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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Aldanar Vorlax
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3981 - 2013-09-23 07:58:35 UTC
Considering alot of people don't like the immobile effect from bastion and would be too crippling in fleet fights, id propose the following changes to how bastion works:

1) Keep the ships current speed/mass/agility outside of bastion mode

2) When Bastion is deployed, instead of being immobile it reduces your speed/mass/agility to the levels suggested in this re-balance.

3) Keep EWAR immunity bonus except for disruptors and scrams which can point them while still in bastion.

What this will give you is a ship which while in bastion is still mobile but slower. Yes they can be pointed while in bastion however as it currently stands with bastion they'll point you as soon as your out of bastion anyway, this is also to stop you insta-warping as soon as bastion finishes. But atleast your moblie enough to give you a chance of killing any ships pointing you or getting out of range. Sorry but close to 1 Billion isk ships should not be immobile target dummies.
Just Lilly
#3982 - 2013-09-23 08:29:57 UTC
CCP Ytterbium, report!

Blink
Powered by Nvidia GTX 690
Nyu Kaminari
Doomheim
#3983 - 2013-09-23 08:48:48 UTC
I am Thinking this:

Convert the Tier 3 BS hull into a PvP marauder. There are no tech II versions as of yet. Use this hull with the bastion modules and whatever bonuses CCP uses in correspondence with the community.


+7.5 % extra armor amount per level of marauders to Amarr and Gallente tier 3 Hulls
+7.5 % extra shield amount per level of marauders to Caldari and Minmatar tier 3 Hulls

This is under the assumption that these ships will be fielded in large fleets with logistics Shocked

Abbadon Hull: -10% Damage to overheated energy weapon and all armor modules per level of marauders.

Rokh Hull: -10% Damage to overheated hybrid weapons and all shield modules per level of marauders.

Hyperion Hull: +10% to the control range and tracking speed of sentry drones per level of marauders.

Maelstrom Hull: + 5% to agility and velocity per level of marauders.


ROLE BONUS: Able to use Bastion Modules. (The effects of the modules should be changed depending on the Hull.)

//Please feel free to add constructive criticism or help elaborate on this Idea if you like it.\\ Roll
Cade Windstalker
#3984 - 2013-09-23 08:51:06 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
They are receiving buff for PvP, but Paladin and Vargur get nerf for PvE. Since I already have a ton of different ships for PvP I strongly support the PvE faction (though I do PvE like 1/10 of my EVE time Lol). Besides T2 resists for PvP are good for buffer tank, but since you cant be remotly repped... of course no one forces me to use bastion, yep. Also no one forces me to use siege on my revelation... who needs like 840% dps incerase...


A better comparison to what I'm going for would be the Triage Module on a Carrier. There are fits that use it and then there are fits that don't. That provides more meaningful choices and trade-offs than a "you must fit this or the ship sucks" module. Carriers have exponentially more fitting options and uses than Dreadnaughts right now which have essentially two fits that aren't "lol-fits". Cap/Pos bashing fits and Dread-Blapp fits. The difference between the two is generally at most a couple of module slots.

Overall we shouldn't be comparing anything that's well balanced and fun to use to the Dreadnaught which has major balance issues within its class and is more specialized than even most rebalanced T2 hulls.

Gigi Barbagrigia wrote:
Good post.

My suggestion would be to just drop Bastion idea on existing T2 BSs, fiddle with attributes a bit (plenty of good suggestions in this thread) and then take another BS hull, fit Bastion module (in preferably 2 flavours) and design new T2 BS around that. Surely art department can't be that overtaxed not to be able to slap some dark paint on 4 hulls. Thus we get "rebalanced" Marauders and new ship in winter expansion. Even if new T2 BS won't be perfect, and we all know it won't be P, the above still looks better on the PR side than leaving us with some forced hybrid nobody will be happy about.

PVE will retain its 1.5 bil toy and PVP would get possibly decent ~1 bil one. Come up with a name, an associated skill for hulls, 2 Bastion skills and you've also created some (small) additional ISK sink.


Thanks.

That said, I disagree. Generally the art pipeline is one of the most stressed at any game studio. There's always more stuff to do.

In the specific case of Eve there are more ships to V3 (pretty sure we're not done with that yet), T2 hulls to revamp and/or add customization to, and probably a dozen other things we don't know about yet.

Overall I disagree with the premise that Bastion should be moved to another set of hulls. It works with the tank-focus of the current Marauders and gives them something unique and fun. Plus no one that I've seen suggest this has suggested what to do with the current Marauders beyond "make them a bit better" which is ambiguous at best.

Also the current Marauders cost about 800 mil to 1 bil for the hull.

chaosgrimm wrote:
Most ppl using marauders for missions don't need the application. Frigs are usually popped in a volley or two anyway. The frigs you can't get are dealt with by drones b4 everything else is dead or you are ready for the gate.

More or less, the holdups for mission runners are usually travel time and general kill times where you already have high application, which is why I believe the many suggestions involve speed and damage increases. Given the train time, ppl who have them want significant pve advantages over their pirate counterparts. EW immunity is nice for a few select missions, but tanking changes and speed nerfs are meh.


I disagree with your initial premise and feel I've provided fairly effective evidence as to why this is the case, at least for turret based ships. Between the current tendency of frigates to go after drones and the large proportion of frigates and cruisers in many Level 4 missions, never mind scan-sites, the ability to more effectively remove frigates and cruisers can make a large difference in mission completion times.

As has been repeatedly brought up increased tank allows for increased damage and damage application since you can trade tank modules for other things like utility, damage application, projection, and damage increases.
Cade Windstalker
#3985 - 2013-09-23 09:04:33 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Black Ops ships are not designed to fight in front line. And their dps application is nowhere near any marauder in its current state. Moreover their speed bonus is only unique amongst other cloaked ships. From pve perspective, you generally warp onto a beacon, which de-cloaks you. Since you'll get targeted in most missions, re-cloaking and gaining speed bonus would be a pain. This statement alone will nullify its use of pve and its speed advantage...
Two of the pirate battleships are "faster" than any other battleship, but by no means they haven't got any *bonus* to the speed.
By proposing bonus speed, I mean a real bonus to a mwd, ab or raw speed, where you see a transformed marauder bs leaving others in the dust. There are no other ships in this role (including all proposed bonuses from bastion mode).

Edit: I still have been doing missions with my Vargur today. The most common problem is to get that damn wreck @ 61km. If you know what I mean (I hear this same problem from any other marauder pilot out there repeatedly)... In order to get a good tank&dps application together, I needed to fit AB instead of Mwd. This toy seriously needs bonus to its tractor beam range. Other than that, I don't see anything else to be adressed, if not counting missing TP bonus.

I know some marauder pilots want to bring their havoc into pvp battlefield. In that case, ccp please, don't brake my tank, don't break my dps... Do what you want, I give up with my meaningless proposals for you :P, just please this is the only damn toy I'm playing this game with a great pleasure and enjoyment. *Tears*


First off I was actually referring to the skill bonuses on the Sin and Panther. 5% Agility and Velocity respectively, in addition to the overall 25% per level cloaked velocity bonus. Plus the hulls are extremely speedy compared to others of their faction with the Panther coming in at 146m/s before bonuses, the Sin and Redeemer at 117m/s each, and the Widow at 106m/s. A couple of these are faster than any of their T1 or T2 counterparts (Pirate Faction not withstanding) and those tend to be the more popular ones.

The problem of them not being combat effective ships is definitely something that CCP is not happy with. This thread by Jayne Fillon has some great sources on what CCP have already said about the Black-Ops class and some initial musings on potential fixes.

Personally I find the idea of a transformed BS moving around *faster* to be somewhere between stupid and silly and certainly not in keeping with other existing game mechanics.

CCP's logic on not wanting to have a ship that's 100% pure PvE and nothing else is pretty good for the Marauders. The objective here was never to make them PvP god-ships (like some people want) but to make them viable for niche PvP applications and better in PvE. Overall, compared to the Pirate Battleships the tractor bonus is hardly worth mentioning.

Shivanthar wrote:
Yes, this was my point :)

I did some calculations. Since it is early morning right now, my head hasn't booted up fully yet. But as far as mjd travel time/time spend ratio goes on @ lvl 5, creating a bonus to increase MWD bonus by %1000 and including some agility after transforming into "X mode", does what ccp's design wants to do on Marauders anyway.

MJD @ lvl 5, posts you to 100km in 6 seconds which is something ~14000 meters/sec

My test is on Vargur, so it goes with 163m/s raw speed and 1138 m/s with mwd @ lvl 5. In order to make that 1138 close to 14000, boosting mwd speed bonus by %1000 does the trick. But agility is also needed to fully get that potential.
Cut the mwd cycle time and cap usage in somewhere half, so it is now more controllable. During X mode, since vargur's weapon systems are working half, damage output is halved and internal tracking is not working well on that speed so tracking is also halved.

What this does?
pve: tons of cool stuff, very enjoying mission running.
pvp: during fleet battles, ppl need to think twice on getting their ally pilots' wrecks faster, look WHO is coming to maraud those wrecks. Including its cargo bay size, now, I call this as a unique role for marauders on the battlefield.

Becoming a perfect raider for wrecks, in-game description for marauders now become a reality: "... Nevertheless, these thick-skinned, hard-hitting monsters are the perfect ships to take on long trips behind enemy lines."

See?

Just brainstorming ;)


I'm going to assume you mean a +1000% velocity bonus, aka multiplying the current velocity bonus of ~500-615% by three rather than multiplying it by 10...

Oh, no, wait you really meant 1000% increase. Okay then...

The ways this can be abused are too many to name but I'm going to list off the ones that come to mind immediately:


  • Hilariously abuse-able bump ship.
  • Uncatchable kiting Battleship
  • Able to almost completely ignore bubbles unless scrammed and use of the MWD + cloak trick means that the ship will likely be out of the bubble in one cycle anyway.


Seriously, not in any way balanced. There's a reason we have a MJD on a cooldown instead of a hilariously oversized MWD module.
Cade Windstalker
#3986 - 2013-09-23 09:05:45 UTC
Aldanar Vorlax wrote:
Considering alot of people don't like the immobile effect from bastion and would be too crippling in fleet fights, id propose the following changes to how bastion works:

1) Keep the ships current speed/mass/agility outside of bastion mode

2) When Bastion is deployed, instead of being immobile it reduces your speed/mass/agility to the levels suggested in this re-balance.

3) Keep EWAR immunity bonus except for disruptors and scrams which can point them while still in bastion.

What this will give you is a ship which while in bastion is still mobile but slower. Yes they can be pointed while in bastion however as it currently stands with bastion they'll point you as soon as your out of bastion anyway, this is also to stop you insta-warping as soon as bastion finishes. But atleast your moblie enough to give you a chance of killing any ships pointing you or getting out of range. Sorry but close to 1 Billion isk ships should not be immobile target dummies.


This isn't going to be enough of a trade-off to counter-balance gaining EWar immunity, which is a really powerful ability. In order to get something powerful like that you need to give up a lot in trade-offs.
Aldanar Vorlax
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3987 - 2013-09-23 09:18:40 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Aldanar Vorlax wrote:
Considering alot of people don't like the immobile effect from bastion and would be too crippling in fleet fights, id propose the following changes to how bastion works:

1) Keep the ships current speed/mass/agility outside of bastion mode

2) When Bastion is deployed, instead of being immobile it reduces your speed/mass/agility to the levels suggested in this re-balance.

3) Keep EWAR immunity bonus except for disruptors and scrams which can point them while still in bastion.

What this will give you is a ship which while in bastion is still mobile but slower. Yes they can be pointed while in bastion however as it currently stands with bastion they'll point you as soon as your out of bastion anyway, this is also to stop you insta-warping as soon as bastion finishes. But atleast your moblie enough to give you a chance of killing any ships pointing you or getting out of range. Sorry but close to 1 Billion isk ships should not be immobile target dummies.


This isn't going to be enough of a trade-off to counter-balance gaining EWar immunity, which is a really powerful ability. In order to get something powerful like that you need to give up a lot in trade-offs.


Yeah, your right, still think making it an immobile weapons platform isnt the answer though.
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#3988 - 2013-09-23 09:34:03 UTC
Even though the T2 Resists are really nice I'd still like to see at least the Hull Resistance remain on the Bastion Module.
Since you can't abort the cycle and you also can't move, that makes you really vulnerable to getting alpha'd.

Even if you check your d-scan there is a chance that within those 60+aligntime seconds you'll lose your ship to some nados, just because you weren't able to warp away or even align due to being immobile.

I think they deserve that little bit more protection against alpha.

Regards

My Condor costs less than that module!
Kane Fenris
NWP
#3989 - 2013-09-23 10:05:45 UTC
TehCloud wrote:

Even if you check your d-scan there is a chance that within those 60+aligntime seconds you'll lose your ship to some nados, just because you weren't able to warp away or even align due to being immobile.


as i understand it you can not move but you can align
Cade Windstalker
#3990 - 2013-09-23 10:14:06 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
TehCloud wrote:

Even if you check your d-scan there is a chance that within those 60+aligntime seconds you'll lose your ship to some nados, just because you weren't able to warp away or even align due to being immobile.


as i understand it you can not move but you can align


If you aren't moving then there is no difference in align time based on direction of your align.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3991 - 2013-09-23 10:42:34 UTC
I still see a problem with 8 high slots in pvp, even if you have a bastion module.
Look, right now marauders have 3 utility highs.
With these changes they'll either have 4 utility highs with t2 resists, or 3 utility highs, t2 resist, ewar immunity, increased rep, and greater range.

They should not be given another high slot. They should have to choose between bastion and utility with 7 high slots, as bastion is both a defensive and an offensive utility.

That said, I do still feel that extra slot can be applied elsewhere.
As I stated before, the Golem currently has 7 mids.
It has a bonus to TP effectiveness, but still requires at least 2 target painters to apply effective dps against even a battleship using cruise missiles.
It will also have a MJD bonus. This is 3 of the 7 mid slots already.
Now, assume it retains the web bonus, that is 4, leaving 3 mid slots for a cap booster and/or tank.
This is why the Golem currently under performs in PVE.
You either can't tank all that well, you cap out quickly, you have crap damage application, and/or you have to slow boat to the warp gate.
Adding an extra mid would certainly help alleviate this issue and would allow the golem to be more competitive in pvp and pve.
As it sits right now, the only good way to fly a golem in both situations is stationary platform with cruise missiles and hard tank...
DSpite Culhach
#3992 - 2013-09-23 11:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: DSpite Culhach
I had a "for laughs" fit Golem I was going to go flying after skilling into it properly with a mate in missions where he flies a Sentry Domi, just to burn up T2 missiles cheaply and run an AB cap stable doing like just under 1 km a sec, just to balance his "I'll stay right here, they can come get me" attitude. Crap fit that has no tank and dies in a fire if caught? Sure, but STILL tons more fun then flying the current iteration in this forum, I mean, I'd ACTUALLY have to "fly" it, not Bastion up and pretend I'm another Domi. EDIT: WE both would have MJD's :) I'm not THAT suicidal.

I'd say the hull(s) need more stuff that makes them unique (assuming non PvP, cause it's a ***** to balance) :

* 4 turrets that behave as 8? Checked already; cheaper T2 and faction missiles use ... err ... 3 turrets that hit like 9? Ok, ok, never mind.
* Hull that gives special MJD abilities? God yes, but current ideas seem off.
* Some EWar immunity? Perfect for those rats that annoy other hulls, just make it NPC EWar only if need be.
* NPC aggro management? People already use painters/ecm to pump up aggro, why not boost that, making drones last longer, especially if you nerf drone bays. Players will STILL shoot your drones anyway.
* Larger immunity effects from things the Sleepers use, like neuts, or even having reduced/being immune to the effects of Wormholes Enviromental effects.

I'm not saying these are "good ideas", I'm trying to point out you could stack these old/new type of things on a Marauder hull, and make it unique to fly and not really effect when actual human players want to blow you the hell up. My ideas are lame-ish, but surely CCP could bang out a few better ones for more interesting PvE action. Someone said "Capital Tractor Beam" ... oooh, that would be cool.

Well, I think CCP is doing what it should do right now, and that is getting worried that they will create some abomination that people will wreck havoc with and are trying to play it safe. I'm just worried it will make the hull so weird that it will be used even less.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Apogeddon
Big Bad Bulls
#3993 - 2013-09-23 11:16:30 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Some peps forget about important thing. Second iteration was a nerf to nerfed marauders... why?

By removing 37.5% rep bonusAttention

You will say: "bu bu but they give full T2 resists". But there's two problems with that:

1. T2 resists are worse than 30% res bonus on bastion to all damage types, and they were applied even to hull Attention with first bastion version, golem gets at least those 30% to EM, paladin gets better for em, therm, but now it has terrible resists, totally useless for PVE.

2. Let's take golem, without bastion, firstly if You fight against EM damage type rats You tank them a lot better thanks to 37.5% rep bonus, now You got only little better thermal res, so not even close good to first version... Same for paladin.

Im still voting for making marauders biggest raw DPS BS's, and Pirate BS's to be fastest, biger buffer, and better aplication BS's.

For PVE You don't need incredible tank, or PVP modules, so lacks in application bonuses should be counter by fitting slots with those modules (TC's etc), and for PVP thanks to bonuses to application pirate BS's could use slots for PVP modules.


Another Bastion idea:


  • it buffs You'r DPS
  • gives EWAR immunity
  • gives omni resists but not so much, let's say 20%

  • allows remote reps...

but...

  • completely turn off local reps for entire duration of the cycle


    • Could be cool, will You risk incoming DPS for Your DPS boost? Will Your buffer hold on for 1min when You will kill NPC's faster? Will You risk? Of course You can bring friend with logi, and that's good, afterall it's MMO game. Multiboxing? Ok, more cash for CCP thanks to another subscribed account.



    That's something good, approved +1.

    Someone say it will nerf solo but i say no, without bastion they will work just like now (just bring them back rep bonus, and give more speed they have even before nerf).
    This Bastion gives possibilities, it buffs PVE in many scenarios for solo, but not everytime (so its not OP). In my opinion it's good, it wont make switching bastion everytime, over and over again so player will not get bored with it. And it connects player to ship even more, You need to know Your ship, how much it can take, it creates better player-ship connection, and bringing something new to missions, because You must learn them from scratch to be able to know when You can enter bastion.
    Ralph King-Griffin
    New Eden Tech Support
    #3994 - 2013-09-23 11:20:04 UTC
    Apogeddon wrote:
    marVLs wrote:
    Some peps forget about important thing. Second iteration was a nerf to nerfed marauders... why?

    By removing 37.5% rep bonusAttention

    You will say: "bu bu but they give full T2 resists". But there's two problems with that:

    1. T2 resists are worse than 30% res bonus on bastion to all damage types, and they were applied even to hull Attention with first bastion version, golem gets at least those 30% to EM, paladin gets better for em, therm, but now it has terrible resists, totally useless for PVE.

    2. Let's take golem, without bastion, firstly if You fight against EM damage type rats You tank them a lot better thanks to 37.5% rep bonus, now You got only little better thermal res, so not even close good to first version... Same for paladin.

    Im still voting for making marauders biggest raw DPS BS's, and Pirate BS's to be fastest, biger buffer, and better aplication BS's.

    For PVE You don't need incredible tank, or PVP modules, so lacks in application bonuses should be counter by fitting slots with those modules (TC's etc), and for PVP thanks to bonuses to application pirate BS's could use slots for PVP modules.


    Another Bastion idea:


    • it buffs You'r DPS
    • gives EWAR immunity
    • gives omni resists but not so much, let's say 20%

    • allows remote reps...

    but...

  • completely turn off local reps for entire duration of the cycle


    • Could be cool, will You risk incoming DPS for Your DPS boost? Will Your buffer hold on for 1min when You will kill NPC's faster? Will You risk? Of course You can bring friend with logi, and that's good, afterall it's MMO game. Multiboxing? Ok, more cash for CCP thanks to another subscribed account.



    That's something good, approved +1.

    Someone say it will nerf solo but i say no, without bastion they will work just like now (just bring them back rep bonus, and give more speed they have even before nerf).
    This Bastion gives possibilities, it buffs PVE in many scenarios for solo, but not everytime (so its not OP). In my opinion it's good, it wont make switching bastion everytime, over and over again so player will not get bored with it. And it connects player to ship even more, You need to know Your ship, how much it can take, it creates better player-ship connection, and bringing something new to missions, because You must learn them from scratch to be able to know when You can enter bastion.


    eeeeeeeehhw, no.

    Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

    =]|[=
    Rek Seven
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #3995 - 2013-09-23 11:30:44 UTC
    Jasper Blanch wrote:
    I think that there have been some really interesting ideas proposed and I suspect at least a few of them are being vetted for next proposal and I'm interested to hear what CCP has to say about some of them. While I understand that it is a difficult job to balance the game, especially something as high SP as marauders, since it's been a couple of weeks, some real feedback would be appreciated at this point.

    Barring that, even an acknowledgement of the community input - so much as "we're workign on it, please be patient" - would be appreciated at this point.

    Thanks for all your hard work, CCP et al. I think we'd all like to hear from you.


    They already said that they are listening to the community but won't be updating/commenting on the marauder changes until we get closer to the winter update.

    The wishlist is pretty much complete...
    Bastion Arzi
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #3996 - 2013-09-23 11:48:49 UTC
    does the increase in range when in bastion mode apply to all modules? so scrams, disruptors, webs etc? or just weapons?
    Maximus Aerelius
    PROPHET OF ENIGMA
    #3997 - 2013-09-23 11:48:58 UTC
    For those asking for an update yadder yadder yadder perhaps catching this will help:

    Maximus Aerelius wrote:
    #3858 Posted: 2013.09.19 12:19

    Watch CCP Guard and the EVE development team live on twitch.tv at 20:00 UTC on September 26, 2013, and discover details about our next free expansion coming this Winter 2013!

    [b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #3998 - 2013-09-23 12:46:47 UTC
    Maximus Aerelius wrote:
    For those asking for an update yadder yadder yadder perhaps catching this will help:

    Maximus Aerelius wrote:
    #3858 Posted: 2013.09.19 12:19

    Watch CCP Guard and the EVE development team live on twitch.tv at 20:00 UTC on September 26, 2013, and discover details about our next free expansion coming this Winter 2013!


    Yes, everyone knows. Quoting yourself for the I-told-you-so... It was hard to fail as you constatnly got that message logging in.

    To the tacklerangebonus in bastion: It currently doesn't benefit and most likely shouldn't. Having a 25% rangebonus would mean that they receive something like 23-24km cold webrange, using 80% webs. Ofc including CS V skirmishlinks with imp, not like you'd need a web for PvE anyways.
    chaosgrimm
    Synth Tech
    #3999 - 2013-09-23 12:49:30 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    chaosgrimm wrote:
    Most ppl using marauders for missions don't need the application. Frigs are usually popped in a volley or two anyway. The frigs you can't get are dealt with by drones b4 everything else is dead or you are ready for the gate.

    More or less, the holdups for mission runners are usually travel time and general kill times where you already have high application, which is why I believe the many suggestions involve speed and damage increases. Given the train time, ppl who have them want significant pve advantages over their pirate counterparts. EW immunity is nice for a few select missions, but tanking changes and speed nerfs are meh.


    I disagree with your initial premise and feel I've provided fairly effective evidence as to why this is the case, at least for turret based ships. Between the current tendency of frigates to go after drones and the large proportion of frigates and cruisers in many Level 4 missions, never mind scan-sites, the ability to more effectively remove frigates and cruisers can make a large difference in mission completion times.

    As has been repeatedly brought up increased tank allows for increased damage and damage application since you can trade tank modules for other things like utility, damage application, projection, and damage increases.


    I lol'd at this. If you are trolling I applaud you. Otherwise you should reconsider the viability of your mission fits / general mission strategy. Frigs are not a big deal on marauders / mission runner toons. Again, most r no more than 1 volley, some r 2, and very very few are actually r required to be killed by drones even on turret based marauder hulls. Also, additional lol for whining about cruisers.

    The lvl 4 missions I can think of off the top of my head are Buzz Kill and maybe room 1 of Vengeance. Both r no trouble not only to complete, but steamroll.

    Concerning your point about tank, even without significantly sacrificing dps for tank when fitting (by this I mean a potential additional dmg / dmg app mod offers so little it might as well be replaced with a tanking mod), your tank is still enough to handle all 4s. On missions which can break your tank, they won't b/c of your gank. This also contributes to the support of a direct dmg inc over dmg application.

    Might I ask you to post your marauder mission fit?
    Metal Icarus
    Star Frontiers
    Brotherhood of Spacers
    #4000 - 2013-09-23 14:01:11 UTC
    I would like to see the bastion module be useful for PVP as well. Maybe, it would give a bonus to remote reps and it would only be able to rep other ships in bastion mode.

    .... Don't get bumped? In granting it the ability rep others in bastion mode, instead of an ewar immunity, maybe it should increase the sensor strength and lock range.