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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4641 - 2013-10-02 11:04:24 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.

Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.

That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.

I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.


A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me.
If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets...


Nope. nobody would be stupid enough to fly into your web range. and why would they? You're sitting still after all.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#4642 - 2013-10-02 11:16:20 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.

Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.

That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.

I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.


A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me.
If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets...


Nope. nobody would be stupid enough to fly into your web range. and why would they? You're sitting still after all.
People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4643 - 2013-10-02 11:22:28 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.

Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.

That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.

I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.


A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me.
If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets...


Most ships will be out of range before you can kill them. That rep bonus is a lot more useful.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4644 - 2013-10-02 11:23:34 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.

Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.

That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.

I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.


A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me.
If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets...


Nope. nobody would be stupid enough to fly into your web range. and why would they? You're sitting still after all.
People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)


The vindicator is the ship you are looking for.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4645 - 2013-10-02 11:33:22 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)


Fair enough, how do you get into web range then, your marauder is atrociously slow, even with MWD. You'd need a tackler just to tackle the guy... Ugh

Not saying you usually don't have a tackler in your gang, but I think you know what I'm talking about.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
marVLs
#4646 - 2013-10-02 11:35:58 UTC
Change tractor bonus for salvage drone bonus, with removing of 1high slot and giving them +25 drone bay.
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4647 - 2013-10-02 12:45:23 UTC
I think the general consenous here is that an 8 high setup with 3 utilities is too much. the armour ships lack the ability to effectively fit tackle on the mids with prop mods - ATM you have MJD MWD/AB Cap booster Scram - still need web even if unbonused or a TC for close range tracking.

As for the shield ships the Golem need 1 more mid to fit the TP while fitting a good tank - 3 hardeners MJD dual ASB & scram
The Vargur needs either a low or a mid, a case can be made for either, im leaning more towards the mid currently after running a fit on EFT, it really struggles to match the golem tank and fit a MJD and Scram.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#4648 - 2013-10-02 13:06:13 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
I think the general consenous here is that an 8 high setup with 3 utilities is too much. the armour ships lack the ability to effectively fit tackle on the mids with prop mods - ATM you have MJD MWD/AB Cap booster Scram - still need web even if unbonused or a TC for close range tracking.

As for the shield ships the Golem need 1 more mid to fit the TP while fitting a good tank - 3 hardeners MJD dual ASB & scram
The Vargur needs either a low or a mid, a case can be made for either, im leaning more towards the mid currently after running a fit on EFT, it really struggles to match the golem tank and fit a MJD and Scram.

have you seen the paladin's stats?
8k base cap, +5% per level=10k cap, plus skills =12500 capacitor.
all this plus an 8 cap per second recharge rate?
cap injectors will be a thing of the past unless you seriously intend to take them into brawling range and be neuted.

i would prefer to stay 70km-100km away and snipe with mega pulse. if they get close, jump in a random direction and snipe from 70km-100km away. there is no NEED to go to bastion unless its favorable. you still get the rep rate bonus.

if they get close enough to scram you, yeah its prolly over unless you have friends. but, if u see peeps in local, siege red, wait for the timer then warp to a pos. go to station and switch ships.

the vargur snipes at 100km with 800mm ac. fight at range.
the blaster kronos has to be a bit closer, but you fit weapons of point blank need in the first place.

i think cap injectors will be going away freeing up your mid slot..
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#4649 - 2013-10-02 13:06:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
baltec1 wrote:


The vindicator is the ship you are looking for.
The Kronos web bonus pre-dates the Vindicator by almost 3 years, and was the only choice for pure specialised Gallente characters, I've not seen any justification for it being removed.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#4650 - 2013-10-02 13:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Really?.... I guess the level 4 crowd really do shout the loudest.

Ok, seen as the Golem keeps a damage application bonus to it's short range weapon system (i.e. painter bonus for torpedoes), give the Kronos back it's web bonus (for blasters) keep the falloff and optimal bonuses for the Vargur and Paladin.

That way you have two 'long range optimised' Marauders, and two 'close-in optimised' for brawling.

I think the biggest problem you had with Iteration II was the blanket approach rather than keeping things distinct.


A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me.
If you're sitting still it's even more reason to have a web strength bonus, given you cannot move to reduce transversal of orbiting targets...


Most ships will be out of range before you can kill them. That rep bonus is a lot more useful.
Would you like to re-read what you wrote there and think on it?

Hint: 90% web...

Edit: And I was referring to reverting the falloff bonus back to the web.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
marVLs
#4651 - 2013-10-02 13:16:14 UTC
I think they should remove another high slot for med or low slot, paladin and kronos need those meds especially, just look at vindi: more buffer, better scan res etc, faster more agile, bigger drone bay, better dps, bonus to web, 3rig slots, 5med slots.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4652 - 2013-10-02 13:30:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Vulfen wrote:
I think the general consenous here is [...]

That's exactly the problem.

There is no general consensus.

None. At all.

People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O

There is everything but general consensus there is none. Shocked

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4653 - 2013-10-02 14:06:22 UTC
marVLs wrote:
I think they should remove another high slot for med or low slot, paladin and kronos need those meds especially, just look at vindi: more buffer, better scan res etc, faster more agile, bigger drone bay, better dps, bonus to web, 3rig slots, 5med slots.



There's a reason pirate bs's have more slots.
This is the same for faction and pirate of all class ships.

They have more fitting slots because they're designed to be more versatile.
They don't specialize in anything specific.

However, t2 ships specialize, and when you're specialized you require less slots.


That said, I think the 8th high should be dropped and all the ships should be given an extra ....was gonna said mid or tank slot, but I think a low slot would go a long way on the Golem in allowing more fitting options with a CO-processor.
marVLs
#4654 - 2013-10-02 14:07:17 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:

People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O

There is everything but general consensus there is none. Shocked



Let's say it straight those changes do nothing to make marauders better / more useful in situations that they are most used, or at least should be... Im talking about high sec missions and incursions (actualy they will be worse in many scenarios than before rebalance when they were bad...)

Yeah Bastion etc. it's good for null bears and wh pve, but still veeeeery small amount of peps will be using them even there. For HS they're worse than pirate and navy BS's (yeah they will rebalance pirate BS's but not in such degree that they will be worse at PVE than marauders, it's impossible, and still we are after navy BS's rebalance and they're better in most scenarios...).

Another arrow in the knee for them is incoming tractor structure...


Personally i will change:
- tractor bonus for salvage drones bonus ( -1 high slot)
- 5%dam bonus change to 7,5% RoF bonus
- selectable jump distance for MJD because they're terrible slow now (30, 60 and 100km)
- +1 med slot for pali and kronos, +1 low slot for golem and vargur ( -1 high slot)
- change golem to pure torp boat (bastion biiig torp velo bonus and exlosion velocity bonus, remove from golem TP bonus, replace it with explosion radius bonus, maybe -1med slot)
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4655 - 2013-10-02 14:19:01 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:

People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O

There is everything but general consensus there is none. Shocked



Let's say it straight those changes do nothing to make marauders better / more useful in situations that they are most used, or at least should be... Im talking about high sec missions and incursions (actualy they will be worse in many scenarios than before rebalance when they were bad...)

Yeah Bastion etc. it's good for null bears and wh pve, but still veeeeery small amount of peps will be using them even there. For HS they're worse than pirate and navy BS's (yeah they will rebalance pirate BS's but not in such degree that they will be worse at PVE than marauders, it's impossible, and still we are after navy BS's rebalance and they're better in most scenarios...).

Another arrow in the knee for them is incoming tractor structure...


Personally i will change:
- tractor bonus for salvage drones bonus ( -1 high slot)
- 5%dam bonus change to 7,5% RoF bonus
- selectable jump distance for MJD because they're terrible slow now (30, 60 and 100km)
- +1 med slot for pali and kronos, +1 low slot for golem and vargur ( -1 high slot)
- change golem to pure torp boat (bastion biiig torp velo bonus and exlosion velocity bonus, remove from golem TP bonus, replace it with explosion radius bonus, maybe -1med slot)



I think you're missing the strengths that bastion will give to pve.
The range doesn't really matter much to anyone, but if you like using short range weapons in pve, then it'll help since you'll be stuck in one place..

The tank bonus is awesome and is what will really help to make them more effective null and wh pve... probably even low pve as well.
However, the kicker is the ewar immunity... THIS IS AWESOME!!!
For a change Marauders will be usable in Caldari space.
They may even help with people running different types of incursions.
Last time I checked there was a specific type of incursions that no one runs due to ewar (sorry, I don't run incursions so i'm not sure which ones it is).
However, you could warp the fleet in with some Marauders.. have them bastion and focus down jammers, then unbastion and join the rest of the fleet in mopping up the rest with logistics support..

granted, the HP nerfs will kinda hurt Marauders in fleets when it comes to logistics.

That said, I would like to reiterate a suggestion I have made on this thread before.


I really want CCP to strongly consider this.

7.5% BONUS TO SHIELD/ARMOR BOOST AMOUNT PER LEVEL ON LOCAL AND INCOMING REMOTE REP.

I think this would go a LONG way in making the hulls more acceptible in fleet combat.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#4656 - 2013-10-02 14:22:08 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:

People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O

There is everything but general consensus there is none. Shocked



Let's say it straight those changes do nothing to make marauders better / more useful in situations that they are most used, or at least should be... Im talking about high sec missions and incursions (actualy they will be worse in many scenarios than before rebalance when they were bad...)

Yeah Bastion etc. it's good for null bears and wh pve, but still veeeeery small amount of peps will be using them even there. For HS they're worse than pirate and navy BS's (yeah they will rebalance pirate BS's but not in such degree that they will be worse at PVE than marauders, it's impossible, and still we are after navy BS's rebalance and they're better in most scenarios...).

Another arrow in the knee for them is incoming tractor structure...


Personally i will change:
- tractor bonus for salvage drones bonus ( -1 high slot)
- 5%dam bonus change to 7,5% RoF bonus
- selectable jump distance for MJD because they're terrible slow now (30, 60 and 100km)
- +1 med slot for pali and kronos, +1 low slot for golem and vargur ( -1 high slot)
- change golem to pure torp boat (bastion biiig torp velo bonus and exlosion velocity bonus, remove from golem TP bonus, replace it with explosion radius bonus, maybe -1med slot)

i like the dropping of the tractor beam bonus and applying it to salvage drones. thats a damn good idea.
i do not want to get rid of the bastion mode. i think its going to suprise the crap out of everyone.
the selectable mjd would be kewl as a script, but not a class bonus/feature.
i can get behind the rof change. but thats a little much.

i dont fly the golem (in training) so i wont comment. but i will say do NOT make them close range boats. they are for longer ranges.
make torps reach 60k like the blasters do. if you wanna deal close range damage, then ok, but note, these ships will be SO damn nasty at range. instead of only a 25% bonus, make it a 40% bonus to missile speed so torps can reach out there. turrets gain more of a bonus (tracking plus range), so give missiles a longer range.

i for 1 am looking forward to melting crap at 100km all day long. i just hope the tractor module goes out that far.
or, we will jave to warp in at 50k, drop the tractor module, then mjd away. kill, maim, destroy then mjd back, salvage and loot.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#4657 - 2013-10-02 14:27:37 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
marVLs wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:

People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O

There is everything but general consensus there is none. Shocked



Let's say it straight those changes do nothing to make marauders better / more useful in situations that they are most used, or at least should be... Im talking about high sec missions and incursions (actualy they will be worse in many scenarios than before rebalance when they were bad...)

Yeah Bastion etc. it's good for null bears and wh pve, but still veeeeery small amount of peps will be using them even there. For HS they're worse than pirate and navy BS's (yeah they will rebalance pirate BS's but not in such degree that they will be worse at PVE than marauders, it's impossible, and still we are after navy BS's rebalance and they're better in most scenarios...).

Another arrow in the knee for them is incoming tractor structure...


Personally i will change:
- tractor bonus for salvage drones bonus ( -1 high slot)
- 5%dam bonus change to 7,5% RoF bonus
- selectable jump distance for MJD because they're terrible slow now (30, 60 and 100km)
- +1 med slot for pali and kronos, +1 low slot for golem and vargur ( -1 high slot)
- change golem to pure torp boat (bastion biiig torp velo bonus and exlosion velocity bonus, remove from golem TP bonus, replace it with explosion radius bonus, maybe -1med slot)



I think you're missing the strengths that bastion will give to pve.
The range doesn't really matter much to anyone, but if you like using short range weapons in pve, then it'll help since you'll be stuck in one place..

The tank bonus is awesome and is what will really help to make them more effective null and wh pve... probably even low pve as well.
However, the kicker is the ewar immunity... THIS IS AWESOME!!!
For a change Marauders will be usable in Caldari space.
They may even help with people running different types of incursions.
Last time I checked there was a specific type of incursions that no one runs due to ewar (sorry, I don't run incursions so i'm not sure which ones it is).
However, you could warp the fleet in with some Marauders.. have them bastion and focus down jammers, then unbastion and join the rest of the fleet in mopping up the rest with logistics support..

granted, the HP nerfs will kinda hurt Marauders in fleets when it comes to logistics.

That said, I would like to reiterate a suggestion I have made on this thread before.


I really want CCP to strongly consider this.

7.5% BONUS TO SHIELD/ARMOR BOOST AMOUNT PER LEVEL ON LOCAL AND INCOMING REMOTE REP.

I think this would go a LONG way in making the hulls more acceptible in fleet combat.


marauders will not be useful in incursions - all incursions have jammers and we simply take them out. So far there was a blue post that said the marauder could tank the first room of a vg (smallest incursion site people run) and that it had to sacrifice its already lacking dps in order to fit the tank for just that one wave.

So even if you could tank a site, there is no reason to as your dps is reduced significantly compared to other ships. But lets say you did - then you can have ONLY marauders. Because if you have anything else, then you also need a logi to rep them, and if you have 1 logi you will need several more depending on site size in order to rep the person who needs reps, and to rep the other logies.

marauders will be useless in incursions.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4658 - 2013-10-02 14:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
marVLs wrote:
- change golem to pure torp boat (bastion biiig torp velo bonus and exlosion velocity bonus, remove from golem TP bonus, replace it with explosion radius bonus, maybe -1med slot)
Right now Cruise missiles are better than torps, because they are just that. Better than torps... There's no reason not to use Cruise missiles.

And that changes would make cruise missiles even better.

Imagine flinging +1k DPS at 200km without the need of fitting rigs or extra modules for increased damage application. That's the kind of better we're talkin about with that change.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#4659 - 2013-10-02 14:34:55 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Vulfen wrote:
I think the general consenous here is [...]

That's exactly the problem.

There is no general consensus.

None. At all.

People want a web strengh bonus, people want no web bonus, people want a web range bonus but no bastion module tank bonus, people want a bastion module that increases dps but not tank, people want a bastion module that increases tank but lowers dps (whatever that's good for)... it's crazy really. o_O

There is everything but general consensus there is none. Shocked


The only thing that is guaranteed is the ship class will be nerfed badly for PvE activities.
Especially high end ones like Incursions.

Whatever the null sec cartels get as the final modifications, rest assured they will ruin the ship for high sec activities.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#4660 - 2013-10-02 14:37:24 UTC
Since we are changing back to the original itteration, why dont we start again with the problems with that version?


what the **** is with a siege mode with no damage bonus?

Range bonus, tank bonus, mjd bonus, What ?

hp nerf speed nerf, then in siege mode, 0ms and no rr




i mean in the end i guess i will use this mutilated abomination.
If its going to suck this hard can we get better drone space (not even bandwidth, just cargo ok?) and a bonus to salvage drones? Give us something "nice" if the ship is going to be useless.

thanks.