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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#6101 - 2013-10-17 12:18:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

what you are missing though is that torps have higher base damage and that means because tps increase sig size by % they are far more eficient for torps than they are for guns.


Im not missing it, its just that this doesnt change anything. U can orbit torpedo ship without tank 1 meter beyond his optimal and he wont harm u even with 10000% damage bonus. Same thing if u are fast - u can outrun torpedoes, many ways of dealing with them.

Npcs doesnt do such things thats why Golem is mainly a hisec pve ship and things like mjd or bastion module which preventing you from moving to other gate are preety much useless here. As of 0.0 pve, roamers will love u for warping your marauder to anom and making yourself stationary.

lol do I need to draw you a picture or are you actually unfamiliar with one of the most basic of mathimatical concepts?

let me explain it nice and slowly

1 warp into mission room
2 bastion up and shoot all the ships agressinf you
3 if gate is 40-70 km away mjd away to a point THAT IS A 100KM AWAY FROM THE GATE AND THE STARTING POINT -see pythagoras
4 bastion up and kill some more rats
5 once out of bastion mjd to gate.

a 60km trip going at 300m/s with an AB will take you LONGER than with mjd.

youd have to at around 450m/s and suffer pretty bad transversal to beat a mjd

Learn
2
Math

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#6102 - 2013-10-17 12:26:59 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/


But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz.


I hope that is a troll, otherwise one of the most stupid things ever typed in the history of the internet.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#6103 - 2013-10-17 12:32:43 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/


But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz.


I hope that is a troll, otherwise one of the most stupid things ever typed in the history of the internet.


Looking back over 300+ pages and numerous other threads on this topic, I can safely say the irony is staggering.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Mokusui
Lazy Brothers Inc
#6104 - 2013-10-17 12:33:47 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:


CCP Ytterbium and team, thank you for listening to feedback, stepping back to the first iteration, and for rolling back the hull and drone bay nerfs. While I know that some may be very vocal in their distaste for these changes, I am personally excited about the marauder class of ships in their current state.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#6105 - 2013-10-17 12:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
@ ccp ytterbium

"Mass has been reduced to 92,245,000 kg on the Paladin, 94,335,000 kg on the Golem, 93,480,000 kg on the Kronos and 96,520,000 kg on the Vargur."

Are Vargur stats typo ?

Latest changes are good step to make this ships not completely bad w/o bastion mod.speaking from vargur/incursion scenario it is now viable 1400mm(best) platform that have 4 utility high for ultimate support rr role.( vg no bastion)

For HQ sites I think that raw dps and plethora of drones will win out in favor to other ships BUT at least it will not be dead on arrival with nerfed hit points and bastion gimmick.

I truly hope that pirate balancing will take in account these changes so that all of these ships have role in team gameplay and so it doesn't in the end we have same situation of pirate ships that are simply batter for most things while requiring less training time.

having Vindicator / NM / Machariel being most viable ships out of hundreds in this game for many things was never more true and sadder.

Also would be cool if animation could be activated w/o bastion fitted.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6106 - 2013-10-17 12:47:08 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/


But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz.


I hope that is a troll, otherwise one of the most stupid things ever typed in the history of the internet.


I've run hundreds of vanguard sites with my 7 accounts, two logi toons, two leadership toons (which the command ships changes have let me combine into 1), two dps toons and one utility toon that could be logi, fast transport for ore OR dps depending on the site.

The new command ship / mindlinks and new marauders will let me field MORE dps with the same logi. Is that trolling? Over 100 billion isk to date... is that stupid?
Shivanthar
#6107 - 2013-10-17 12:47:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
baltec1 wrote:
Jade Knight07 wrote:


You want to add a new mode, which for me is going to be near to totally useless, do it without breaking the Kronos. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE KRONOS!!! Please leave the normal mode alone.




Use the Vindicator. Same webs, more damage, more armour hp, more fitting room, faster, can deploy a full set of sentries/heavies, much better sensor strength. It outclasses the old kronos in every way for what you are using it for.

Or you can use the new kronos, fit a two or three slot tank, use the extra room for more tracking or damage mods, have your blasters reach out to NPC orbit range and just use your drones to take out the frigates you don't squash as they charge at you.


No, no and a big NO.
I understand people helping each other to make them see some other point of view, but there is a big mistake going on here.
Not to be offensive against baltec1, but responses like this is too harsh for someone who has been happy so far with his ship. Same applies for me. This is the reason I'm replying.

Anybody can see he trained for marauders for "missioning" right?
What does he get right now?
- A kronos that he use for missioning on close range, because he likes it that way.
- After he finishes his mission, without going back-forward, he uses his beams to get wrecks nearby, then salvages them.

I assume he has trained at least Marauders 4 by now, trained AW# 5 just to get there.

- Going for Vindicator will make him train another month to get what he got right now,
- Going for Vindi will make his spendings increase during missioning. (Small degree but it is there compared to a marauder)
- He has to train for noctis in order to salvage.
- He has to go back-forward to get salvaging ship, which he tried to ignore while training for Marauders.
- Recommending him the "modified Kronos" won't help him, since he has been replying here to just tell that he didn't like the new way "he has to play" in order to be effective.

I simply didn't like it, he simply didn't like it.
Some people simply didn't like the new role. And some people simply don't get this straight. We did NOT like it.

If I wanted to snipe ships from far away, I would use drone ship, with sentry drones, and there is very little difference on the table between a dominix and a new whatsoever Marauder... It can be seen as simple as giving Dominix this proposed MJD bonus. Nothing else.

CCP reverted hull nerf in order to maintain already-happy-close-range-ppl like us, but it is still not the same as before. All I will get is the same barn with lower speed. Nothing more.
The penalty he will get in this case is worse than what Vargur gets, he will loose his web bonus, which is his enjoyment.

Some people don't get this...

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#6108 - 2013-10-17 12:53:13 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/


But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz.


I hope that is a troll, otherwise one of the most stupid things ever typed in the history of the internet.


I've run hundreds of vanguard sites with my 7 accounts, two logi toons, two leadership toons (which the command ships changes have let me combine into 1), two dps toons and one utility toon that could be logi, fast transport for ore OR dps depending on the site.

The new command ship / mindlinks and new marauders will let me field MORE dps with the same logi. Is that trolling? Over 100 billion isk to date... is that stupid?


Congratulations you earned whooping 8/9/10 bill per char easy archived on weekly basis of any incursion player.

You may try team work too it is fun and less of zombie grind.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6109 - 2013-10-17 12:57:04 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/


But. I LIKE the capacitor bonus. Makes solo tanking vanguard sites ezpz.


I hope that is a troll, otherwise one of the most stupid things ever typed in the history of the internet.


I've run hundreds of vanguard sites with my 7 accounts, two logi toons, two leadership toons (which the command ships changes have let me combine into 1), two dps toons and one utility toon that could be logi, fast transport for ore OR dps depending on the site.

The new command ship / mindlinks and new marauders will let me field MORE dps with the same logi. Is that trolling? Over 100 billion isk to date... is that stupid?


Congratulations you earned whooping 8/9/10 bill per char easy archived on weekly basis of any incursion player.

You may try team work too it is fun and less of zombie grind.


Lol. Have you SEEN the wankery that is incursion politics? No thanks. At least I don't have to worry about a gank squad sneaking in a logi and flagging the fleet.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6110 - 2013-10-17 13:02:07 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:

Lol. Have you SEEN the wankery that is incursion politics? No thanks. At least I don't have to worry about a gank squad sneaking in a logi and flagging the fleet.


Only reason that farce was even allowed to happen was high sec game mechanics refuse to allow both sides to simply shoot each other in the face when they act up, lack of deterrent causes all kinds of incompetence to flourish.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6111 - 2013-10-17 13:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
I need someone to try something....

Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?

If so, this is game changing...
This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.

Edit...
I'm asking because no one as actually tested this.
We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap.
Daishan Auergni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6112 - 2013-10-17 13:28:32 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I need someone to try something....

Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?

If so, this is game changing...
This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.

Edit...
I'm asking because no one as actually tested this.
We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap.


Cap transfers don't work. Nosferatus do.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#6113 - 2013-10-17 13:29:17 UTC
its in the bastion module discription. you can not get cap.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6114 - 2013-10-17 13:29:35 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I need someone to try something....

Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?

If so, this is game changing...
This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.

Edit...
I'm asking because no one as actually tested this.
We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap.


Cap transfers don't work. Nosferatus do.


have you tried it?
Everyone is assuming it won't work, but have you tried it?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#6115 - 2013-10-17 13:30:00 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I need someone to try something....

Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?

If so, this is game changing...
This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.

Edit...
I'm asking because no one as actually tested this.
We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap.


No, you cannot cap transfer.
Have you not been on Sisi testing this disaster?
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#6116 - 2013-10-17 13:32:51 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:

The new command ship / mindlinks and new marauders will let me field MORE dps with the same logi. Is that trolling? Over 100 billion isk to date... is that stupid?


Wasting your valuable online time grinding ISK that you don't need? Er, yes?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#6117 - 2013-10-17 13:41:46 UTC
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I need someone to try something....

Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?

If so, this is game changing...
This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.

Edit...
I'm asking because no one as actually tested this.
We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap.


Cap transfers don't work. Nosferatus do.


Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin.
I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's.
With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.

Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.

But I was going to be in that site much longer than that, since my small drones were getting chewed up because the AI was recognizing that the guns were doing **** damage to Tama's, compared to the drones, and attacked my drones. And why were the guns doing such **** damage? Because the unbonused webs could not slow them down enough.

Yeah, Yitterbum's "internal testing" yielded a far different meaning of the word "effective" than my actual tests on Sisi.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#6118 - 2013-10-17 13:56:56 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Daishan Auergni wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I need someone to try something....

Can you cap transfer to a bastioned marauder?

If so, this is game changing...
This means they can bastion up with AAR/ASB and cap transfer with logistics while keeping themselves up and serving as an anchor point.

Edit...
I'm asking because no one as actually tested this.
We know we can't get logistics, but no one has tested cap.


Cap transfers don't work. Nosferatus do.


Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin.
I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's.
With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.

Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.

But I was going to be in that site much longer than that, since my small drones were getting chewed up because the AI was recognizing that the guns were doing **** damage to Tama's, compared to the drones, and attacked my drones. And why were the guns doing such **** damage? Because the unbonused webs could not slow them down enough.

Yeah, Yitterbum's "internal testing" yielded a far different meaning of the word "effective" than my actual tests on Sisi.


so let me get this straight; you tanked an nco, alone for 7min?

wow these new bastion marauders suck...

lol.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
#6119 - 2013-10-17 14:00:44 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Oh, I tested NOS's on my Paladin.
I ran a fit with 2 c-type eanm's, a DCII, a single T2 LAR, with 2 T2 Aux Nano rigs, and 2 Large NOS's, and a cap recharger in the mid's.
With 2 NOS's was I slowly losing cap, and that was BEFORE the latest nerf to Paladin cap from 8000 to 7500., and the tank would have dried up if the aggro had stayed on me, but it swapped and I was able to turn off the repper for a minute or 2.

Not that it mattered. With that tank, which is far far more slots than needed now, the ship died slowly. The single T2 LAR could not keep up in an NCO. I let the ship blow up, just to see how long it would take, even with the big ass resists and with the awesomeness of the bastion module. It took about 7 minutes, and that was even with the aggro swapping off from me for that 1 minute period.


PvE nos only has an effect used by battleships when:
-You have less than 3800GJ of energy left
-You use the NOS on a battleship sized (sansha) rat.

As current mechanics transfer only when you have less energy left than the target. NPC bs's cap maximums are around 3800GJ.
Vorseger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6120 - 2013-10-17 14:08:18 UTC
Anyone else not want this module and/or mjd to be the new "playstyle" of the marauder class?

Does anyone else feel that CCP is making these changes based on everyone using a bastion module (aka balancing a marauder with a bastion module fitted)?

What is CCP's answer to how the marauder pilots who do not want to use the bastion module are going to benefit from these balance changes?

I understand the increased cpu/power was added (though was a long time coming for these ships) and the increase in shield/armor base values are both buffs.

RANT:
Let use remember that even though they took some of the hull nerfs back, it is not a reason to get too excited. I think this is a ploy by CCP. OVER NERF to make people rage. Then, revert some of the changes back to make the pilots feel better about the bastion module + mjd playstyle they are trying to force down marauders throats.