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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#4081 - 2013-09-25 07:01:31 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
At least the new animations show some promise.


We'll, we will get the Bastion mode and its animation for sure. What's moot is wether we will feel inclined to use them at all unless CCP Ytterbium & al get their stuff right and make a decent proposal.

Anyway, knowing CCP, it wouldn't be too unlikely that CCP Ytterbium & al had exhausted their allotted sprint time for marauders and were working on something else, and consequences be damned once iteration 2 goes into production and is released. Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Shivanthar
#4082 - 2013-09-25 08:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Sigras wrote:

Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship.


- Of course you don't have to, but why it is there? I think it is introduced just because to give marauders a pvp ability. Am I wrong?
- Did I look like I have been so eager to transform into something stationary for Pve? Don't rush on me mate, I'm not the one putting bastion mode on Marauders.
- For pve, since shield boost bonus is now gone, wouldn't it be harder for a mission runner ship to run missions?
- For pvp, you fit mwd, and then mjd. Let me guess there is also a webber since there is a web bonus and a cap booster. There is a *chance* that you can transform into bastion or using mjd will take you out of logi range, so you also got a shield booster there. Now you got only one slot to fit resist module. You've got no shield boost bonus. Unless you transform into bastion, you don't get your resists. Oh forgot warp disruption. Webbed guy ran off. Oh, forget the web, put a warp disruptor, but a needles web bonus? Put both, you have no resist before transform. See what I am arguing about? Not well designed for any situation. I love to use sentence "you will be dead yesterday", which suits well here. With a price tag of billions, something is not fitting in this scene.

Sigras wrote:

There are so many things wrong with this I dont even know where to start . . .

First of all, again why do you HAVE to fit a MJD to your PvE setup? If it benefits you, then do it; if it doesnt benefit you, then dont.

Second, what in the holy LOL why are you running a fleet for level 4 missions? It is far more effective to run individual level 4s separately.

Lastly; how is it even conceivable that you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur? I tank level 4s in a shield tanked dominix, and in fact, I tank level 4s in an armor tanked domi with 3 damage mods! If you have to resort to using sniper tactics to stay alive in a level 4, youre seriously doing something wrong.


We are on the same side, but you're looking from a different angle.

- I don't want to fit MJD for sure. But my shield boost bonus is gone, I really need to get away. I was arguing with some other people about mjd usage and why I shouldn't use it. That was the point I was arguing. I don't want it. I am also arguing it is so needless on a Marauder that bonus "slot" shouldn't be wasted with mjd.

- This is a Marauder rebalancing thread, so I'm arguing about bonuses, which is perfectly normal for here. The case "why should I fit" or "why shouldn't" I fit is another subject. Again, I'm just proposing that something more relevant to mission runners instead of mjd bonus. There are ships already you can do better with mjd, in case your dominix example is also used by me in previous posts. Taking off shield boost bonus means "don't be in heat of battle from now on, you have to get away with that ship". Which also means "you are sniper from now on"

- Fleet for lvl 4 missions? Effectiveness? Man, this is not job to be done. This is a game. I'm here to have fun. The time when you run Serpentis Extravaganza for 1000th time, you will start looking for variations. I was just enjoying with my friends. This is the way I enjoy the game. Blacks and whites here. Not a good subject to argue about.

"you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur"
- I've never said this. However, I said that anyone will be in trouble when:
a- When the boost bonus is gone in conjunction with;
b- Maintaining close combat with fireworks exploding around.

You have to get away with the new ship design. That was my problem. This is the Nth time I'm telling this. There are ships where you can snipe, and as your Dominix where you station in 100km away and drop sentries. Their playstyle is good for their role, why put marauders in that style?

Proposed changes doesn't reflect PvE playstyle for marauders. I don't know if I could show the point.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4083 - 2013-09-25 08:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Nyvi Ane wrote:
I think CCP have a Choice to search a other way for marauders.
Marauders can be the best pve ships but they don't must have the superior dps or agility.

Give the Marauders 2 special Maruader Items.
1. a area of Effekt Tractor Beam only for marauders
2. a Area of effekt Salvager

This two Item make a marauder superior and unique and give them a PVE advantage.
Combine this with Bastion mode and u have a isk machine without touching dps or something.

And the PVP mates sorry u have bastion with 2 utility Slots.

no.

If you want to salvage faster than anything else, use a noctis.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Nyvi Ane
Perkone
Caldari State
#4084 - 2013-09-25 10:27:21 UTC
At the Moment is Salvaging/loot with a Marauder Pain and have no sense.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4085 - 2013-09-25 10:37:23 UTC
Nyvi Ane wrote:
At the Moment is Salvaging/loot with a Marauder Pain and have no sense.
And that should change because? Straight

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Shivanthar
#4086 - 2013-09-25 10:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Debora Tsung wrote:
Nyvi Ane wrote:
At the Moment is Salvaging/loot with a Marauder Pain and have no sense.
And that should change because? Straight


Because ccp is re-balancing Marauders for winter release and it is time to give a hand to its outdated salvaging mechanics. This is the correct thread you're in. Welcome aboard.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4087 - 2013-09-25 11:21:12 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Nyvi Ane wrote:
At the Moment is Salvaging/loot with a Marauder Pain and have no sense.
And that should change because? Straight


Because ccp is re-balancing Marauders for winter release and it is time to give a hand to its outdated salvaging mechanics. This is the correct thread you're in. Welcome aboard.


And what has that to do with built in AoE Salvagers and Tractor beams for the Marauder?

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Shivanthar
#4088 - 2013-09-25 11:30:52 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Shivanthar wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Nyvi Ane wrote:
At the Moment is Salvaging/loot with a Marauder Pain and have no sense.
And that should change because? Straight


Because ccp is re-balancing Marauders for winter release and it is time to give a hand to its outdated salvaging mechanics. This is the correct thread you're in. Welcome aboard.


And what has that to do with built in AoE Salvagers and Tractor beams for the Marauder?


I'm not keen on the idea of AoE salvagers. However tractor beam usage definitely needs a look. Maybe some salvage drone bonus after that?

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Mole Guy
Rage Confederacy
Dracarys.
#4089 - 2013-09-25 11:33:03 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Sigras wrote:

Who on earth said you HAD to use bastion mode for PvP? If you're stupid enough to dorp into bastion mode in that situation you deserve to lose your ship.


- Of course you don't have to, but why it is there? I think it is introduced just because to give marauders a pvp ability. Am I wrong?
- Did I look like I have been so eager to transform into something stationary for Pve? Don't rush on me mate, I'm not the one putting bastion mode on Marauders.
- For pve, since shield boost bonus is now gone, wouldn't it be harder for a mission runner ship to run missions?
- For pvp, you fit mwd, and then mjd. Let me guess there is also a webber since there is a web bonus and a cap booster. There is a *chance* that you can transform into bastion or using mjd will take you out of logi range, so you also got a shield booster there. Now you got only one slot to fit resist module. You've got no shield boost bonus. Unless you transform into bastion, you don't get your resists. Oh forgot warp disruption. Webbed guy ran off. Oh, forget the web, put a warp disruptor, but a needles web bonus? Put both, you have no resist before transform. See what I am arguing about? Not well designed for any situation. I love to use sentence "you will be dead yesterday", which suits well here. With a price tag of billions, something is not fitting in this scene.

Sigras wrote:

There are so many things wrong with this I dont even know where to start . . .

First of all, again why do you HAVE to fit a MJD to your PvE setup? If it benefits you, then do it; if it doesnt benefit you, then dont.

Second, what in the holy LOL why are you running a fleet for level 4 missions? It is far more effective to run individual level 4s separately.

Lastly; how is it even conceivable that you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur? I tank level 4s in a shield tanked dominix, and in fact, I tank level 4s in an armor tanked domi with 3 damage mods! If you have to resort to using sniper tactics to stay alive in a level 4, youre seriously doing something wrong.


We are on the same side, but you're looking from a different angle.

- I don't want to fit MJD for sure. But my shield boost bonus is gone, I really need to get away. I was arguing with some other people about mjd usage and why I shouldn't use it. That was the point I was arguing. I don't want it. I am also arguing it is so needless on a Marauder that bonus "slot" shouldn't be wasted with mjd.

- This is a Marauder rebalancing thread, so I'm arguing about bonuses, which is perfectly normal for here. The case "why should I fit" or "why shouldn't" I fit is another subject. Again, I'm just proposing that something more relevant to mission runners instead of mjd bonus. There are ships already you can do better with mjd, in case your dominix example is also used by me in previous posts. Taking off shield boost bonus means "don't be in heat of battle from now on, you have to get away with that ship". Which also means "you are sniper from now on"

- Fleet for lvl 4 missions? Effectiveness? Man, this is not job to be done. This is a game. I'm here to have fun. The time when you run Serpentis Extravaganza for 1000th time, you will start looking for variations. I was just enjoying with my friends. This is the way I enjoy the game. Blacks and whites here. Not a good subject to argue about.

"you are having trouble tanking level 4s in a vargur"
- I've never said this. However, I said that anyone will be in trouble when:
a- When the boost bonus is gone in conjunction with;
b- Maintaining close combat with fireworks exploding around.

You have to get away with the new ship design. That was my problem. This is the Nth time I'm telling this. There are ships where you can snipe, and as your Dominix where you station in 100km away and drop sentries. Their playstyle is good for their role, why put marauders in that style?

Proposed changes doesn't reflect PvE playstyle for marauders. I don't know if I could show the point.

as far as ive seen, they added the mjd bonus. you dont have to use it. but...if you did, you could jump every minute for better position. a paly with mega pulse in bastion can have up too 120km range with scorch and nasty tracking. by the time someone gets there, yer ready to jump away and do it again.

now, if u want close in, dont use bastion. throw some tackle on it, enjoy the 400k EHP and shoot all kinds of crap to death.
the mjd, especially for missions running, will be a freakin handy thing. you can bounce out of range of the rats. then reign death and destruction down on them. for fighting sanctum rats, warp in at 50k then jump strait up. everything will be dead before you start taking damage.

pointed by sleepers or incursion rats and being killed? mjd and warp. they dont scram, they point. mjd works through that.
align towards the warp point, mjd and warp. once u land, hit warp and yer gone.

the marauder play style you are asking about is about dictating range. i will mjd out and start firing back at you. you have the choice to try to make it to me through mega pulse 100km, or warping. if u do make it, i will mjd back or somewhere else.
the ability to jump 100k every minute is a scary thing.
Mole Guy
Rage Confederacy
Dracarys.
#4090 - 2013-09-25 11:39:56 UTC
i still think marauders need speed. they "maraud".
get in fast and get out.


self sufficient or help take care of their group.
they need scan probe bonuses to be able to fit em and use em right.
less hp would be ok, if we had speed and smaller sig radius. kinda midway between bs and bc sig.
the good resists, repping bonus.
it needs a longer tractor beam too. out to 50k or more. maybe 200% bonus.
a bonus to the % of salvage drones would be kewl as hell. would be a nice niche for them.
drones should be good enough to salvage sleeper bs wrecks. not after 50 cycles, but in short order.
Shivanthar
#4091 - 2013-09-25 11:49:23 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:

as far as ive seen, they added the mjd bonus. you dont have to use it. but...if you did, you could jump every minute for better position. a paly with mega pulse in bastion can have up too 120km range with scorch and nasty tracking. by the time someone gets there, yer ready to jump away and do it again.

now, if u want close in, dont use bastion. throw some tackle on it, enjoy the 400k EHP and shoot all kinds of crap to death.
the mjd, especially for missions running, will be a freakin handy thing. you can bounce out of range of the rats. then reign death and destruction down on them. for fighting sanctum rats, warp in at 50k then jump strait up. everything will be dead before you start taking damage.

pointed by sleepers or incursion rats and being killed? mjd and warp. they dont scram, they point. mjd works through that.
align towards the warp point, mjd and warp. once u land, hit warp and yer gone.

the marauder play style you are asking about is about dictating range. i will mjd out and start firing back at you. you have the choice to try to make it to me through mega pulse 100km, or warping. if u do make it, i will mjd back or somewhere else.
the ability to jump 100k every minute is a scary thing.


I agree with you @scary part. You can find a lot of creative uses with that. As I posted at least thrice, you can do that with a sentry drone ship. I also have a Typhoon Fleet Issue that has nearly NO tank and also has a mjd on it. It doesn't tank, because there is no incoming damage. :) But that is a playstyle of a sentry drone ship/sniper. I wouldn't bother with getting loot with that ship.

However, while they are adding bonus to web/mjd, they're removing shield boost buff. So, without sacrificing my applied damage, I don't know how will I reach 400k ehp you mentioned? O.o My boost bonus will be crap, so I will need a SBA in order to compansate, which will cause me leaving my TP, again reducing my applied damage.

So, if balancing marauders means making them a good long range sniper, so be it. I will adapt to that. I just tried to tell there are already available ships for that role, exluding mjd bonus. Other than that, I don't see any "improvement" on my mission running with current proposal.

All I see is a nerf (at least for Vargur).

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Shivanthar
#4092 - 2013-09-25 11:55:32 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
i still think marauders need speed. they "maraud".
get in fast and get out.
...
it needs a longer tractor beam too. out to 50k or more. maybe 200% bonus.


Hehehehehe :)
*LOL*

You would be suprised that there are people around here who would try to maraud with trebuchet. This is a deja'vu I'm experiencing!

Try looking at this post I already posted, I believe you'll laugh hard ;)
Then, follow the replies and my posts again. You can create a storyline from the posts.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3637471#post3637471

Have Fun!

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4093 - 2013-09-25 12:34:37 UTC
CCP could you please make any form of statement? Either:

1) Nice ideas we are listening to your feedback.

or

2) We have decided, further discussion is pointless.

We deserve at least that.
Nyvi Ane
Perkone
Caldari State
#4094 - 2013-09-25 12:52:20 UTC
i know aoe tractor beam and salvage give a great advantage for a expensive PVE ship with many prerequistes.

Please understand u can switch only one factor in eve for pve isk/time. You choose a pirate BS (kill faster then a marauder) if you don't salvage that is great , if you want salvage take a noctis that is right.

But what the hell you do in a marauder less dps and speed to the one site. And against a noctis? Nobody loot a site or mission in a marauder with 3 Slots (2-1) that is horrible. The micro managmnet cost you time and this is not funny.

And now? Make a Marauder to a stone an loose isk/hour becaus u fly a mini cap. With a horrible Loot/Salvage option.
Yes this new advantge is a must have ....
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4095 - 2013-09-25 13:21:02 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
i still think marauders need speed. they "maraud".
get in fast and get out.
...
it needs a longer tractor beam too. out to 50k or more. maybe 200% bonus.


Hehehehehe :)
*LOL*

You would be suprised that there are people around here who would try to maraud with trebuchet. This is a deja'vu I'm experiencing!

Try looking at this post I already posted, I believe you'll laugh hard ;)
Then, follow the replies and my posts again. You can create a storyline from the posts.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3637471#post3637471

Have Fun!



Please, find me a definition ANYWHERE that specifies that Marauders are a fast moving force.
Well, at least anywhere apart from writing your own definition.

Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations.
They've been used as hit and run tactics to steal valuables to try and shut down their opponents supply lines.
They've been used in castle sieges.
They've been used to raise villages, including slaughtering the people.

By definition, anyone who enters somewhere in search of loot or booty is a Marauder.

I can break into your house, and I am a Marauder.
I can rob a bank, and I am a Marauder.
I can siege FT Knox, and I am a Marauder.

All of these require different speeds and tactics, and the last actually would require heavy armor and vehicles.
This isn't exactly fast, but it's still Marauding.


And yes, if I come to your castle with the intent of looting, then reguardless of what weapons I bring to get into your castle, I am still a Marauder... Even if I bring a trebuchet..
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#4096 - 2013-09-25 13:30:52 UTC
According to our representative CSM Malcanis, the changes made to marauders have "obvious implications" that "will be made explicit soon enough".

That sounds like iteration 2 is what CCP actually intends to release... Ugh

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#4097 - 2013-09-25 13:51:59 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
According to our representative CSM Malcanis, ...


Malcanis post to be found here and next post in that thread.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#4098 - 2013-09-25 14:23:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Joe Risalo wrote:


Please, find me a definition ANYWHERE that specifies that Marauders are a fast moving force.
Well, at least anywhere apart from writing your own definition.

Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations.
They've been used as hit and run tactics to steal valuables to try and shut down their opponents supply lines.
They've been used in castle sieges.
They've been used to raise villages, including slaughtering the people.

By definition, anyone who enters somewhere in search of loot or booty is a Marauder.

I can break into your house, and I am a Marauder.
I can rob a bank, and I am a Marauder.
I can siege FT Knox, and I am a Marauder.

All of these require different speeds and tactics, and the last actually would require heavy armor and vehicles.
This isn't exactly fast, but it's still Marauding.


And yes, if I come to your castle with the intent of looting, then reguardless of what weapons I bring to get into your castle, I am still a Marauder... Even if I bring a trebuchet..


Just breaking into a house doesn't make you marauder, sieging a castle doesn't make you a marauder. Marauding is the practise of a sustained campaign of hit and run, looting and pillaging usually behind enemy lines though doesn't have to literally be as part of a war - it could be outlaws or even post the break up of the rule and law of a civilisation.

By the very nature of most of those tasks and the requirements of not being caught operating in a foreign or hostile landscape theres a requirement that the force be mobile, agile and to some extent fast moving.

I really really wish CCP would rename these away from being marauders and give us something more inline with the name of marauders as its obvious now that marauders was just a cool name slapped on a line of ships.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4099 - 2013-09-25 14:38:57 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


Please, find me a definition ANYWHERE that specifies that Marauders are a fast moving force.
Well, at least anywhere apart from writing your own definition.

Throughout history, Marauders have been used in many different situations.
They've been used as hit and run tactics to steal valuables to try and shut down their opponents supply lines.
They've been used in castle sieges.
They've been used to raise villages, including slaughtering the people.

By definition, anyone who enters somewhere in search of loot or booty is a Marauder.

I can break into your house, and I am a Marauder.
I can rob a bank, and I am a Marauder.
I can siege FT Knox, and I am a Marauder.

All of these require different speeds and tactics, and the last actually would require heavy armor and vehicles.
This isn't exactly fast, but it's still Marauding.


And yes, if I come to your castle with the intent of looting, then reguardless of what weapons I bring to get into your castle, I am still a Marauder... Even if I bring a trebuchet..


Just breaking into a house doesn't make you marauder, sieging a castle doesn't make you a marauder. Marauding is the practise of a sustained campaign of hit and run, looting and pillaging usually behind enemy lines though doesn't have to literally be as part of a war - it could be outlaws or even post the break up of the rule and law of a civilisation.

By the very nature of most of those tasks and the requirements of not being caught operating in a foreign or hostile landscape theres a requirement that the force be mobile, agile and to some extent fast moving.

I really really wish CCP would rename these away from being marauders and give us something more inline with the name of marauders as its obvious now that marauders was just a cool name slapped on a line of ships.


I don't think things need to go drastic. A harder hitting ship like a HAC, good mobility, great local tank, the ability to get in close, deal a ton of quick damage, then get out. The balance point should be that it has a hard time sustaining its tank for long periods like a buffer ship with incoming reps, but its short term burst tank is excellent.

The first iteration was good for this, second less so, and all the first proposal needed was increased damage while in bastion mode.
Nyu Kaminari
Doomheim
#4100 - 2013-09-25 15:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyu Kaminari
I am ready to be giggled at here but, why the hell not? Blink

99.5% Reduction of the power grid needs and 50% CPU reduction of the needs of Capitol Tractor Beams !!??

200+ KM pull range? Someone is getting mad! :P

Aside from that, I'll explain what little logic I have on this and why I think it should be there.

*Loot mission objective wrecks before those snotty little ninjas get there when you are using a sniping set-up.
(You are a marauder pilot. You've earned it.)

*Shove all your pretty little wrecks into a nice pile so you can drop your shiny Noctis on top of it with 8 Salvager II's

*Make people rage in large gangs when all their floaty valuables drift away from their corpsicle at mach speed.

*keeping that CPU high so that people are not so inclined to use all 4 of them (post-bastion)

*Still makes the Noctis relevant due to it's salvaging bonuses and not every noctis pilot will have a marauder

*Keeps it's full effectiveness during 1 or even 2 uses of the MJD

*Because I am weird

-Had to edit this because I forgot about targeting range. Increase that by 35% per level of marauder also please!
* Marauders CAN fire way beyond their targeting range *