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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3281 - 2013-09-09 12:29:42 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Wedgetail wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:

With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.

If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply.


this is a factor with just about any minmatar t2 shield tank - you can tank a minmatar t2+ ship on a single invuln because of how balanced the resistance profile is (the opposite is true for minmatar t2+ armor tanks, which have a native weakness to expl. kin)


Yeah. The Golem at least has to burn 2 slots or 1 slot plus rig filling that EM hole which makes it a little more balanced compared to the Paladin. The Kronos can fit DCU2, EANM2, and a EEXM2 and reach respectable omni-tank. It bugs me to no end that these hulls will now require a 4 slot tank or space bling to efficiently do mission content. And the bastion module will be no help at all in fending off a gank attempt now that you have all this bling just to do what you did prior to the rebalancing.


What the hell are you doing with your missions boats O.o. EM-Rigs? Please tell me you are kidding..
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3282 - 2013-09-09 12:36:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Iome Ambraelle
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Wedgetail wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:

With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.

If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply.


this is a factor with just about any minmatar t2 shield tank - you can tank a minmatar t2+ ship on a single invuln because of how balanced the resistance profile is (the opposite is true for minmatar t2+ armor tanks, which have a native weakness to expl. kin)


Yeah. The Golem at least has to burn 2 slots or 1 slot plus rig filling that EM hole which makes it a little more balanced compared to the Paladin. The Kronos can fit DCU2, EANM2, and a EEXM2 and reach respectable omni-tank. It bugs me to no end that these hulls will now require a 4 slot tank or space bling to efficiently do mission content. And the bastion module will be no help at all in fending off a gank attempt now that you have all this bling just to do what you did prior to the rebalancing.


What the hell are you doing with your missions boats O.o. EM-Rigs? Please tell me you are kidding..


No, I don't put EM rigs on my mission boats. What I'm talking about is the fitting options available to players that are trying to fit a balanced omni tank on the currently suggested marauder hulls. The Golem has a significant EM resist hole. The only way to fill that is with an active hardener, a passive amplifier, or a rig. Obviously the active or passive modules are the best options especially since rigs are the only damage application slots available for missiles currently. However, the EM rig is still an OPTION to accomplish the goal of filling the resist hole. There's a difference between discussing the options available and recommending some subset of those options. I'm doing the former of those activities here.

The point I'm trying to make is that the Golem, Kronos, and Paladin hulls will HAVE to fit a 4 slot tank if they want a balanced omni profile while the Vargur can get away with just 3.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Afru Tolm
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3283 - 2013-09-09 12:50:58 UTC
Does this mean the ships are getting new hulls? or are the same hulls being kept and modified for the deployable mode?

Obviously this is the most important change happening here.

Also if they are now uber tanking machines can I now solo level 5s in them?

CCP Ytterbium I needz to know!!!
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3284 - 2013-09-09 12:52:30 UTC
BS with 2 sets of small drones only? Not a lot.
I would let a bandwith/bay of 50/75 to 50/100 on these ships. It is not so much...
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3285 - 2013-09-09 13:03:28 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Wedgetail wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
The other thing that doesn't sit well with me about the T2 resists is that it is really picking winners and losers when it comes to the various racial hulls. Here's the resist numbers for a T2 resist Vargur with a DCU2, 2x Invl 2:

With T2 resists the hull practically becomes immune to laser fire. The increase in Thermal resist provides a whopping 45% reduction to incoming Thermal damage compared to the TQ version. That covers a significant number of NPC profiles, player weapon systems, and selectable ammo types. With the second version of the proposed changes it will boost some marauders for PVE and PVP (limited application here) and make the others not only less effective than their brothers, their TQ versions, but significantly less attractive than the T1, faction, and pirate hulls for missioning purposes.

If you have to enter bastion mode and have to fit faction/deadspace modules to effectively tank the missions and still be efficient in your racial marauder, you might as well fit those modules to a pirate hull because you'll have nearly the same tanking potential and significantly more raw DPS to apply.


this is a factor with just about any minmatar t2 shield tank - you can tank a minmatar t2+ ship on a single invuln because of how balanced the resistance profile is (the opposite is true for minmatar t2+ armor tanks, which have a native weakness to expl. kin)


Yeah. The Golem at least has to burn 2 slots or 1 slot plus rig filling that EM hole which makes it a little more balanced compared to the Paladin. The Kronos can fit DCU2, EANM2, and a EEXM2 and reach respectable omni-tank. It bugs me to no end that these hulls will now require a 4 slot tank or space bling to efficiently do mission content. And the bastion module will be no help at all in fending off a gank attempt now that you have all this bling just to do what you did prior to the rebalancing.


What the hell are you doing with your missions boats O.o. EM-Rigs? Please tell me you are kidding..


No, I don't put EM rigs on my mission boats. What I'm talking about is the fitting options available to players that are trying to fit a balanced omni tank on the currently suggested marauder hulls. The Golem has a significant EM resist hole. The only way to fill that is with an active hardener, a passive amplifier, or a rig. Obviously the active or passive modules are the best options especially since rigs are the only damage application slots available for missiles currently. However, the EM rig is still an OPTION to accomplish the goal of filling the resist hole. There's a difference between discussing the options available and recommending some subset of those options. I'm doing the former of those activities here.

The point I'm trying to make is that the Golem, Kronos, and Paladin hulls will HAVE to fit a 4 slot tank if they want a balanced omni profile while the Vargur can get away with just 3.


Oh well, that sounds better. Anyway - I think the golem will be able to get away with an EM ward and an Invul + Shield Booster for lv 4's. Dmg output is enough, and ~67 % em should be fine, considered that you will have huge thermal resists - if poop hits the fan, use bastion.

However, it won't be enough to switch from my CNR. CNR has enough tank and enough application (+ more damage through sentries), and the CNR has way more buffer..

No reason to use the Golem, unless you want to fly with torps.
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3286 - 2013-09-09 13:04:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckett Firesnake
Well , , With a Kronos 425 rail T2 guns, I can hope to have about 700 DPS at 67.5km with Antimatter T1 ammo in my optimal range while in Bastion Mode?

I find it not bad at all.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3287 - 2013-09-09 13:04:34 UTC
Afru Tolm wrote:
Does this mean the ships are getting new hulls? or are the same hulls being kept and modified for the deployable mode?

Obviously this is the most important change happening here.

Also if they are now uber tanking machines can I now solo level 5s in them?

CCP Ytterbium I needz to know!!!


Probably not for the paladin, was likely taken into consideration when designing the current hull, bit yes, definitely the burning question.

The first iteration, probably could have, not so shure about the current one, though its anyones guess as to what the next will look like

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#3288 - 2013-09-09 13:08:43 UTC
Lord Vimuhla wrote:
HAIKU


command ships now crap
please keep your sticky fingers
off our marauders





does work with HACs too, deimos and vaga are now good for the scrapeyard, nothing to be done with them anymore
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#3289 - 2013-09-09 13:10:15 UTC
so the marauders will basically be the same ship in 4 different skins?
Striscio
Doomheim
#3290 - 2013-09-09 13:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Striscio
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Afru Tolm wrote:
Does this mean the ships are getting new hulls? or are the same hulls being kept and modified for the deployable mode?

Obviously this is the most important change happening here.

Also if they are now uber tanking machines can I now solo level 5s in them?

CCP Ytterbium I needz to know!!!


Probably not for the paladin, was likely taken into consideration when designing the current hull, bit yes, definitely the burning question.



You are probably right across all the class considering that also Tempest hull got a complete new model some time ago too.

Nova Satar wrote:
so the marauders will basically be the same ship in 4 different skins?


Some additional fins and antennas, probably things like that, doesn't look like they really need a complete different hull to "transform" (We don't even know how the animation is intended, they might simply open some sort of flap while spreading outside the hardpoints)



EDIT: i'm more worried about stats than graphic atm...
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3291 - 2013-09-09 13:20:47 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Oh well, that sounds better. Anyway - I think the golem will be able to get away with an EM ward and an Invul + Shield Booster for lv 4's. Dmg output is enough, and ~67 % em should be fine, considered that you will have huge thermal resists - if poop hits the fan, use bastion.

However, it won't be enough to switch from my CNR. CNR has enough tank and enough application (+ more damage through sentries), and the CNR has way more buffer..

No reason to use the Golem, unless you want to fly with torps.


That's been exactly what I've been saying. Swapping T2 resists for the old bastion resists and the local rep bonus pretty much makes most of the marauders far less attractive than the faction and pirate BS varieties for both PVE and PVP. The TQ and first proposal versions at least provided a boost to mission efficiency compared to the other hulls.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#3292 - 2013-09-09 13:28:07 UTC
I don't think the combination of web strength bonus and bastion mode is a good idea.
What is supposed to stop this behemoth but a bigger number of the very same class?

Normal battleships always have to be afraid of small vessels that manage to get under their guns. Imo it's bad enough that you can hardly counter a Vindicator/Kronos/Paladin now, because they easily create a zone-of-frigate-death around them with their superior webs.
Now you introduce MORE of these hulls with stronger webs AND you also give them E-War immunity in bastion mode!

Plus:
If I fit Scram+dual web on a marauder and somehow get close to SOMETHING, I can just enter bastion mode while tackling the enemy ship.
Even if the web bonus is "just" 7,5% (=37,5% on lvl V), this still means that 2 webs can slow a ship down by 95%!!! (1 web 60%*1,37= 82,5%, 2 webs 82,5% and 0,87*82,5%=72% -> remaining speed = 17,5%*28%=4,9%)

Which means: enemy is tackled, the marauder can't move for a minute, but the enemy won't ever get away with only 5% speed.
Take any ship with 500m/s (I consider that rather fast for any cruiser-sized ship). It will be reduced to 25m/s and not be able to get even HALF WAY out of scram range within one minute.
Not to mention that the E-War immune supertanking marauder big guns is still sitting next to the nearly unmoving target.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3293 - 2013-09-09 13:33:44 UTC
Edward Olmops wrote:
I don't think the combination of web strength bonus and bastion mode is a good idea.
What is supposed to stop this behemoth but a bigger number of the very same class?

Normal battleships always have to be afraid of small vessels that manage to get under their guns. Imo it's bad enough that you can hardly counter a Vindicator/Kronos/Paladin now, because they easily create a zone-of-frigate-death around them with their superior webs.
Now you introduce MORE of these hulls with stronger webs AND you also give them E-War immunity in bastion mode!

Plus:
If I fit Scram+dual web on a marauder and somehow get close to SOMETHING, I can just enter bastion mode while tackling the enemy ship.
Even if the web bonus is "just" 7,5% (=37,5% on lvl V), this still means that 2 webs can slow a ship down by 95%!!! (1 web 60%*1,37= 82,5%, 2 webs 82,5% and 0,87*82,5%=72% -> remaining speed = 17,5%*28%=4,9%)

Which means: enemy is tackled, the marauder can't move for a minute, but the enemy won't ever get away with only 5% speed.
Take any ship with 500m/s (I consider that rather fast for any cruiser-sized ship). It will be reduced to 25m/s and not be able to get even HALF WAY out of scram range within one minute.
Not to mention that the E-War immune supertanking marauder big guns is still sitting next to the nearly unmoving target.


This was one reason a lot of us found the first one preferable, while they would have been " I can't believe its not a capital" they did not have the web's

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3294 - 2013-09-09 13:38:12 UTC
Edward Olmops wrote:
I don't think the combination of web strength bonus and bastion mode is a good idea.
What is supposed to stop this behemoth but a bigger number of the very same class?

Normal battleships always have to be afraid of small vessels that manage to get under their guns. Imo it's bad enough that you can hardly counter a Vindicator/Kronos/Paladin now, because they easily create a zone-of-frigate-death around them with their superior webs.
Now you introduce MORE of these hulls with stronger webs AND you also give them E-War immunity in bastion mode!

Plus:
If I fit Scram+dual web on a marauder and somehow get close to SOMETHING, I can just enter bastion mode while tackling the enemy ship.
Even if the web bonus is "just" 7,5% (=37,5% on lvl V), this still means that 2 webs can slow a ship down by 95%!!! (1 web 60%*1,37= 82,5%, 2 webs 82,5% and 0,87*82,5%=72% -> remaining speed = 17,5%*28%=4,9%)

Which means: enemy is tackled, the marauder can't move for a minute, but the enemy won't ever get away with only 5% speed.
Take any ship with 500m/s (I consider that rather fast for any cruiser-sized ship). It will be reduced to 25m/s and not be able to get even HALF WAY out of scram range within one minute.
Not to mention that the E-War immune supertanking marauder big guns is still sitting next to the nearly unmoving target.



exactly the reasoning behind my earlier proposal to shift the focus of bastion from defense to offense, as it is ccp seems to want these things to be unassailable,

keep Immunity to ECM, tracking disruption, painting and sensor damps, keep vulnerability to tackle, remove stasis web bonus for shield boost amount remove remote assistance and reduce mobility to nothing (beyond a burst of the MJD)- this is my defense in bastion mode

my offense:

reduce spool of MJD, increase damage of guns, reduce range and lock range by half


why? so i can lock myself down, jump in at an ewar ship/logi cruiser /something deadly threatening my fleet and kill it at the expense of myself, hopefully, i am fast enough to come back out of bastion in time to get help from my allies, if not I will die and hopefully, i've done what i had to do in order to give my allies the opening they need to win/runaway/whatever - make the module function much like a spear head one very powerful charge.

most marauders can fire out to 100km + as they are now, a reduction of 50% range means you're stuck to under 50, but can still hit anything in that range - damage increase is to ensure you can hammer whatever it is before it breaks range, and if not it'll run/warp from your guns, removing itself from grid, mission still a partial success, you then are stuck where the MJD lands you until your timer runs clean, and it'll be up to your fleet mates to keep you safe until then.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#3295 - 2013-09-09 13:39:50 UTC
Edward Olmops wrote:
I don't think the combination of web strength bonus and bastion mode is a good idea.
What is supposed to stop this behemoth but a bigger number of the very same class?

Normal battleships always have to be afraid of small vessels that manage to get under their guns. Imo it's bad enough that you can hardly counter a Vindicator/Kronos/Paladin now, because they easily create a zone-of-frigate-death around them with their superior webs.
Now you introduce MORE of these hulls with stronger webs AND you also give them E-War immunity in bastion mode!

Plus:
If I fit Scram+dual web on a marauder and somehow get close to SOMETHING, I can just enter bastion mode while tackling the enemy ship.
Even if the web bonus is "just" 7,5% (=37,5% on lvl V), this still means that 2 webs can slow a ship down by 95%!!! (1 web 60%*1,37= 82,5%, 2 webs 82,5% and 0,87*82,5%=72% -> remaining speed = 17,5%*28%=4,9%)

Which means: enemy is tackled, the marauder can't move for a minute, but the enemy won't ever get away with only 5% speed.
Take any ship with 500m/s (I consider that rather fast for any cruiser-sized ship). It will be reduced to 25m/s and not be able to get even HALF WAY out of scram range within one minute.
Not to mention that the E-War immune supertanking marauder big guns is still sitting next to the nearly unmoving target.




You just gonna need something able to tank the incoming DPS/win the cap warfare and thats about it. You can accomplish this by a tripple rep dominix/hyperion or w/e floats your boat (Im taking the Kronos as an example, which I consider the best PvP Marauder after the changes). Nobody said BSs should be killed by everything that comes close to it.

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3296 - 2013-09-09 13:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
That's just a pirate ship on steroids

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3297 - 2013-09-09 13:45:36 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Edit



that's all marauders have always been, pirate battleships are t 1.5 marauders, when people use them as such - anything apirate battleship can do a marauder in the current iteration (on TQ) can match or better, and the things it can't match it makes up for by doing somethign else through utility slots, like remote repair or capacitor warfare the pirate battleships can't carry, they're very good ships when the pilots using em use em for what they're good at :)
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#3298 - 2013-09-09 13:48:47 UTC
Wedgetail wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Edit



that's all marauders have always been, pirate battleships are t 1.5 marauders, when people use them as such - anything apirate battleship can do a marauder in the current iteration (on TQ) can match or better, and the things it can't match it makes up for by doing somethign else through utility slots, like remote repair or capacitor warfare the pirate battleships can't carry, they're very good ships when the pilots using em use em for what they're good at :)

Anyone got that graph handy?

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3299 - 2013-09-09 13:53:59 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Wedgetail wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Edit



that's all marauders have always been, pirate battleships are t 1.5 marauders, when people use them as such - anything apirate battleship can do a marauder in the current iteration (on TQ) can match or better, and the things it can't match it makes up for by doing somethign else through utility slots, like remote repair or capacitor warfare the pirate battleships can't carry, they're very good ships when the pilots using em use em for what they're good at :)

Anyone got that graph handy?


would be convenient wouldn't it? :D get on the horn to fox four and assign him a few fit warriors with someone versed in fleet command, you'll have your graphs sir..oh yes YOU SHALL HAVE YOUR SHINY PICTURES! XD
Pi Selina
Midnight Oil Irregulars.
#3300 - 2013-09-09 13:55:49 UTC
Striscio wrote:

Some additional fins and antennas, probably things like that, doesn't look like they really need a complete different hull to "transform" (We don't even know how the animation is intended, they might simply open some sort of flap while spreading outside the hardpoints)


"Removal" of some "bitz" would also be nice,.. The "Forecastle" on the Golem,.. yeah I'm talkin' about you, you ugly little verticle mess of hull aesthetics destruction,.. begone,..

I can't find a decent pic of it that isn't huge,.. but you know the one I'm talkin' about,.. the thing is absolutely fugly,.. and in no way compliements the "lines" of the hull in any way.