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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2581 - 2013-09-05 15:48:26 UTC
I think we need to see some Marauder animations. Some REAL ones this time...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#2582 - 2013-09-05 15:50:11 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Late comer to this thread (been inactive for a while) but these proposed changes look good to me. I still don't see any PvP use for the paladin but the Vargur and Golem should be fairly monstrous if you're willing to spend the isk.

PvE wise, they should all be usable. I see the greatly enhanced tank making them a viable solo lvl5 option. The Vargur can already pull it off but these changes should allow the others to as well. I admit I will miss the web bonus on the Paladin, it is very handy and currently the only thing it has going for it over a navy geddon.

The MJD bonus is an interesting choice but honestly it feels more like a desperate attempt to make that module useful rather than an attempt at sensible bonuses for the ship. It doesn't serve a PvE purpose and for PvP, you wouldn't take a ship like this into a 50+ man fleet where such a device might be handy. Marauders are a squad level ship at most due to price and RR concerns. In such smaller gangs, you will be scrambled thus making the WJD useless.


the mjd is the best thing since sliced bread for pve.

warp in to a sanctum at 50km, mjd up 100k. now, when folks warp to the sanctum u are at, they are way below you. unleash drone hell from a snake or domi.

plexs in null require room to room. go in, jump up out of range, send missiles or sentry drone lubbin from up on perch out of range of their guns. if they get close, scoup to drone bay, mjd again. if you angle it right, you dont have to travel a bit..just jump up, then back down to gate.

i ran lev 5's with a cnr and an mjd. cruise from 125k, very little resistance/tank needed (because i wasnt there). the neut hurt, but i dealt with it.

use mjd to jump to the sleiper rats in worm holes. once you get your anchor, warp to him, then jump 100km and bypass the frigs and cruisers and jump strait in the lap of the bs's. exploit their lack of tracking by webbing and orbiting the bs out of bastion mode.

most people only see 2d. some see in the 3rd dimension. me, i see in 4d. i can see (and have used) the mjd for all kinds of purposes.

pvp..
i warped to the gate at 50k from my pos. i dropped my sentries then mjd'ed through the gate and was at 50k on the other side. thats torp range for my rattlesnake. when bad guys came in, they see juicy and came after me. i started blasting them with drones from behind em and shot torps. when more showed up. i aligned to the gate (which my pos was on the other side) and i hit "return to drone bay". sentries got ready to be scooped. i hit mjd which put me full throttle. i jumped (because i was pointed and they started in on my tank) and landed on my drones (which auto scooped) and i hit warp to pos. it all happened in 2 seconds. jump, scoop, warp to safety.
the snake was beat up a little, but once shields charged, you couldnt tell.

be imaginitivy. you can use these for alot of reasons.
gate camping. drones sit still and you just jump around within range and keep killin.

you can stay 100k off the gate in a random direction. if someone comes in you wanna tackle, then jump on em. if not, you have time to get away...
Unseen Spectre
Shadow Eye Ops
#2583 - 2013-09-05 15:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Unseen Spectre
I just did a quick comparison of my PVE Golem setup for missions and the proposed changes to the Golem. The current setup involves a cap stable permaboost to shields and cruise missiles.
Discounting drones, the dps is the same and the tank is actually better. However, for some reason, CCP has decided to nerf the cap recharge on the Golem so it is no longer cap stable. This can be solved by upgrading the rigs to T2s and it will be cap stable again.
From my personal style of play, I can only say that I can only say that with high probability the web bonus is useless and I will never use it. The ship is simply too slow, and in terms of tank it is too costly to make it mobile. The bastion module, however, is more useful for me since I ussually bombard the mission rats from long range and remain quite immobile for the most.
I know that my perspective is limited to PVE and that the web bonus quite definitely have good application in PVP (but I still think the ship is too slow), but personally I would like to see a more useful bonus such as the shield boost.
Furthermore, I do not think that the HP nerf is warranted, but that is just my opnion.
Either way, it will be impossible to satisfy everyone, but there is still a long way to go, so we will have to see what we end up with. I hope that CCP will re-think the ships to make the bonuses more coherent instead of contradictionary such as short range web vs. slow ship (increase web range???). However, there is quite some time for CCP to re-think this several times before the Winter expasion :).
Otto Weston
Pod Goo Extraction Agency
#2584 - 2013-09-05 15:56:24 UTC
CCP - WHY?!?

You make a good module to make a ship worth playing, to make it sound fun for those guys who like tanking (BASTION)... and then you go and gimp the ******* thing (Not 30% bonuses, removing Local rep bonuses etc.).

I just began training for Marauders since I saw the original rebalance thread, and guess what?! You then nerf it, tyvm CCP.. for wasting my time and money now. 
Everything's Air Droppable at least once.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2585 - 2013-09-05 15:59:39 UTC
Lair Osen wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.

It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP.
I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there.



its PVP GAME!!!

What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP


Mining Barges and Industrials are even more useless for PVP :O
Better get rid of them immedietly



That si why in my post i said.. Al l ships with WEAPONS... not all ships....

reading is good...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2586 - 2013-09-05 16:09:47 UTC
Nosum Hseebnrido wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck,

I play this game for 7 years now "7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level" is a dumbest bonus in this entire game. I was finally happy that you decide to remove it from Kronos and Palladin with were NEVER use stasis webifier at all, because it's just pointless to use them with large turret. It's better to fit Tracking Computers instead, but CCP say "noo, it's wonderful bonus, let's give it to all Marauders, they deserve for it".

Undone this change and get rid of this ridiculous bonus once for all ..


CCP call's utilizing the bastion's mass penalty to collapse whs abusement; I call it ingenuity.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Jasper Blanch
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2587 - 2013-09-05 16:11:03 UTC
I'm getting some really mixed signals here.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
... with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:
...

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level.


First, webs aren't needed, and even the 90% webs two of the marauders currently have aren't enough. Now, here are some reduced efficiency webs that I've already said you don't need and aren't good enough. Oh and just to make things fair, we're adding them to the other two marauders for ***** and giggles.

I really would rather see some kind of bonus to the effectiveness of target painters rather than webs, personally. Target painters have the advantage of being effective from beyond a maximum of 13km (more frequently 10km) and fit the snipe them down playstyle that seems to be being encouraged here much more adequately.

And I really would rather see the active tank bonus returned, but with t2 resists I can see the rationale behind their removal.
Roy Hawkinz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2588 - 2013-09-05 16:17:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Hawkinz
Let me say how they must become. Don't destroy the marauders make them cool.

Each bastion mode should make the ship transform into a static howitzer platform. Golem: cruise/torp based etc. Race based special.

With a 200% increasement in dmg while offering up some tank like 30/50%. The ships are already good tanked so that don't need to by higher but make them how they should by.

Else please forget the hole bastion module I don't see me using it. Thanks.
Gal Mart
#2589 - 2013-09-05 16:24:20 UTC
Stopping Marauders at 4 now. I'll just stick to Navy/Pirate versions if this iteration goes live.
Lixia Saran
Perkone
Caldari State
#2590 - 2013-09-05 16:25:22 UTC
Can we at least see what they'll look like?

Also, will they blend?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2591 - 2013-09-05 16:31:16 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...

and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those.


Yes because 90% kin resistance helps me defend against sansha amd blood raiders right?


Then choose appropriate hull... It's not that hard.


right so first iteration I did not have to choose. .. and now...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#2592 - 2013-09-05 16:31:25 UTC
Hahahaha

oh man what a hilarious thread and turn of events

ytterbium you should quit doing games and jump into politics, you'd be great

No sig.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#2593 - 2013-09-05 16:32:20 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...

and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those.


Yes because 90% kin resistance helps me defend against sansha amd blood raiders right?


Then choose appropriate hull... It's not that hard.


i would agree, but that would mean changing weapons systems as well. Personally i dont think its a huge deal though, the resists i mean.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#2594 - 2013-09-05 16:35:36 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Hahahaha

oh man what a hilarious thread and turn of events

ytterbium you should quit doing games and jump into politics, you'd be great

The thought had crossed my mind that hes ******* with the lot of Ye for ***** n giggles

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#2595 - 2013-09-05 16:37:42 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
I find it superfluous to compare marauders which are going threw a balance phase to Pirate Battleships which have not.

How about lets balance Marauders to ships that have been balanced so that means tech I bs's.

lets compare marauders to Pirate Battleships when the Pirate Battleship thread gets opened in two weeks.


Well have to see. Raw DPS and damage projection are 2 different means to an end. As it stands Pirate faction ships have both. My Mach and RS can rain down fire and sulfur far away, one stronger closer, and one farther away but still both more than the Vargur will be able to do total. So that will mean that they will need to nerf them further to bring them in line. That will utterly suck. It will be the third nerf to the Mach since I started flying it. On a side note, I build pirate faction ships, nerfing the hulls yet again will nerf my income twofold yet again.

The RS needs a mild buff to be in line with its brethern, so buffing that will make it as good as a Mach at what the Mach does. But since the RS is a "Swiss Army Knife" or "Jack of all Trades", that will be bad.

But then I learned a long time ago in Eve; "Fly everything, because they are going to nerf something every time".

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Lair Osen
#2596 - 2013-09-05 16:48:03 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

That si why in my post i said.. Al l ships with WEAPONS... not all ships....


So that discounts Freigters...

However Mining Barges have drones and Indys have Guns/Turrets and both can and have been used for PvP.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2597 - 2013-09-05 16:50:27 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:

The RS needs a mild buff to be in line with its brethern, so buffing that will make it as good as a Mach at what the Mach does. But since the RS is a "Swiss Army Knife" or "Jack of all Trades", that will be bad.

Additional launcher hardpoint please.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2598 - 2013-09-05 16:55:59 UTC
Jackie Fisher wrote:
Second iteration on balancing just terrible. They are now worse than they are currently in game in return for the benefit of Bastion.

Initial attempt was much better and at least a reasonable basis for further work.

As you appear to be scratching around for what to with them just keep it simple and just remove the original anti-PvP nerfs to them (fix grid, sensor strength and scan res) and move on to something else for now.


You are wrong and bad.





Seriously, i remember a time when CCP stated that they weren't going to make battleships with t2 restistances because its a horrible idea and its not interesting.


Don't make a change like this just to make a change.

CCP, If you don't have a solid idea for Marauders, don't change them until you do.

This sort of fumbling in the dark will lead us to a very bad place.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Mia Restolo
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2599 - 2013-09-05 17:02:34 UTC
I don't know what direction marauders are supposed to be taking any more, and it seems neither does CCP. So many changes coupled with the addition of the bastion module with its set of bonuses doesn't seem to work out while trying to keep all the marauders on even footing for lvl4s, incursions, null PvE, and PvP.

So with proposed changes we have a ship with low mobility that can blink 100km often with range bonuses that seem to push it towards sniping, but then it also gets a massive brick tank and a web bonus that is far more useful point blank. A tractor beam bonus that reaches about half way between the two.

Bastion seems to be in for sure, but I think it should be balanced with itself, not mesh with a nerfed marauder hull or compensate with its shortcomings. FIRST improve the hulls, leave them similar to TQ, retain the fitting buffs, buff sensor strength, maybe T2 resists. THEN do the bastion module pass with much smaller bonuses than currently proposed, maybe even two different modules with one set for defense that nerfs offense and one that does the opposite, or tailored to fighting style (long/short maybe?)
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2600 - 2013-09-05 17:13:08 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
To quote this other post.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.

We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future.


And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations.


Yes, truly the epitome of practicality, giving a web strength bonus to a ship that also has a role bonus to a module that jumps you 100km in any direction.

Well, that's what people were demanding. Go figure.

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