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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5121 - 2013-10-08 21:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Mer88 wrote:
with 5s tp golem is going to be amazing once again I am guessing torp golem will be the way to go. with 2 x t2 flight time riggs , hull velocity bonus and bastion velocity bonus, the jav torpedo should hit 80km and rage 40km.


part of the problem is pg and CPU.

Also, I think you math is off.

You may want to test it...
Nerdy Deadshot
In The Goo
EVE Trade Alliance
#5122 - 2013-10-08 22:52:28 UTC
Alright so I've taken upon myself to bring up some issues I currently have with the Vargur (a ship I'm extremely familiar with), both with the current incarnation and with the proposed changes.

First and foremost, the bastion mod is great, I whipped up a great tank on the test server and was putting out some pretty respectable dps. I would feel comfortable in one in any lvl 4 mission, and it some limited small engagement pvp.
But, lets talk about large fleet pvp and incursions.

When it comes down to it, the benefits of the bastion mod are useless if you can not be remote repped, so these mods will probably not be used with large fleets or incursions.

Which brings us back the current problem with incursions and large fleets, the Macharial is simply a better ship.
To prove this I set out in pyfa to come up with competing fits for both ships and prove that the dps of the macharial is always better, in both projected and applied, a fact I believe should not be so. These fits are non-blingy fits that I generally use with groups I'm not accustomed to run with and are meant for comparison purposes only, not for trolls to pick apart.

Competitive fits:
[Vargur, incursion]

Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Auto Targeting System II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

[Machariel, incursion]

Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Sensor Booster II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Projectile Burst Aerator I
Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I

The Tracking computer scripts change as needed.
Drone dps was ignored, though its worth noting the mach has 50m3 more drone space and 25 mbit/s more bandwidth.
All skills level V
Major points: (Vargur/Mach)
EHP: 79k / 90.9k
DPS: 903 / 988
Range: About the same
Tracking speed: While the Vargur should be able to maintain between 0.01 and 0.02 rad/sec, due to having inferior DPS its damage projection on moving targets gives only a slight edge when the target is closer, though for the most part close targets should be webbed by someone in the fleet, and as long as a 60degree traveling ship is under 300m/s the extra tracking doesn't help.

With the planned changes, the tank will only get worse of a disproportion while the dps application will stay about the same...

I wholeheartedly believe that the T2 resist profile should be rolled into the hull, and not connected to the bastion mod.
If you want connect the shield boost increase to the bastion, or just increase ranges of weapons and ewar.
I also believe its time for the Vargur to get a dps increase, by changing the 5% increase in dps to a 7.25%, the dps would be tied and the t2 resist profile would free up slots to allow for better damage projections.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#5123 - 2013-10-09 00:04:51 UTC
Tragedy wrote:
1200 dps at 20+50k is underwhelming? ....

From a pve perspective its still the same story, just better range and tank. I dont know what you expeted. Selectable damage type is the projectiles strength, high tracking on the hybrids, high damage and kickass range with scorch. They're not going to bump all the marauders damage up to the same numbers just for kicks. They're not the same ship.


When the ship is fit for nothing but dps yea it kinda is, also you are rounding up a good bit.

projectiles can select damage type but their damage is barely above cruise missiles, which are pure damage types and can pick any damage type. the high tracking isn't really all that useful in pve missions. tachyons out damage and out range scorch.

and of course they aren't the same ship, but as proposed the Vargur and Kronos are not all that competitive. I'd rather fly a golem or machariel than a vargur, and well, probably anything over a Kronos.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5124 - 2013-10-09 00:46:25 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:


When the ship is fit for nothing but dps yea it kinda is, also you are rounding up a good bit.

projectiles can select damage type but their damage is barely above cruise missiles, which are pure damage types and can pick any damage type. the high tracking isn't really all that useful in pve missions. tachyons out damage and out range scorch.

and of course they aren't the same ship, but as proposed the Vargur and Kronos are not all that competitive. I'd rather fly a golem or machariel than a vargur, and well, probably anything over a Kronos.



57 km range with null is a very nice thing to have in null anoms.
Vivi Udan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5125 - 2013-10-09 01:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vivi Udan
I really like the bastion module on the Kronos. Although some may not like the immobility of the bastion mod, it seems to work well as a 'plan b'. The reduced time of the MJD is amazing at keeping someone within range (I was able to keep a Talos with a MWD in range) and even when you activate bastion mode the optimal and falloff bonus helps keep yourself in the fight.

I briefly tried using the Golem and was (barely) able to make it out alive after being ganked by 4 battlecruisers because of the bastion's resists and rep bonuses and the marauder MJD bonus.

I used to use the Kronos for null sec ratting but always found it hard to keep rats in range even with a duel web fit. With bastion mode it will make a very nice ratting ship even without the webs... although I still like webs.

On a side note, I think the 'transformation' for the Kronos is more like popping the hood on a car and not nearly as impressive as the Golem's transformation.

The Mittani of House GoonWaffe, First of His name, King of the Goons and VFK, Master of griefing, Lord of the CFC, Warden of the West, and Protector of Deklein.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5126 - 2013-10-09 02:11:24 UTC
Vivi Udan wrote:
I really like the bastion module on the Kronos. Although some may not like the immobility of the bastion mod, it seems to work well as a 'plan b'. The reduced time of the MJD is amazing at keeping someone within range (I was able to keep a Talos with a MWD in range) and even when you activate bastion mode the optimal and falloff bonus helps keep yourself in the fight.

I briefly tried using the Golem and was (barely) able to make it out alive after being ganked by 4 battlecruisers because of the bastion's resists and rep bonuses and the marauder MJD bonus.

I used to use the Kronos for null sec ratting but always found it hard to keep rats in range even with a duel web fit. With bastion mode it will make a very nice ratting ship even without the webs... although I still like webs.

On a side note, I think the 'transformation' for the Kronos is more like popping the hood on a car and not nearly as impressive as the Golem's transformation.


You think the Golem transformation is impressive?

You have low standards....

On a more serious note, the Golem still suffers from cap recharge issues, and with bastion it's really tight to build a good xl-boost and mwd/MJD fit.
I don't think it's even possible with torps
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5127 - 2013-10-09 02:34:38 UTC
Can't find any anoms on sisi, but the few belt rats i fought seemed pretty nice, 3 slot tank is completely doable, generous fitting when not dual XL ASB. Projection was ok, but it needs to be non-stacking 25%. 10-15km extra falloff depending on ammo.

I would suggest pulling 2 of the high slots and putting them to mids or lows on all the ships. That would still leave 2 utility highs without bastion, 1 with. Add some damage to bastion, too, something in the range of 15-25 percent. Local tank is not a problem, and additional mids / lows would help incursion runners fit extra buffer tank.

Scripting bastion would be a good idea imo as well.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#5128 - 2013-10-09 03:02:41 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
marVLs wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


that's a flat out LIE.

I've flown the Golem on live and test, with and without ewar.

Bastion Golem outperforms by leaps and bounds.


Don't be silly, how much missions You got with heavy jamming? Not too much, everywhere else old golem is faster, and with missions that have jammers You stand still, while old version is at next gate, so not such much faster in them overall.

Only few missions are completed faster with this rebalance (only some with heavy ewar), rest of missions takes longer than before


For me the new build is faster.
Like I stated, I'm able to free up a mid slot thanks to bastion.
Thus allowing me to fit a mwd without losing a large portion of tank through resists.

So for me it's faster.

Edit...
Oh and ewar immunity actually allows you to be able to fly against Guristas.

Also, I've always sit and shoot, so bastion doesn't hurt me at all in this reguard


but tq golem could easily run missions with a c type xlarge + 2 a type reses easily with a battery leaving you with 3 high slots to play with ? wheres the gain here ?!?!?!?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5129 - 2013-10-09 03:18:30 UTC
Elfi Wolfe wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
oh and can someone explain why my math is wrong.

afaik 60% resists multiplied by 30% resists should end up being

0.6 * 1.3 = 0.78 or 78% resistance


but in the game the Resistance for hull is 73%

i just want to know how to correct my math please and thank you.


60% resistance. 40% left. 30% of 40% is 12% 60%+12% = 72%.


thank you

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5130 - 2013-10-09 03:28:02 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
marVLs wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


that's a flat out LIE.

I've flown the Golem on live and test, with and without ewar.

Bastion Golem outperforms by leaps and bounds.


Don't be silly, how much missions You got with heavy jamming? Not too much, everywhere else old golem is faster, and with missions that have jammers You stand still, while old version is at next gate, so not such much faster in them overall.

Only few missions are completed faster with this rebalance (only some with heavy ewar), rest of missions takes longer than before


For me the new build is faster.
Like I stated, I'm able to free up a mid slot thanks to bastion.
Thus allowing me to fit a mwd without losing a large portion of tank through resists.

So for me it's faster.

Edit...
Oh and ewar immunity actually allows you to be able to fly against Guristas.

Also, I've always sit and shoot, so bastion doesn't hurt me at all in this reguard


but tq golem could easily run missions with a c type xlarge + 2 a type reses easily with a battery leaving you with 3 high slots to play with ? wheres the gain here ?!?!?!?


The gain is that you can do so while tanking an entire room with little to no issues.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#5131 - 2013-10-09 03:52:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
People need to stop thinking only with their pve min/max hats on.

that's what I'll do with my marauders, so that is what I am most concerned with. the min/max setups are all nearly workable on TQ now. for most missions I probably won't even touch bastion, but I have that option to get huge tank burst.

In pvp terms (I'll look at small gang) I think it is fairly similar.

Paladin apoc/abaddon love child, looks sexy. laser projection is ftw! mobility ain't great though 106m/s on its own 741 with a mwd. gives a nice armor counterpart to the nightmare.

kronos, I think I'd rather have the web bonus, but hey MMO, so having tacklers is important. it is hard to abuse the falloff bonus without a bunch of tracking mods. Also tiny drone bay boo! but I think I'd rather have a vindi. the kronos feels almost more like a rohk than anything else. I still think it would benefit from a bigger drone bay.

golem, again with the have some tacklers idea, the TP bonus is pretty nice to have. Torps seem a bit under rated (although still have some issues). also can do insane things with ASBs. cruise missiles aren't too terrible. I really can't say how this compares to the new cnr, or fleet phoon.

vargur. outside of ASB sillyness I don't see it having much use. maybe get some MJD + arty lulz. I'd rather get a mach and zoom zoom.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#5132 - 2013-10-09 03:58:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:


When the ship is fit for nothing but dps yea it kinda is, also you are rounding up a good bit.

projectiles can select damage type but their damage is barely above cruise missiles, which are pure damage types and can pick any damage type. the high tracking isn't really all that useful in pve missions. tachyons out damage and out range scorch.

and of course they aren't the same ship, but as proposed the Vargur and Kronos are not all that competitive. I'd rather fly a golem or machariel than a vargur, and well, probably anything over a Kronos.



57 km range with null is a very nice thing to have in null anoms.


indeed it is, but a lot of that is falloff.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#5133 - 2013-10-09 04:10:30 UTC
why evem fuss over an xl build when navy large booster lasts longer and overheating hurts it so little...
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5134 - 2013-10-09 05:08:57 UTC
1v1 vs Fleet Phoon in Vargur, it was 2x 1600mm fit with RHML. I boosted a couple times with my asb and that is it. Hail ammo has a 34km falloff in bastion, and with the increased tracking of the vargur, it cancels out the bad tracking of hail. didn't use any heat.

PVP these things are pretty damn good until RR comes into play and large numbers. Breaking the tank of these is going to take quite a few ships.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#5135 - 2013-10-09 05:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
TheFace Asano wrote:
1v1 vs Fleet Phoon in Vargur, it was 2x 1600mm fit with RHML. I boosted a couple times with my asb and that is it. Hail ammo has a 34km falloff in bastion, and with the increased tracking of the vargur, it cancels out the bad tracking of hail. didn't use any heat.

PVP these things are pretty damn good until RR comes into play and large numbers. Breaking the tank of these is going to take quite a few ships.



please post some good fittings with reasonable use of imps (name them), some ship information and 1 or 2 heavy neuts...vargur sucks

and please... 1v1 with a phoon? You know in PVP it is all about killing the other guy. how would you ever kill a phoon in pvp with a vargur. It just flys away.
Mc Cormeg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5136 - 2013-10-09 10:13:40 UTC
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5137 - 2013-10-09 10:19:58 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

indeed it is, but a lot of that is falloff.


You spend most of the time in falloff with blasters anyway.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5138 - 2013-10-09 10:20:55 UTC
Mc Cormeg wrote:
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.


It would make them far too powerful.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5139 - 2013-10-09 11:40:50 UTC
Mc Cormeg wrote:
To spread the usefullnes of Marauders in PVP maybe its worthwile to grant the Bastion Module a repair amount bonus not only to loal reps but rather also to RR reps?

That could be lead us to some interessting "triage" warfare with marauder wolfpacks.

Only if nothing more but small reppers can be applied to them P

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Egravant Alduin
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#5140 - 2013-10-09 12:38:35 UTC
After I watched some videos with the new transformer thing I was really disappointed since marauders didn t need this.Already they could use micro jump drive and make their applied dps better.It's a useless mode which makes them not better not worse .I agree with some people in here that it could be better to imrpove their tank than giving them this stpd transformer thing. Anyway not the update anyone needed and this is not balancing .

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!