  • increase tractor beam range to beyond 50k: this way, any can will always be in reach when mjd-ing around.


Wow, split gun types...
Ships jumping in multiple directions.

I would love to be on comms when you suggest that to your FC.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#6295 - 2013-10-19 18:53:19 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

My group flies Paladin's doing bare minimum of 1300 DPS, maxed out at 1560 DPS with implants, using Conflag, or MF, most of the time when the rats get close and we need tracking. We absolutely need webs to be successful. MjDing away to shoot stuff at long range is a nerf in our effective DPS.

There is no other way to describe it. The math does not lie. Testing on Sisi did not lie.
The changes to the Paladin are a total disaster, and we are already making plans to use other ships, which are inferior to the current Paladin.


I understand that your niche way of using the ships is getting a direct nerf due to dps loss...

but honestly PVE is more then just incursions... maraduers are not designed to be exclusive to Incursions so why would you assume CCP would design the ship to be best at them?

The ship is supposed to be best all round PVE ship that means ratting doing 10/10 plexes and so on with also includes but not exclusive incursions.

personally i am stooked cuss i am going to use my rail kronos as my new 10/10 complex ship.

Furthermore From what i Understand Incusions give stupid amounts of ISK... a little reduction in efficiancy and thus isk/hour is not a bad thing IMO.

Curious though which ship are you guys chaging to? vindicators?

why not go half vindicators and half palis? that way you can still have 90% webbs?


We are looking at nightmares first, Vindi's second.
Both are poor seconds.
I have no idea how many Vindi fleets we blew away as they operate in falloff, while our Paladin's were operating in optimal.
Nightmares don't have the web though, so effective damage is hugely nerfed, and tank gets iffy in a non-blue bar, even with boosters. (Shield Nightmares are used in different doctrine, and are lethal)
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6296 - 2013-10-19 19:13:40 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


Actually, the easy thing to do is bookmark each room in a mission.
Fly back, turn in the mission, then come out an warp to the wrecks without having to fly through warp gates and the mission site.

Also, since Marauders can clear missions pretty fast, you can clear and bookmark 3 or 4 missions, then come back and salvage them all with the noctis... It's the way I do it... Much faster than a 40 km tractor and unbonused salvager/s


The issue is that T1 salvage has a rather low value. It's debatable whether it's worth it at all to come back with a Noctis and salvage stuff, as opposed to just running another mission in that time. The Marauders can salvage wrecks WHILE they're running the mission. It costs you no DPS or missioning time to fit some tractors and salvagers and use them while you're pew pewing everything else. You won't get all the wrecks, but you will get some extra bonus loot that no other ship would get. IMHO, this bonus loot more than makes up for the small DPS difference between the Marauders and a pirate BS for level fours.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6297 - 2013-10-19 19:19:30 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

We are looking at nightmares first, Vindi's second.
Both are poor seconds.
I have no idea how many Vindi fleets we blew away as they operate in falloff, while our Paladin's were operating in optimal.
Nightmares don't have the web though, so effective damage is hugely nerfed, and tank gets iffy in a non-blue bar, even with boosters. (Shield Nightmares are used in different doctrine, and are lethal)


What I don't understand is why remote reps are considered so mandatory. A pimped out Paladin can local tank 7500 DPS easily, and it has more than enough EHP to not get blapped. Were you doing a spidertank fleet of nothing but Paladins? Because if you had any logi before in your Incursions, just drop them and bring in some Vindicators or Bhaalgorns for webbing duty. The Paladins will be able to RR these ships if needed and you get your webs.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6298 - 2013-10-19 19:23:18 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
IMHO, this bonus loot more than makes up for the small DPS difference between the Marauders and a pirate BS for level fours.

Right...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#6299 - 2013-10-19 19:41:37 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

We are looking at nightmares first, Vindi's second.
Both are poor seconds.
I have no idea how many Vindi fleets we blew away as they operate in falloff, while our Paladin's were operating in optimal.
Nightmares don't have the web though, so effective damage is hugely nerfed, and tank gets iffy in a non-blue bar, even with boosters. (Shield Nightmares are used in different doctrine, and are lethal)


What I don't understand is why remote reps are considered so mandatory. A pimped out Paladin can local tank 7500 DPS easily, and it has more than enough EHP to not get blapped. Were you doing a spidertank fleet of nothing but Paladins? Because if you had any logi before in your Incursions, just drop them and bring in some Vindicators or Bhaalgorns for webbing duty. The Paladins will be able to RR these ships if needed and you get your webs.


Because a Paladin in Bastion mode is garbage.
First off, to build a fit that is even close to cap friendly (I did not say cap stable), you have to sacrifice even MORE DPS, because so many more slots have to be sacrificed to tanking and cap usage.

Check one of my previous posts where I described the tank I had.
It was NOT cap stable, and the ship died because the tank could not keep up, nor were the NOS's not working well enough when there was not any NPC BS's on grid, even if the tank would have held.

And that fit had to sacrifice 2 rig slots (T2 aux nano pumps), a mid slot (cap recharger), plus at least one more low slot. (We run 4-5 slots for DPS and tracking mods now, I only had 3 Heat sinks on the Singularity fit that died). And yes, I had 2 c-type ENAM's on the Sisi fit, so it was not strictly T2.

So the Bastion mode is absolutely terrible. And if you suggest using the MjD to gain distance, show me a weapon system that does more damage than a short range weapon system, against a target webbed to a near-standstill.

Plus we have the timer issues to deal with if the Bastion module is used, especially when you want to get 10 people all coming out at the precise same moment, plus the times when you have to re-acquire locks, plus having the bastion timer finish before you finish the site.

Sorry, no one, and I mean no one, will win contests in incursions using the Bastion module.

And as for Bhaalgorns, they have inferior damage, and webbing something 40 or 45 km out is just dumb.
Vindi's have great on paper DPS, but get clobbered when used in their falloff.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6300 - 2013-10-19 19:54:21 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sorry, no one, and I mean no one, will win contests in incursions using the Bastion module.

So the new Marauders will totally suck on incursions, they suck "lite" on L4s and they completely blow for PvP. Did I miss anything?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.