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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Ewersmen
Perkone
Caldari State
#5261 - 2013-10-10 19:18:25 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


This is a bad idea .....if you cant see that then you cant see past your own nose......just make a new class of ship???
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#5262 - 2013-10-10 19:39:18 UTC
CCP Ytterbium, un-nerf everything that you've already done to the hulls. We want these ships to be able to continue doing what they have always been doing, shooting rats.

Go ahead with the bastion, but make it so that it never has to be considered for PvE, and we can carry on as before. With the possible sole exception of wormhole warfare, your PvP idea is a dead duck, and you could be better spending your time on something productive.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#5263 - 2013-10-10 19:55:43 UTC
How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?

Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,

The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null.

My Condor costs less than that module!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5264 - 2013-10-10 20:00:50 UTC
TehCloud wrote:
How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?

Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,

The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null.


You fly them with other ships like the new EA-frigs that get an 80km web.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5265 - 2013-10-10 20:07:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
TehCloud wrote:
How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?

Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,

The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null.


You fly them with other ships like the new EA-frigs that get an 80km web.


Or a Loki or Scimitar... going solo in Marauder is like going solo in Dread...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5266 - 2013-10-10 20:10:38 UTC
Ewersmen wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


This is a bad idea .....if you cant see that then you cant see past your own nose......just make a new class of ship???

New ship class isn't justified here. There really isn't enough for it. Depending on what is given back we could well wind up with something close to the marauders of old + the option of Bastion. Besides, another class with bastion while leaving the current ships as is will just further step on the toes of marauders.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#5267 - 2013-10-10 20:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
TehCloud wrote:
How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?

Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,

The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null.


Have to agree. Much as I didn't see the reasoning behind trading rep bonus on the hulls for a web bonus, a Kronos in its current state without it seems very naked. That said, may be best not to fly one on its own (i.e., bring others for web and tackle).

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
STush T
House of Tuachair
#5268 - 2013-10-10 20:14:47 UTC
I was disturbed when I learned that all my time spent on training into a pve ship was going to be for a new pvp ship. But taking it in stride, a good pvp ship is also a good pve ship, right? Except rats are nothing like real people, but anyway. All i really need to feel like i didnt waste my time training into marauder V is a ship with good dps, survive ability, mobility, and someway to loot and salvage.
"Come back with a noctis" someone might say, I didnt train into a noctis, I trained into a marauder because of its capabilities.
"Have an alt in a noctis" Im not going to pay twice as much because you decided to ruin my way of play.
"This is EVE, adapt" yes Im aware change is normal, but if you save up money to buy tacos, and on the way to your table it turns into a hamburger, thats a bit much. At most give me fish tacos instead of chicken

All Im saying is, dont forget that the reason people fly a marauder up until Nov 19, is because its pve capabilities. If you forget that role, you basically have just eliminated that ship, and wasted the marauder pilots time.

Disclaimers
-I speak only from a PVE standpoint, missions to be more specific.
-This is written from MY standpoint, and other pilots like me. I dont pvp, so obviously Im not interested in how well it will do in pvp.

The new marauder may be dandy, but if its lost the role that i trained into it for, then my time was wasted.


One last thing, WHERE IS THE INFO ON THE Deployable Tractor Structure? kind of a big deal to pveers
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#5269 - 2013-10-10 20:27:09 UTC
CCP Ytterbium, as far as I understand, is not trying to eliminate the PvE ability of Marauders. He's trying to move them from being PvE-only into being suitable for both PvE and PvP.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5270 - 2013-10-10 20:33:00 UTC
anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5271 - 2013-10-10 20:36:42 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon.


Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos?
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5272 - 2013-10-10 20:58:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon.


Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos?


lol why does fleet typhooon get it but not typhoon then?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#5273 - 2013-10-10 21:08:27 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon.


Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos?


lol why does fleet typhooon get it but not typhoon then?


Are you seriously trying to draw a comparison between a regular T1 ship and a faction ship, but then mix a T2 ship of a whole different race into it as well?
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5274 - 2013-10-10 21:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: TheFace Asano
STush T wrote:
I was disturbed when I learned that all my time spent on training into a pve ship was going to be for a new pvp ship. But taking it in stride, a good pvp ship is also a good pve ship, right? Except rats are nothing like real people, but anyway. All i really need to feel like i didnt waste my time training into marauder V is a ship with good dps, survive ability, mobility, and someway to loot and salvage.
"Come back with a noctis" someone might say, I didnt train into a noctis, I trained into a marauder because of its capabilities.
"Have an alt in a noctis" Im not going to pay twice as much because you decided to ruin my way of play.
"This is EVE, adapt" yes Im aware change is normal, but if you save up money to buy tacos, and on the way to your table it turns into a hamburger, thats a bit much. At most give me fish tacos instead of chicken

All Im saying is, dont forget that the reason people fly a marauder up until Nov 19, is because its pve capabilities. If you forget that role, you basically have just eliminated that ship, and wasted the marauder pilots time.

Disclaimers
-I speak only from a PVE standpoint, missions to be more specific.
-This is written from MY standpoint, and other pilots like me. I dont pvp, so obviously Im not interested in how well it will do in pvp.

The new marauder may be dandy, but if its lost the role that i trained into it for, then my time was wasted.


One last thing, WHERE IS THE INFO ON THE Deployable Tractor Structure? kind of a big deal to pveers


CCP Yitterbium stated that they will be giving back some (maybe all?) of the hull nerf. Several have had fitting increases, so if the hulls are close to the old with some fitting extras, you will be at a net increase in capabilities. Then you can activate Bastion (oh sh*t button) and super tank if need be, or break EWAR. You can pull distance by MJDing, and you will be able to blap frigs, which all turret ships can do at zero transversal from range. With the 60 sec cd you have plenty of time, and you have more fitting options with Bastion. What the ships do not have is more dps than faction or Pirate, or mobility of some of them, and they won't be getting the web bonus back either. Less drone/bay, although we may be getting some of that back too. The Paly/Kronos can dual prop, the Golem / Vargur can dual ASB (so far if you dual asb i think 1 large and 1 xl will be enough, or just fit a Large or XL booster + cap booster). This ship line has more choice now than ever, hell the vargur can actually fit Arties now..

You can still also fit your salvagers and tractors as they all received an extra high (Bastion is like 7cpu and 100 grid to fit...). The auto tractor structure may make the tractor bonus obsolete, and you can fit multiple salvagers if that's the case. I think I saw somewhere that it was going to be 50m3 in hold and 1000m3 in space, can't remember where though.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#5275 - 2013-10-10 21:55:11 UTC
This occurred to me in a related thread.

So as to more closely match the Marauder description, and to not tread on Noctis territory as much, perhaps you could consider giving Marauders a special cargo hold that only holds the new personal array's (such as the Depot and the tractor/loot array).

If this were done a Marauder would be uniquely able to set up a base camp of sorts deep in hostile territory to conduct NPC operations and would likely have some PVP applications as well if you consider the cyno jammer array.

You might also then consider turning that tractor range/velocity bonus into a salvaging bonus instead.

It would promote use of the new arrays, and make Marauders a much more flexible and unique platform for people to consider.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5276 - 2013-10-10 21:57:22 UTC
TehCloud wrote:
How are you supposed to do pvp when you have no web bonus and are forced to use bastion for everything?

Everything will just burn out of your range and warp away,

The Kronos is a Gallente Boat. So would you please give it a125mbit dronebandwith? You're forced to use blasters anyway since rails are worse than blasters with null.


If they give the Marauders 125mbit bandwidth people will do stupidly absurd gimmick fits. The Kronos will run missions shield tanked with 4 magstabs and 3 DDAs with 5 sentry drones.
Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
#5277 - 2013-10-10 22:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Outz Xacto
stoicfaux wrote:

NPC Defenders acting screwy: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3411475#post3411475 (e.g. always missing at 70+km, hitting less often than expected, etc.) Still needs more formal testing at more ranges, which I haven't had the time/patience to do.

As for the Golem in level 4s, you can fit a two slot tank (Pithum C MSB + invul II) and use 4 TPs on each and every target, which tends to makes the choice between missile speed rigs or rigor rigs a bit moot. Use Bastion mode to pick up the slack in tanking when you need it. The MJD on my sisi Golem was just for looks.

A Golem with Pithum C MSB + Invul II + Bastion mode lasted 4m 7s in AE's bonus room with full room aggro (killed only the trigger to spawn the extra battleships.)


Nice find with the article thanks!

I'd try a different fit too, eventually of course >_>, sounds like you left because your tank couldn't hold out though, should have been able to sit in there for a good 10minutes if your tank was above incoming dps, just basing that off your cap usage. On TQ you can get similar tank for that duration, with proper 3s fitting, though of course your tank is controlled by available cap... using that tank (even removing a hardener and using bastion would be some ridiculous overtanking).

4th TP isn't accomplishing anything. You will kill faster/same with 1x rigor 1 and 3 TPs than you will with 4 TPs and no rigor. A rigor and 4 TPs does nothing either to the volley count to kill ships (that having rigors/TPing matter). So the 4th TP is a waste. (So no, its not moot between missile speed/rigors, and the only reason truely that you would get away with less rigors is due to the TP cycle change and being able to stack them on targets reliably, NOT due to changes made to the golem.)

However, I do agree, it gives you that extra mid slot, if you can use Bastion, without impacting mission times (using it then being locked down for x time waiting for cycle to end). (3 slot tanking is already possible for the Golem, so can't reliably say its getting 2 mid slots with the use of Bastion). I could see some applications to take advantage of the slot gained, I also however see that just adding a mid slot to the hull without introducing the bastion module could have accomplished similar results when considering the drawbacks associated with Bastion.

So far, unfortunately I still believe that the change to TP's cycle time (not a maraudar specific change) and the cap change on the Golem (my maraudar of choice), are the real changes that matter. Both of which were simple and easy, everything involved in this bastion module seems like a massive waste of designer/developer resources to throw a coat of paint over mold and hope no one notices. The Golem still struggles to have the same flexibility the RNI has, and doesn't perform better than the RNI, where CM's are concerned with these changes. It's still got its perks, but those were already there to begin with and why I liked the ship already, the bastion change isn't really doing much for the hull, that couldn't have been done easier/better.
STush T
House of Tuachair
#5278 - 2013-10-10 23:03:20 UTC  |  Edited by: STush T
TheFace Asano wrote:


CCP Yitterbium stated that they will be giving back some (maybe all?) of the hull nerf. Several have had fitting increases, so if the hulls are close to the old with some fitting extras, you will be at a net increase in capabilities. Then you can activate Bastion (oh sh*t button) and super tank if need be, or break EWAR. You can pull distance by MJDing, and you will be able to blap frigs, which all turret ships can do at zero transversal from range. With the 60 sec cd you have plenty of time, and you have more fitting options with Bastion. What the ships do not have is more dps than faction or Pirate, or mobility of some of them, and they won't be getting the web bonus back either. Less drone/bay, although we may be getting some of that back too. The Paly/Kronos can dual prop, the Golem / Vargur can dual ASB (so far if you dual asb i think 1 large and 1 xl will be enough, or just fit a Large or XL booster + cap booster). This ship line has more choice now than ever, hell the vargur can actually fit Arties now..

You can still also fit your salvagers and tractors as they all received an extra high (Bastion is like 7cpu and 100 grid to fit...). The auto tractor structure may make the tractor bonus obsolete, and you can fit multiple salvagers if that's the case. I think I saw somewhere that it was going to be 50m3 in hold and 1000m3 in space, can't remember where though.



I am aware of some of the benefits, ewar immunity being a huge plus, but my concerns are for the ability to shoot, salvage, and move. If it is like you say it is, then I will be tickled pink and be absolutely content. Perfect would be if they threw in another mid so that you didnt have to lose anything to fit a MJD though.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#5279 - 2013-10-11 00:44:35 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
anyway you look kronos is crap. except that the ship looks beautiful. But yeah gallente need extra bandwidth for the crappy rail they have to use. give kronos like 200/125 like fleet typhoon.


Mega doesn't get that so why should the kronos?


lol why does fleet typhooon get it but not typhoon then?


Are you seriously trying to draw a comparison between a regular T1 ship and a faction ship, but then mix a T2 ship of a whole different race into it as well?


phoon -> fleet Phoon ->

Mega -> navy mega -> kronos

Phoon does nto have it, Fleet phoon does

Mega does not have it, Navy mega does.

no particular reason that the Kronos souldnt have it just because the base model does not.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5280 - 2013-10-11 00:53:59 UTC
Well, ran another test tonight on Sisi. The Paladin looks to be finished as a viable boat in Vanguards.
Thanks CCP. Why can't you guys just come out and say "**** you high sec".
Every one of your actions displays what you think.

Oh, and will the new Marauders tank L4's? Very easily. Will they finish them any faster? Doubt it.

You guys always whine about how this is an MMO, and we are supposed to play with others.
Of course, then you wreck a ship class that was used in groups, that being Incursions.

Will the Marauders still work in Incursions? Yup. no doubt. But the DPS is such a joke now, there are umpteen boats that are much cheaper, and skill-intensive, yet now outclass the Marauders in performance in Vanguards.

And for all you clowns gloating about this, remember, the same guys wrecking this class are coming after your Vindi's. Machs, and Nightmares soon.