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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2481 - 2013-09-05 12:04:30 UTC
Let's consider outside of bastion mode first. So what do the numbers look like for a brawling Marauder now with the transition from 37.5 local rep versus T2 resists? PVE wise, some ships received a buff against their faction NPCs and some basically lost a third of their TQ tanking ability (Paladin). For PVP, this is reversed where the more omni-tanked T2 resist profiles shine. I'm not sure if this is a decent trade-off for all races here since enhancing the ship class's PVP role is a secondary concern. It shouldn't come as a nerf to the existing PVE capabilities of each hull. There are arguments for each side here.

The real problem now is that the bastion module is basically useless for non sniper roles. If you brawler fit and land in the middle of a furball, bastion mode has very little benefit. The issue arises when you consider the tracking and missile damage formulas.

At 0 m/s, the left side of the tracking equation basically drops out because you have very little traversal so the only modification to NPC/enemy chance to hit with turrets is falloff. If the NPC enters their optimal range, which will happen quickly since you're not moving, they will have a 100% chance to hit. Even moving at 100 m/s slowboating reduces incoming damage from enemy turrets.

The NPC missiles have an explosion velocity of around 85 m/s if I recall correctly. With the pre-nerf base speed you'd see at least a little damage reduction for incoming missiles. When in bastion mode you'll be guaranteeing max damage from missile based NPCs.

This all combines to make the 100% rep bonus far less than 100% effective because you'll be taking somewhere between 20-50% more damage depending on NPC range. In the middle of the pack most NPCs will be within optimal.

As has been discussed before, the tanking bonus doesn't really help the sniper role in PVE but the range bonus does. So really the bastion module only has the range bonus going for it for sniper fits and is almost pointless for anyone brawling or being caught in a PVP situation.

The original iteration although seriously flawed was still better than what we have now. This version makes winners and losers for PVE based on racial T2 resists with some being good for missions and some for incursions. At the price point they still aren't worth it for PVP use.

Give me a reason to hit the bastion button other than range (which for some weapon systems isn't needed), EWAR immunity (only really 1 in 5 missions does this even matter), and a cool animation.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Setsune Rin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2482 - 2013-09-05 12:05:33 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Franz7657 wrote:
wtf? webber is completly useless on the golem...


Well, the kronos and Paladin Pilots wanted their webs.

So now it's all of them or none of them. Roll


which is batshit ********....
Eli Kzanti
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2483 - 2013-09-05 12:09:50 UTC
Setsune Rin wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Franz7657 wrote:
wtf? webber is completly useless on the golem...


Well, the kronos and Paladin Pilots wanted their webs.

So now it's all of them or none of them. Roll


which is batshit ********....

Couldn't agree more.

My Vargur is either going to be sold off to pay for a pirate BS instead (if anyone even wants the damn thing after this) or will be left to gather dust in my hangar, I expect.
Setsune Rin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2484 - 2013-09-05 12:15:27 UTC
ytterbium needs to decide what he wants to do with them

either they're snipers and you give them appropriate bonuses or they're not and you fix bastion mode to match

cant snipe with a ~15km range module being bonussed

make it a long range web bonus then
Vegare
Bitslix
Lolsec Fockel
#2485 - 2013-09-05 12:17:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vegare
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
[...]we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons.


This is totally backwards! Mjd bonus and bastion mod encourage a completely different engagement envelope.

Furthermore web bonuses should stay racial exclusive for Minmatar and Amarr (range and amount respectively, disregarding pirate faction cooperations in ship design). This goes for all other ewar/propulsion jamming bonuses as well: Don't water down racial flavours please!
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2486 - 2013-09-05 12:18:29 UTC
The selling point behind the bastion module was the 30% non stacking resists, without those I will never use it.
Rat specific tanking is one of the most ******** concepts I have ever been introduced to and the first bastion module and original hull tanking module gave proper tanking for any PVE situation that you could encounter.

The Tractor beam bonus needs to be increased to 200% or introduce the unpublished large tractor beam.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Solaris Ecladia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2487 - 2013-09-05 12:18:30 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.

you took away the rep bonus and ****** up the entire ship.
what the **** are you doing ccp?
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2488 - 2013-09-05 12:18:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
What are those new tech2 resistances on marauders, do they compensate lack of bonuses to the local reps?

Sure they don't compensate for both removed basic rep bonus and bastion resistances (here I'm comparing proposition 2 with proposition 1). If we are to compare current proposition with today's marauders, then the answer is "not always". For once, PvE in Paladin takes a hit here as Amarr T2 resistance profile is irrelevant against rats that Paladin is supposed to shoot (and if you aren't shooting Sansha or BR you should just go ahead and grab any other marauder). Plus there is lowered speed unless using MJD, and MJD playstyle doesn't sit well with salvaging on the go... It's a trainwreck really when it comes to missioning. And there's competition with other hulls when it comes to pretty much everything they can do, so yeah...

In PvP T2 profile is not bad, but I'm yet to understand resons to field this new marauder over something of similar price. And as I've said it, if the bonus s there indeed for sniper marauders to protect themselves from tacklers, I'm not really sure how well that will work without slight range bonus.

Debora Tsung wrote:
Franz7657 wrote:
wtf? webber is completly useless on the golem...


Well, the kronos and Paladin Pilots wanted their webs.

So now it's all of them or none of them. Roll

I honestly don't think that Paladin needs his webs, and then there's Vindy if you need blaster ship with webs...

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Trendafil
Balkan Kings
Goonswarm Federation
#2489 - 2013-09-05 12:21:22 UTC
Pve is not about tanking more it's about dps. Implementing new module that gives defensive boost to ships that did not had tanking problems to begin with is bad design. I love the idea of tranformation and i reaaaally hope its not gonna end up like the dreds (guns sticking out a bit). With that in mind here is my suggestion for the Bullshtion Module:

Instead of making a bastard child of triage module and civilian miner i would LOVE to see what will happen if a Doomsday and a siege module had a baby! For example:

Single high dmg shot, that makes the marouder vulnerable for 60sec (25sec transformation animation, 10 sec shot animation or missile fight time and 25sec to transform back) During these 60 sec some terrible defensive penalties are applied, making it a true glass cannon. To make it even more interesting, this one high dmg shot can be cap heavy and interuptable by draning the cap during the intial transormation phase(25s).

But since this is too good to ever happen in eve here is something more constructive:
Replace all deffensive bonuses with offensive for the bastion and instead making it unable to recieve reps just reduce the amount of remote rep to 50%.


Lets face it, this is bad attempt to make the ship more usefull in the next tournament. I am willing to bet money that this comes from summary of the starts for ships used in the last tournament.

The tournament is relevant fot about two weekends each year and calling it relevant is pushing it. If CCP wants to get more of that pro-gaming buzz, please make the tournament matter beyond few shiny ships that we never see anyway... and only then move on to changing the ships to reflect this new direction.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2490 - 2013-09-05 12:23:00 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


Could you please put it to 5% on both these and the Serpentis? Even at 7,5% its still a stupidly overpowered bonus...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2491 - 2013-09-05 12:24:14 UTC
Trendafil wrote:
Pve is not about tanking more it's about dps. Implementing new module that gives defensive boost to ships that did not had tanking problems to begin with is bad design. I love the idea of tranformation and i reaaaally hope its not gonna end up like the dreds (guns sticking out a bit).

Well, tbh tanking bonus kind of allows ships to dedicate more mods to DPS/projection instead of using them to tank, but I see your point.
And yeah, I like transformation idea too.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2492 - 2013-09-05 12:24:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
Debora Tsung wrote:
Franz7657 wrote:
wtf? webber is completly useless on the golem...


Well, the kronos and Paladin Pilots wanted their webs.

So now it's all of them or none of them. Roll


Hey Man, I am a Paladin pilot and I don't want it. I also don't want capacitor amount bonus (why do we have it exactly? didn't CCP at HAC rebalance said that capacitor bonuses are stupid?).
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2493 - 2013-09-05 12:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
*edited
Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
#2494 - 2013-09-05 12:33:26 UTC
I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together.
Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade
#2495 - 2013-09-05 12:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Josh Cox
I guess I'll take another stab on it and comment on the changes as they currently are laid out (2013-09-05) (mostly regarding the Vargur as that is what I'm most interested in)

Things I like:
- Bastion mode for the most part (+100% shield/armor rep, falloff/optimal/max. velocity +25%)
- Fitting changes (I actually think I'm most excited about the power grid increase)
- Targeting buffs
- Sig radius buff
- MJD bonus
- T2 Resists

Things I don't like but will accept because you can't let them become OP:
- Velocity/mass nerf
- Drone bandwidth nerf
- HP nerf

Things I don't like that I think need to be changed:
- Web bonus on ships that previously had rep bonuses: Seems kinda silly to bonus a short range module on a long range weapons platform. Remove web bonus on these hulls, reinstate shield rep bonus but leave it at 5% / level instead of 7.5% / level, since we have T2 resists and Bastion mode now
- Tractor beam bonus: again, range doesn't fit with the platform you've set up. I'd say make it a 200% range bonus or remove it entirely
- No resist bonus to bastion mode: add it back it, but at around 10% non-stacking instead of 30%
- Sensor strength: perhaps like.... 5 more points? Just so it's a little harder to jam

Basically, I like these changes for the most part, but I do agree with the sentiment that all these bonuses seemed mashed together on some ships because the ranges that they apply at are all out of whack. Also, from a mission running perspective, I don't really see myself using Bastion mode except when I'm in heavy need of reps. Even less so for incursions and PvP (and I think that 10% non-stacking resist bonus on bastion would mitigate this).
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#2496 - 2013-09-05 12:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
hmm.

i loved the first go at these ships.

but i have to say, t2 resists?
my sac has the same resists. i stick 1 1600 plate and go from 2250 without skills to 8062 with skills and plate.
my ehp while not in fleet and only using passive t2 mods is at 50k. so my 8k paladin will have 10k armor with skills and 2 plates = 19k with 84, 83, 84, 88% resists (assuming i keep the same setup as my sac and ad another plate and a heat sink). now, if i put a 3rd plate, we're talking 22k bordering 23k armor at what resists? put it in fleet with the mindlink and a damnation or astarte pushing armor links and we have 15% on top of this @26.5k and 86-90% resistances. thats 190k EHP in ARMOR ALONE against the weakest resist.
or stick 2 lar II's instead of a 3rd plate and enter beast mode and have 2 local reps pushing the healing of 4 with super high resists and a 30% tracking bonus? thats 22500 armor @161k EHP just in armor alone on the weakest resistance. omni tanked....it gets worse. your tank goes to 225k against explosive. with the cap recharge rate, you can run double reps for a bit.

now add in the ability to hit 120km with megapulse (not tachyons), the ability to stay out of range of most ships while you completely slaughter them, and once they get close enough, you mjd away and start the process over again? i fail to see how this is a problem. 161k (minimum) armor tank with the bonus to rep tremendous amounts until rescue shows up (for pvp) is crazy. and, it still has the dps of 10 mega pulse without a damage mod. with a damage mod, it gets insane. now web em still, scram their mwd off and unleash hell.
wait...reinforcements? mjd. snipe. mjd. snipe. how many dead ships until they get the message?
watch out for arazu tho...other than that, yer killin fewls.

the web bonus IS out of place on a ship that is the master of range. it can hit you at range, keep you at range and blast u from range..so why the close in web? hell, i couldnt hit frigates orbiting at 10km with my megapulse even at 90%.

thats what light drones are for.

for missions:
range. keep them at range. if you guys are trying to max out dps and drop tank, youll suffer some, but kill faster. thats what pirate ships are for. if u wanna hold your tank and still only slightly slaughter the enemy, then t2 is your path.

for pvp, the web bonus will be great.

for wh, since i run a noctis, i dont use the tractor or salvager and i damn sure wouldnt rig my damage ship for salvaging to help it. but then again, i havent had my paladin in a wh since 09 and salvaging those bs wrecks is a good thing. again, we would just put a noctis in the orca or whatever.

for incursions, the slower those frigs run, the easier they are to hit, i agree. focus more on the bigger ships like the cruisers and bs rats. but since you have your webs back...be happy.

i did not like the resists on the old marauder. i love these. i love bastion mode. the 7.5% rep rate would have been god mode, but with 160k tank minimum, its there anyway. if you can resist it, no need to heal it. this is a nasty buffer for any incursion fleet. you can drop 1 logi and bring a loki. there's your webs, or another marauder and gain your drone damage back.
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2497 - 2013-09-05 12:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.
  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level.

    • Do u even know what u are doing? u are making thoose ships stationary with bastion module, u are giving them bonus to optimal range of their weapons and in same across all of them despite complete different weapon platform, a web bonus? webs got 10km range whats the point if this if your guns got 100k and your ship cant move?. U said yourself u are sniping frigates before they will came close, and now u suddenly doing something complete opposite.

    Thoose ships are too slow to catch anything, they dont have proper cap to run mwd, tank and shoot in same time. Hacs can run forever with only mwd on, marauders cant. Golem doesnt need web or target painter (standard torps got 30k range, cruise over 200k, without bastion stuff). He need damage bonus like all other 3 marauders, he need explosion radius reduction in place of target painter and since other ships got invulnerability to tracking disruptors, golem need invulnerability to defender missiles when in bastion mode. If u dont understand it then please go away.
    Zendon Taredi
    Tier Four Technologies
    #2498 - 2013-09-05 12:42:51 UTC
    Keep the hulls as they are now, change the bastion module.
    Edward Olmops
    Gunboat Commando
    #2499 - 2013-09-05 12:43:27 UTC
    These new proposed changes cut the tank in HALF before adding T2-resists.
    Overall much less "bastion" than before... and more of the OP webs. I am not sure I like the new version.

    As for mass increase and wormholes:
    115m kg mass times ten is more than fits through most WHs anyway. You could as well have said: 20 times the mass and it would not have gone through ANY WH.
    Iome Ambraelle
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #2500 - 2013-09-05 12:43:52 UTC
    I'd like to put one of my earlier posts in this thread back out there.

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3553386#post3553386

    The balancing act of this ship class would be much easier if you simply separate the two roles of sniper and brawler into two distinct bastion modules or add scripting capabilities to the module. The current state of the rebalance is trying to go in too many directions at once.

    I'm really worried that the Paladin in particular will actually have a LESS effective tank (for the NPC factions it's supposed to be shooting) than it does on TQ even when in bastion mode. The T2 resist profile doesn't help there so the base hull will be 1/3 less effective tanking that damage (EM/therm) than it is on TQ. To make up for it you can activate the bastion module. However, this increases incoming damage by 20-50% because you are now immobile taking max NPC missile damage and much more NPC turret damage as the tracking equation gets reduced to only falloff.

    Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.