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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#6061 - 2013-10-17 08:45:02 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Lina Theist wrote:

Perhaps the scorch issue lies not with the modules but with the ammo?


Well nope. Scorch is the only thing that keeps peoples from abandoning amarr. Don't forget that for good DPS and range You pay with cap consumption, tracking and damage type compared to other races.

Someone here suggest to buff falloff ranges in bastion, that's a good idea.


due to the stacking pemalties it wont really male a big difference but perhaps a change from the current 25/25 split chane it to a 20/30 or even 15/35 (a bit much maybe) optimal/falloff bonus.

alternatively dont make it stacking penalised.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#6062 - 2013-10-17 09:08:22 UTC
so when talking about opti falloff changes wheres my buff to missle flight time i want a mjd usable torpedo golem Blink
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6063 - 2013-10-17 09:20:55 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not ment to out damage the pirate shipBlink

this is very true. what a lot of eft warriors dont get, and is evident from the fits they post, is that we fly the marauder because it can loot and salvage AT THE SAME TIME!

doing 10% less damage is acceptable if we make double the isk in the same amount of time.


What an idiotic comment. I skilled to my marauders, golem and vargur, from the beginning. I use a tractor beam only if i need a mission objective. If i want to loot i use a dedicated alt-char with a noctis simultaneously.

I like to fly into enemies and do massive damage. Your proposed fittings with reduced tank and bastion forces me to change the style I like and to negate close range high dps.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6064 - 2013-10-17 09:25:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Anize Oramara wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
my bla

that vargur is overtanked and you completely missed the point of the mjd! drop the 2nd invul, get a gist large b-type and replace mwd with mjd. fit sebo/3rd TC to taste and proceed to kick some faces in.


Are you even reading the other posts. its not a MWD its an afterburner. and it is not overtanked because i am on the move and not in bastion. And gist booster are a reason to gank me again.
Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#6065 - 2013-10-17 09:25:35 UTC
I think dinsdale deserves an ishukone scorp for his devotion to paladin incursions.

Unfortunately I expect he will be biomassing in a fit of rage.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6066 - 2013-10-17 09:31:09 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not ment to out damage the pirate shipBlink

this is very true. what a lot of eft warriors dont get, and is evident from the fits they post, is that we fly the marauder because it can loot and salvage AT THE SAME TIME!

doing 10% less damage is acceptable if we make double the isk in the same amount of time.


What an idiotic comment. I skilled to my marauders, golem and vargur, from the beginning. I use a tractor beam only if i need a mission objective. If i want to loot i use a dedicated alt-char with a noctis simultaneously.

I like to fly into enemies and do massive damage. Your proposed fittings with reduced tank and bastion forces me to change the style I like and to negate close range high dps.


Get a pirate battleship because high damage is their job.
DSpite Culhach
#6067 - 2013-10-17 09:42:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nasro Drags wrote:
Marauders are good PVE ships. They could use a boost to make them better significantly better than their pirate counterparts at PVE.

The proposed changes will make them worse at PvE (lower DPS due to forcing them into ranged combat) to make them half decent at PVP.

Who PVPs with a bill plus ship? Very few people...

Who PVEs with a bill plus ship? Many...

What is the point of the change, i can't seem to get it...

In fact, you had a great idea with the bastion module, but messed up with a decent ship to fit your idea into it. The bastion module should be a new ship. Not a current ship which actually had a role... PVE...


They don't want a pve only combat ship.


Since you seem to know more about the game then me (no sarcasm intended) wouldn't having two types of Bastion (or scripts to go into the Bastion Module) allow for more fine grain control when you undock in it? I'm sure you can punch holes into this concept, but in your opinion, could such an idea be balanced? ie, if you had to make the scripts, do you think you could come up with a workable idea? Or do people here think it's a stupid idea? I think I've seen something mentioned before, but I don't remember anyone scream "Kill him with fire!!!" so I'm not sure.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6068 - 2013-10-17 09:42:37 UTC
Elindreal wrote:
I think dinsdale deserves an ishukone scorp for his devotion to paladin incursions.
Unfortunately I expect he will be biomassing in a fit of rage.

I'm sure he'd appreciate a gesture of one of the crappiest ships in the game. Except they're not handing them out anymore...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6069 - 2013-10-17 09:56:21 UTC
I think with these latest changes CCP have it right;

The Kronos an paladin in buffer pvp fit will be slightly lower on DPS than a Vindi gun DPS wise, ofc the vindi still has larger drones, since you have a MJD theres no point in a MWD so id go with MJD AB combo allowing these ships to keep up some good movement, while in bastion they can field 450k EHP (w/slaves n links) while doing good dps. across a much better range. drop out of bastion and your still good for tank.

Basicly the new marauders will beat any of the Navy faction ships, easily but not quite match the pirate faction ships. but then again when they are reblanced aswell they could end up beating them.
DSpite Culhach
#6070 - 2013-10-17 10:13:10 UTC
Serge SC wrote:
Sure, they're somewhat forcing us into long range guns, but for the paladin, tachyons do a lot of damage, equal to pulses, at 3 times the range, with a bit less than half the tracking. At the range marauders are fighting, tracking shouldn't be an issue.

My testing so far with lvl4s is that I get full room aggro, tank everything until they're close and get rid of those small targets within range with 0 angular velocity. Once full room aggro, jump 100km away, and start shooting one by one. Ungrouped guns and you can take 4 frigates at a time, or even 4 cruisers at a time. They'll come to you, debastion and align down to the gate. Keep firing and cleaning those at opti with low angular. Jump back down to the gate and rebastion. Keep killing remaining targets.

This method works particularly well, and gives me plenty of time (around 5 Bastion cycles between jumps) to clear everything until repositioning. It only failed on me with Worlds Collide first pocket, misscalculating the position (lots of trigonometry lol). I find it a lot more tactical for long range guns, where to position, when to move, what to shoot, etc. Granted, since there are no wrecks in Sisi I can't test doing all this while salvaging with a mere 48km range (would love 60kms tractors at twice the speed though, but one can dream...faction tractor? medium tractors? large tractors?)

EDIT: I'm using the Vargur, not the Paladin, to test sites. I prefer shield tanks myself.
Also, CCP Ytterbium, when are the modifications coming to Sisi?


First off, I don't really "play" EVE at the moment. Someone watching me would say that I dabble in it. Badly.

Anyway, I sorta started missioning in a Rattlesnake to generate the isk to lose in really, really stupid ways, and I can carry all the spare bits in a can to exactly tank any mission, so to me, a Marauder is just "another pretty ship I want to test fly" then promptly park, if It seems less fun to fly, and with Bastion, I think the wow factor might wear off pretty fast, considering insurance if I get a bad timed disconnect, or like last night, a storm runs by and I lose internet for 15 agonizing minutes *shudder*.

I'm sure quite a lot of you are swimming in ISK, but when you're not, losing one of these babies is 2-3 PLEX, so won't only the most hardcore mission runners bother with them long term? Seems a bit of stretch that players just starting to decide *right now* about Marauders would actually consider doing so, and not just getting a RNI, or Nightmare etc.

Older players tend to know all the tricks and dangers, and can fly a T1 Indy in a damn L4 and survive, while the newbies think that red ships are space fire trucks cynoing in friendly ships to rep them. Well, the first time anyway. After a close call I parked my CNI for a LONG time and went back to a Raven, its still works fine, it's just not "optimal". I don't feel being Bastioned in one spot hammering stuff is optimal (for my playstyle at least) for much. I can already do that with ZERO ammo cost with drones, and since the AI change, I've only lost a handful of sentries, normally from accidentally clicking in space and flying out of recall range. I don't have any better way to generate ISK, I've tried market/manufacture and ... well, I need missions to fix ISK mistakes :-) what can I say, I'm the metagame meat for better players ...

Dear CCP, I will still fly the suckers (at least the Golem and Kronos, as I built up BS V in those to also max out the Rattler (two birds, one stone thing) but I hope you keep an open mind when it goes live and are willing to still tweak them if they still remain not-as-popular as you think they should be.

PS: Personally, they should be like the Shadow Ships in Babylon 5. In fact I think that's the perfect model for the Golem. Marauder appears, people crap their pants. Not sure what I'd call such an expansion ... Icrapdmypoda could be one, but it's probably too similar sounding to that other expansion.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6071 - 2013-10-17 10:47:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.


1. Its not debatable, its just wrong. Remove tracking bonuses from all marauders and force them to use Target Painters by wasting med slots, or delete target painter bonus on Golem to place this ship in line with others.

2. Golem got cap intensive shield tank which uses.. med slots, and if u equip MJD, cap injector/recharge and TP in very same med slots, u got only 4 slots left for tanking mods. Compare this to other marauders who can use their ship bonuses and have 7 slots tank in same time.

3. Kronos, Paladin and Vargur got additional damage bonus (5% to damage or 5% to rof) while Golem is the only one who doesnt got damage bonus. Argument that Golem can choose damage is false since Vargur can do it too and he got that bonus. Not to mention fact that all other marauders deals insta damage, while Golem missiles need to fly to target (target which can just warp off). Thats why Golem should be on prefered status in case of ship bonuses, not the opposite. Lets face it, Golem is the last ship in case of PVP.

4. Last but not least. Since bastion module will make them immune to tracking disruptors (in favour of 3 marauders using turrets), will bastion module make Golem immune from defender missiles too? How many times people need to ask this question for u to answerQuestionQuestionQuestion
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#6072 - 2013-10-17 10:48:00 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not ment to out damage the pirate shipBlink

this is very true. what a lot of eft warriors dont get, and is evident from the fits they post, is that we fly the marauder because it can loot and salvage AT THE SAME TIME!

doing 10% less damage is acceptable if we make double the isk in the same amount of time.


What an idiotic comment. I skilled to my marauders, golem and vargur, from the beginning. I use a tractor beam only if i need a mission objective. If i want to loot i use a dedicated alt-char with a noctis simultaneously.

I like to fly into enemies and do massive damage. Your proposed fittings with reduced tank and bastion forces me to change the style I like and to negate close range high dps.

this makes no sense, why then fly a ship that is inferior to a mach in the every way if you are not going to use the one thing that makes it better than a mach?

irony calling my comment idiotic hahaha.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#6073 - 2013-10-17 10:48:44 UTC
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.


1. Its not debatable, its just wrong. Remove tracking bonuses from all marauders and force them to use Target Painters by wasting med slots, or delete target painter bonus on Golem to place this ship in line with others
2. Secondly, Golem got cap intensive shield tank which uses.. med slots, and if u equip MJD, cap injector/recharge and TP in very same med slots, u got only 4 slots left for tanking mods. Compare this to other marauders who can use their ship bonuses and have 7 slots tank in same time.

3. Not to mention that all Kronos, Paladin and Vargur got additional damage bonus (5% to damage or 5% to rof) while Golem is the only one who dont have it, which is hilarious considering this is the only one marauder thats not dealing insta damage. Missiles must fly to target and this is another big drawback of this ship (but its how missiles works).

4. Last but not least. Since bastion module will make them immune to tracking disruptors (infavour of all 3 marauders using turrets), will bastion module make Golem immune from defender missiles too? How many times people need to ask this question for u to answer?


I prefer the TP bonus to better apply my torp damage tbh.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
SOL Ranger
Imperial Armed Forces
#6074 - 2013-10-17 10:57:29 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Lina Theist wrote:

Perhaps the scorch issue lies not with the modules but with the ammo?


Well nope. Scorch is the only thing that keeps peoples from abandoning amarr. Don't forget that for good DPS and range You pay with cap consumption, tracking and damage type compared to other races.

Someone here suggest to buff falloff ranges in bastion, that's a good idea.


The problems lay in scorch and barrage, there is no question about it, CCP knows it, most players suspect it, you know it.

We've even experienced a TE nerf largely because of barrage and I dare say much crying about projectile ships are directly related to it; The reason beams are less popular is because of scorch, there is little reason to fit beams, beams are less versatile and forgiving than pulse with scorch, which invalidates the whole idea of beams to a significant degree, artillery at least has alpha as a defining trait.

We're now close in experiencing a similar effect in the range bonus in bastion being stacking penalized just because of short range weaponry easily hitting at long ranges, the ammo used when CCP decided this? Lets all take a wild guess.

Until the ammo is balanced everything else will keep getting nerfed and moaned about, often without the complaints even recognizing the problem being in the ammunition, instead directing proposed nerfs to hull bonuses and other factors if possible, screaming how 'OP' autocannons are, possibly resulting in nerfing TE's even further.

You and others saying the problem doesn't lay in the ammunition makes it all worse, the longer the ammo remains as is the more erroneous balancing choices will go through the cracks, effectively eliminating all other ammunition as anything viable in the end.
The ammunition are used in every balancing situation involving guns, we're not gaining anything good from keeping them as they are currently, let alone from denying the problem to begin with.

The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6075 - 2013-10-17 10:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Debora Tsung wrote:

I prefer the TP bonus to better apply my torp damage tbh.


U can allways use TP even without bonus, and if they change it to 25% reduction of all missiles sig radius, u wont need to use this module just as other marauders lost his EW in favour of tracking bonuses.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6076 - 2013-10-17 11:00:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Anize Oramara wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its not ment to out damage the pirate shipBlink

this is very true. what a lot of eft warriors dont get, and is evident from the fits they post, is that we fly the marauder because it can loot and salvage AT THE SAME TIME!

doing 10% less damage is acceptable if we make double the isk in the same amount of time.


What an idiotic comment. I skilled to my marauders, golem and vargur, from the beginning. I use a tractor beam only if i need a mission objective. If i want to loot i use a dedicated alt-char with a noctis simultaneously.

I like to fly into enemies and do massive damage. Your proposed fittings with reduced tank and bastion forces me to change the style I like and to negate close range high dps.

this makes no sense, why then fly a ship that is inferior to a mach in the every way if you are not going to use the one thing that makes it better than a mach?

irony calling my comment idiotic hahaha.



Finally you get it. Why fly a vargur if a low skill pirate BS with the same price does everything better?

Now i am trying a 1400 fit on sisi. it is quite acceptable but the 101km lockrange in combination with MJD and the necessary anc rig makes it somehow hard to use full potential.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6077 - 2013-10-17 11:04:49 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?

  • The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.


    • It can only tractor one wreck? Shocked... What an utter waste of time Lol

    The wishlist is pretty much complete...
    Anize Oramara
    WarpTooZero
    #6078 - 2013-10-17 11:06:07 UTC
    Brib Vogt wrote:
    Anize Oramara wrote:
    Brib Vogt wrote:
    my bla

    that vargur is overtanked and you completely missed the point of the mjd! drop the 2nd invul, get a gist large b-type and replace mwd with mjd. fit sebo/3rd TC to taste and proceed to kick some faces in.


    Are you even reading the other posts. its not a MWD its an afterburner. and it is not overtanked because i am on the move and not in bastion. And gist booster are a reason to gank me again.

    it doesnt matter what it is, you are trying to fit a vargur as if it was a mach and youre surprised it's not working. thats like eve 101 hahaha!

    A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
    Jacob Bok'Kila
    Logrotate Inc.
    #6079 - 2013-10-17 11:06:47 UTC
    Debora Tsung wrote:
    Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


    So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.


    1. Its not debatable, its just wrong. Remove tracking bonuses from all marauders and force them to use Target Painters by wasting med slots, or delete target painter bonus on Golem to place this ship in line with others
    2. Secondly, Golem got cap intensive shield tank which uses.. med slots, and if u equip MJD, cap injector/recharge and TP in very same med slots, u got only 4 slots left for tanking mods. Compare this to other marauders who can use their ship bonuses and have 7 slots tank in same time.

    3. Not to mention that all Kronos, Paladin and Vargur got additional damage bonus (5% to damage or 5% to rof) while Golem is the only one who dont have it, which is hilarious considering this is the only one marauder thats not dealing insta damage. Missiles must fly to target and this is another big drawback of this ship (but its how missiles works).

    4. Last but not least. Since bastion module will make them immune to tracking disruptors (infavour of all 3 marauders using turrets), will bastion module make Golem immune from defender missiles too? How many times people need to ask this question for u to answer?


    I prefer the TP bonus to better apply my torp damage tbh.



    Yes, torps apply damage equally on stationary bastioned marauders therefore the ewar immunity does not hurt.

    1. TP is needed to apply any decent damage compared to other marauders the same on smaller or even moving targets. TP bonus can be removed but only with consideration of a new bonus to help balaced topredo damage application.
    However cruise missiles have no issue with this.

    2. So you would donate 5-6 low slots for tank on a paladin?

    3. Missiles work differently. Torpedoes have more issues too.
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #6080 - 2013-10-17 11:13:44 UTC
    CCP how about you give paladin a REAL bonus in place of the capacitor one? Even if weak. IT feel REALLY like a "we dont care" when you leave fake bonuses like those in hulls. Any bonsu that applies to base hull stas and matched to the T1 ship skill are effectively fake bonuses :/

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"