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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Author
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2821 - 2013-09-06 09:05:37 UTC
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Onictus wrote:


I also think they dicked the dog pretty well with the HACs in general.

I can't see where they are going, other than a ship that PvPs worse than the ENTIRE T1 line up, and PvEs worse that most of the T1s and 3/4 of the pirate ships with the fourth being debatable......all of which are comparable in price.


My cerb v your caracal, let's do this


provide real numbers and reasons how and why is your cerb so good and why would you win... and if you lose to caracal that has buddy warping in @ you then how much you lose. vs. going to pick up another caracal

if it's new to you also then real eve pvp is not alliance tournament.

and now replace that caracal and cerb with mega and kronos... see what happens.


You are quite clearly awful at pvp and shouldn't comment on it.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2822 - 2013-09-06 09:08:33 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
You are quite clearly awful at pvp and shouldn't comment on it.


you just contribute so much that it's just unbearable...
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2823 - 2013-09-06 09:10:21 UTC
The Spod wrote:
The four utility high slots are too much. Three to four neutralizers for station games, four slot spider tank... Those alone with the t2 resists are worth the isk and sp requirements.

I kind of feel that their sensor strength still presents a problem for RR gang (if you actually field a marauder gang) as even brand new folks in BBs and probably even Griffins can pose a threat to chains... And probably anything they do. YMMV on how your opponent's ability to field zerg support fleet can affect your actual gameplay. For one, those will have to stay at range (probably even much further than web range), where they may be vulnerable to bastion'd fleet member. Although the latter will become rather vulnerable in RR gang and ECM locusts may be easy to replace, depending on environement...
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2824 - 2013-09-06 09:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
Kane Fenris wrote:
1.)
in incursions you have dedicated web (lokis)

2.) you are horribly wrong
MJD cant be used SCRAMED only when disrupted.

so id like to make my case for +2 warp strengh:

it would make the ship harder to catch which is of use in pvp and pve and it will make the effort to catch it be more in line with the ship cost.
you either need 3 str faction scram or 2x scrams which is by no means uncommon or imnpossible.

so lets look at the gain
you would be able to move arround more freely in low (and partly null)
it helps with the ability to run lvl5
it even may be of use in incursions
the use in pvp is obvious too (and id rather have the tr than a bonused web cause even with bonused web chances are you cant kill or cant kill fast enough that damn interceptor and by all means it shouldnt be so easy to hold a ship with that price tag.)


NO!

1. it's vindis
2. NO **** really? thats why im proposing marauder bonus if MJD fitted then MJD immune to scram's.

+2 str is just too OP.


lokis.. oh my god, cant get over it.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2825 - 2013-09-06 09:23:27 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

I'm actually rather fond of the current Ishukone paint job.

I'd love a Rokh in this colour scheme. A nickel-brass Rokh would be awesome.

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2826 - 2013-09-06 09:24:41 UTC
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:

and now replace that caracal and cerb with mega and kronos... see what happens.



Dis Mega is sooou gunna get its butt handed 7o
Cade Windstalker
#2827 - 2013-09-06 09:43:20 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

I'm actually rather fond of the current Ishukone paint job.

I'd love a Rokh in this colour scheme. A nickel-brass Rokh would be awesome.



I'm not quite as much a fan of the Ishukone Rokh as I am some of the others. Though the Kaalakiota Rokh is so much want it's not funny.
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2828 - 2013-09-06 09:46:58 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:

and now replace that caracal and cerb with mega and kronos... see what happens.



Dis Mega is sooou gunna get its butt handed 7o


in AT scenario yes.. in eve real PVP - the fight problably wont happen.
Cade Windstalker
#2829 - 2013-09-06 09:55:30 UTC
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:

and now replace that caracal and cerb with mega and kronos... see what happens.



Dis Mega is sooou gunna get its butt handed 7o


in AT scenario yes.. in eve real PVP - the fight problably wont happen.


Eve is a big place, the only things that will never happen are those out-right prevented by game mechanics.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2830 - 2013-09-06 10:01:44 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
I have a really good idea: instead of going forward with the proposal in the OP, reboot the entire T2 battleship lineup.

First, CCP should take the work that they've done on the proposed Marauders (the fancy new animations, siege-module-but-not concept, etc), ditch the MJD bonus and all pretenses of PvP usefulness, add a small damage bonus, further-reduce their mobility (make them handle more like a little capital ship than a battleship) and rename the ships "Vanguards" or something and play up the fact that they were designed specifically for destroying pirate encampments or whatever in their description. Go hog-wild and make the ultimate PvE battleship, while trading off qualities that would render them useful for PvP (mobility, buffer tank, ability to receive remote reps, etc) in exchange. Pick a specialization for this T2 hull and stick to it.

Then, having actually created a specialized T2 BS hull for PvE, take the Marauder class title, take re-skins of the formerly-tier 3 battleships, and make a class that's actually useful for PvP in hostile space. Make these ships similar to what blackops battleships are currently, but without the jump portal generators and with an obvious combat focus instead of the hodgepodge of attributes that current blops bs have:

*snip*

CCP, if you want the T2 battleships to really be awesome then this is what you need to do! Don't be fooled by just a single ship split to pvp and pve roles but make it right and look at the whole picture of T2 battleships.

I mean i can't believe this but i'm agreeing with a goon too! Twisted
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2831 - 2013-09-06 10:05:55 UTC
The Spod wrote:
The four utility high slots are too much. Three to four neutralizers for station games, four slot spider tank... Those alone with the t2 resists are worth the isk and sp requirements.

If bastion is introduced the resist bonus should go there. Otherwise dump the ewar immunity for something more geared towards the marauder roles of t2 resist. Or, get rid of the MJD bonus and make them slow bricks.

T2 = specialized
Now, marauder is "specialized for seven intense roles" I.e. Generalized:
• brick t2 resist
• good damage
• MJD blink
• EWAR immunity
• 4 utility highs
• salvaging on go
• target painting (golem)

Pick 2-3 and work on it.
EWAR immunity and t2 resist
Good damage, MJD blink
Good damage and t2 resist

Those are enough to build three different t2 battleships. Do not throw it all in one generalized mess basket.




That is called specialization in genretics.... its the new market trend :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Lukas Rox
Aideron Technologies
#2832 - 2013-09-06 10:08:02 UTC
Elzon1 wrote:


Add a bonus to marauders in bastion mode:

Target spectrum breakers don't effect host ship when bastion module is active. With that a marauder can have a massive tank without getting alphaed.

But really the only thing that will get marauders on the battlefield more often would be a buff to insurance payouts for said ships.


Excellent idea. It could be a bit OP though in a gatecamp scenario with several other Marauders.

Proud developer of LMeve: Industry Contribution and Mass Production Tracker: https://github.com/roxlukas/lmeve | Blogging about EVE on http://pozniak.pl/wp/

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2833 - 2013-09-06 10:08:36 UTC
HolidayDerp derf wrote:
Game Breaking
ASB = 2k hp/cycle
add 100%bonus and crystals as well as a booster and you can get 4k-6k hp/cycle



You mean as in you need to risk gettign to 10% of your shield before activate the repair or you will waste half of your repair cycle? NOT SO OP.....


NUmber crunshing is not same as in game.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

To mare
Advanced Technology
#2834 - 2013-09-06 10:17:09 UTC
5th turret/launcher (as fittings to go with)
Tech1 BS sensor strenght
T2 resist

dont touch anything else.


marauders are fixed and useful.


why the **** CCP have to complicate things when is so simple?
Kane Fenris
NWP
#2835 - 2013-09-06 10:24:05 UTC
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
1.)
in incursions you have dedicated web (lokis)

2.) you are horribly wrong
MJD cant be used SCRAMED only when disrupted.

so id like to make my case for +2 warp strengh:

it would make the ship harder to catch which is of use in pvp and pve and it will make the effort to catch it be more in line with the ship cost.
you either need 3 str faction scram or 2x scrams which is by no means uncommon or imnpossible.

so lets look at the gain
you would be able to move arround more freely in low (and partly null)
it helps with the ability to run lvl5
it even may be of use in incursions
the use in pvp is obvious too (and id rather have the tr than a bonused web cause even with bonused web chances are you cant kill or cant kill fast enough that damn interceptor and by all means it shouldnt be so easy to hold a ship with that price tag.)


NO!

1. it's vindis
2. NO **** really? thats why im proposing marauder bonus if MJD fitted then MJD immune to scram's.

+2 str is just too OP.


lokis.. oh my god, cant get over it.


where did i say that only lokis were used? in vanguards they are common....

and you realize general mjd scram imunity is way more op than +2 str?
it would mean that if you dont get killed before you align you ALWAYS get away!
how is that less op than simply +2 str
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2836 - 2013-09-06 10:37:37 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
1.)
in incursions you have dedicated web (lokis)

2.) you are horribly wrong
MJD cant be used SCRAMED only when disrupted.

so id like to make my case for +2 warp strengh:

it would make the ship harder to catch which is of use in pvp and pve and it will make the effort to catch it be more in line with the ship cost.
you either need 3 str faction scram or 2x scrams which is by no means uncommon or imnpossible.

so lets look at the gain
you would be able to move arround more freely in low (and partly null)
it helps with the ability to run lvl5
it even may be of use in incursions
the use in pvp is obvious too (and id rather have the tr than a bonused web cause even with bonused web chances are you cant kill or cant kill fast enough that damn interceptor and by all means it shouldnt be so easy to hold a ship with that price tag.)


NO!

1. it's vindis
2. NO **** really? thats why im proposing marauder bonus if MJD fitted then MJD immune to scram's.

+2 str is just too OP.


lokis.. oh my god, cant get over it.


where did i say that only lokis were used? in vanguards they are common....

and you realize general mjd scram imunity is way more op than +2 str?
it would mean that if you dont get killed before you align you ALWAYS get away!
how is that less op than simply +2 str


Mjd's aren't immune to scrams, they are immune to long points (Sorry if i'm missing something from an earlier arguement)

Also anyone who thinks these won't be used in pvp because the blobby nature in eve will make them impractical from soloing is awful.

A battleship with t2 resistances that gets a bonus to MJD's will become the go to fleet ship of any alliance with any amount of isk between their hands. Should rather try to expand on the MJD thing somehow rather than giving them t2 resists.. its just unimaginative and bad.

Give them the ability to use target spectrum breakers without harsh penalties or something. Just.. anything other than this.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kane Fenris
NWP
#2837 - 2013-09-06 10:54:20 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Mjd's aren't immune to scrams, they are immune to long points (Sorry if i'm missing something from an earlier arguement)

Also anyone who thinks these won't be used in pvp because the blobby nature in eve will make them impractical from soloing is awful.

A battleship with t2 resistances that gets a bonus to MJD's will become the go to fleet ship of any alliance with any amount of isk between their hands. Should rather try to expand on the MJD thing somehow rather than giving them t2 resists.. its just unimaginative and bad.

Give them the ability to use target spectrum breakers without harsh penalties or something. Just.. anything other than this.


yep you are missing something
but you seem to habve a somekind simmilar view on the matter.

to make things clear:

i proposed to give the ship +2 str for stated reasons which is i my eyes more desireble than the web bonus but that is just my point of view...

while he said this was just dumb cause with his proposed fix of makeing mjds on marauders immune to scrams would be way better while my +2str proposal would be op Roll
which is opposite around cause it would basically make the ship uncatchable

about the fleet thingy
my point of view is the ships would suffer more in general with the webs than they would gain
reasoning here is rather complex but i try it in a short version.
haveing web bonus would end up either:
weakening the fit cause youll have 1-2 mids with webs but in most cases would not end up in a large gain (in fleets youll have already ships that do the job)
while haveing no webs and a stronger fit would end up in a useless bonus.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2838 - 2013-09-06 10:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
I'm really concerned about adding more arbitrary timers into the game.

Bastion mode is fixed at 60 seconds. Why 60? Not 58, or 144?

Furthermore, it is not affected by ship type (race), stats, fitting, pilot skillpoints and RL skills. Who needs those fitting options like nanos and inertstabs? Doesnt matter if you watch local for neuts, because it only depends on luck - either you're near the end of your siege or in the beginning.

Also, CCP - nerf the sentry drone carriers. Because they are way superior to anything you're suggesting.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2839 - 2013-09-06 11:09:39 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Here's a hint for your departmental dialogue: do what I suggested like 50 pages ago. Redo the whole T2 battleship selection with a PvE-specialized BS; an actual PvP / direct combat-focused Marauder; and a revised, more stealthy / support-oriented blackops battleship. It fits your design philosophy (T2 ships specialized for one role) and actually has a hope of making the various crowds that have been posting in this thread happy. Whatever you do, DO NOT try and make a combination PvP/PvE ship and DO NOT end up making a "HAC" version of battleships that would make a viable fleet PvP ship.

E: I guess it was more like 70 pages ago. Here's a link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3559765#post3559765


PvP/Direct Combat focused -> Pirate Battleships

Defensive/PvE focused -> Marauders

Speed/Stealth -> Black-Ops Battleships

It makes very little sense to throw a PvP focused ship into a PvE focused ship-line. Even less to make a T2 ship that's flat better than Pirate Faction.



A good PVP ship will be a good PVE ship as long as its role on PVP is brute force oriented. So there is nothign wrong...

In fact what is wrong is the ABSURD idea of focusing an ICONIC spot as of the T2 battleship for a PVE ONLY ship.



In fact Pirate battleships are more PVE capable than the marauders! So there is not evne need for Marauders to keep a PVE orientation. They should be made into Strong T2 Combat ships, oriented to some sort of vbrute force ( as in the bastion model supports) so that they can be used on PVE AND PVP.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Aeronite
Prolific Enterprises
#2840 - 2013-09-06 11:14:45 UTC
Web bonus for golem is a joke since the ship will never get in range to web anything kinda like the curent paladin.Give it another bonus any bonus just not web