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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2041 - 2013-09-04 17:48:56 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them Shocked


Something about a player elected council... you know representative vrs direct democracy...

....

though with the resist bonus being taken away from teh bastion bonus... i would really like to see it gain something more...
please add a bonus to target sectrum breaker mod... like take away the sig resolution penilty...

that would make the mod pretty good for pvp...

also can you up the rep amount to 137.5% as this would make up for the lost rep bonus... also it would add the ability for a kronos to be a shield rep ship or a vargur to be a armor rep ship...

i am sad to see my vargur loose its rep bonus...

like really sad...

please boost the bastion mod... to include it!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2042 - 2013-09-04 17:52:17 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them Shocked


Something about a player elected council... you know representative vrs direct democracy...

....

though with the resist bonus being taken away from teh bastion bonus... i would really like to see it gain something more...
please add a bonus to target sectrum breaker mod... like take away the sig resolution penilty...

that would make the mod pretty good for pvp...

also can you up the rep amount to 137.5% as this would make up for the lost rep bonus... also it would add the ability for a kronos to be a shield rep ship or a vargur to be a armor rep ship...

i am sad to see my vargur loose its rep bonus...

like really sad...

please boost the bastion mod... to include it!


well since the CSM members are mainly null sec large alliance members perhaps it explains the seemingly more RR friendly marauders

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sollana
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2043 - 2013-09-04 17:54:50 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them Shocked

I'm going to be fair to CCP: They asked for feedback, and well over half of it was people bitching about their incursion webs and T2 Resists.

Many of us who supported the changes just tipped the hat and walked away from the thread. You can't blame them for thinking this change was going to be popular.

But seriously, CCP: The first idea was way, way better. Bring back the old Bastion.


dear CCP,

the carebears have ruined what I thought was an outstanding change for a rarely used ship.

the games need to be made diverse, different, exciting..... bastion mode in an anomaly in null sec space would be awesome...

the ship would be used for pos defence and other much fun things..

FFS dont give in the the feeble minded morons that dont even use 0.0

If the CSM like the idea then use it... ignore the forum trolls
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#2044 - 2013-09-04 17:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


over all, i think this is a step in the right direction.

I had a much longer post with pros and cons etc, but apparently it disappeared when i tried to post so i will probably edit this later
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2045 - 2013-09-04 17:57:05 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Comparing the old PVE marauders to these changes: what is worse?

smaller drone bay?

37.5% tank nerf.

50% drone bandwidth nerf.

25% speed nerf.

50% mass nerf.

10% HP nerf.

25% web nerf.


You get a 100% rep amount boost

You gained a 80% web for slowing down smaller targets

Old kronos mass = 101,800,000 kg
New kronos mass = 113,160,000 kg

fit propulsion

all marauders get a web bonus

New is obviously better than the old Blink


Shinzhi Xadi wrote:


outside of bastion mode: This ^

especially if your in amarr space doing L4 missiions or sites, and fighting EM/Therm enemies. The T2 resist give nothing to EM/Therm.


Fill the resist hole like you would with any other ship..... Buy modules


There are too many modules already these ships need to perform within the bonus structure. For a Golem you are going to fit a MJD, Web, Painter, and now more resist mods, possibly an afterburner using up 3+ mids for every fit which reduces the flexibility the original concept was trying to open up. It is all over the place. This iteration lacks focus.

Get rid the tractor bonus, increase dps while in bastion or revert back to the original and tweak it. Still no real reason to use the bastion if I use all the other bonus's to effect. 100% tank and ewar immunity is great, but if I am in web range, all those things become mute except the local rep bonus. If your backed by logi, then there is no use for that either. It won't increase the uses for the bastion.
Wizzard117
Wizzard117 Corporation
#2046 - 2013-09-04 17:58:40 UTC
Golem's web bonus is bad and illogical bcuz

1. Golem already have expl velocity bonus which somewhat helps to apply damage against fast targets. Do not really need a 2nd bonus of the same group
2. Cruise missiles can fly quite a long even with all4 skills and hit their targets for equal dmg regardless of the actual distance to them. However webs works in close range compared to that so that benefits only close range combat. Does not benefit the cruise setup that much.
3. We may not always want to shoot at close targets, we sometimes may want to let our light drones do the job without wasting ammo and without extra web micro. With the skills, drones may even kill a bunch of targets faster than {ammo_recharge,target_painter,webifier} modules cycle.
4. It looks a little bit better in a torpedo Golem, but
- torpedo Golem looks for a close fight
- with proposed speed nerf I believe even carriers can easily keep Golem at range of 50 km, and theres no way it can jump close enough to fire torpedoes. To approach Golem will have to use AB and be slower than every other BS with AB, or fit and MWD and be slower than an average frigate with no propulsion module at all or any cruiser with AB
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2047 - 2013-09-04 18:00:46 UTC
People, stop talking about level 4 missions. These are not for level 4 missions. Please do not waste six months training up Racial Battleship V, AWU V, and Marauders V for goddamn level fours. Level fours are retardedly easy. You don't need T2 resists and 100% tank bonus to survive level fours. Get a max gank navy BS or pirate BS for L4s, they do more DPS and the fact that their tank is so much weaker is totally irrelevant because L4s do crap for damage to begin with.

You use these ships when you need to tank AND deal DPS. WIth these, you lose 5-10% DPS relative to using a pirate BS but gain an immense amount of tank. In L4s you don't need the tank, so just stick with the pirate BS. You want to bring these out for warping to an anom at 0 and having 8 BS and 8 battlecruisers spawn all within 10km of you and aggroing. In L4s the spawns are spread out and aggro piecemeal. Use them in wormholes where you get heavily neuted and even light drones get switched to.
marVLs
#2048 - 2013-09-04 18:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: marVLs
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.



This changes are better than old for PVP, and PVE in most case, but....

Now bastion is even more uselessAttentionit will tank less thanks to removal of 7.5% tanking bonus per level

Ok we got cool ewar bonuses (useful in pvp, incursions) but still, without remote reps, smaller active tanking than before no one will activate it in pvp, because for what? You use MJD to jump into enemies, and activate Bastion to show them You know how to suicide? ... It should be You jump to enemies to pwnge them (thanks to damage bonus, range bonus, and web) , so they ruuuun. OP? Where? You will be able to catch only one dude, and even not sure to kill him, because they can use remote reps, and even without it they may take the challange and kill You, because You can't move, and You tank not so well, so it will can lead to cool situations.

In missions? Meh tank is enought for them without this mode, maybe low/null anoms. Srly it's a waste of idea without raw damage bonus on bastion mode.

Still...

tractor range should be at least doubled Attention
A little more scan res neededAttention

Golem problem... Now with web and painter it desperately need to be torp boat as primary Attention I mean ok it will be in pvp, but what about pve. Still cruise missiles will be better, so with Bastion damage mode, give missiles 50% of range instead of current 25%...



Overall a little better, still need some tweaks but... without damage bonus bastion is uselessAttention
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2049 - 2013-09-04 18:02:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
Zeus Maximo wrote:

fit propulsion

...


Fill the resist hole like you would with any other ship..... Buy modules


The new Marauders are better because we can fit modules to compensate for the nerfs... With all those extra slots they didn't give us.

The Version 1 Bastion was great because it allowed you to use more lows for tracking/damage mods without hurting survivability (Armor) and more projection/application mods without hurting survivability (shield). Now we need to fit MORE tank in the lows (to compensate for 37.5% tank nerf) and more prop in the mid (just to make these ships flyable.) Both of these mods will come at the expense of Tracking, Projection and Damage mods. Slowing down mission running, just to get the ship up to it's current survivability.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2050 - 2013-09-04 18:03:24 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


Welp, apparently I shouldn't play poker. I'm going to love playing around with these bonuses but I think it's a bit OP. Lol

Well, except for the mass penalty being removed, was kinda figuring the Bump-Battleship from hell wasn't going to last given the ability to instantly crash a C6 with ~3-4 of these. If it had gone live it would have been removed the first time someone sent a Freighter flying 100km off the 4-4 undock.

Read back a few pages. I think I make a compelling case for these changes being rather abysmal.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2051 - 2013-09-04 18:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
Xequecal wrote:
People, stop talking about level 4 missions. These are not for level 4 missions.

Yes. They. Are.

Besides, bitching about incursions worked great for you lot. And we all know these ships were designed for incursions...

Quote:
In L4s you don't need the tank, so just stick with the pirate BS.

That's what I'm going to be forced to do after these changes.

And I don't want to. I love the Paladin. I love the model. I love that it's going to transform into a cool battlestation thingy now. But if it sucks, and it will suck for missioning compared to any number of other ships, then I won't fly it.
Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2052 - 2013-09-04 18:08:10 UTC
Arya Greywolf wrote:


Dear CCP Ytterbium,

What is your reasoning for giving the Vargur a larger drone bay than the Paladin? I don't see any compelling evidence why it should be this way. It should either be even or the Paladin should have the larger drone bay -- for the following reasons:

1) The Vargur has better innate tracking through its bonuses.

2) The Vargur has better tracking through the innate values of autocannons.

3) The Vargur is faster.

4) Amarr are generally 2nd in drones armament (whilst I admit it is the weakest point, it's still one CCP has considered and used as reasoning in the past to justify drone bay allocation).

The points listed above (especially the first 3) lead to one conclusion, to wit: That the Vargur has the greater ability to deal with smaller targets on the field than the Paladin. Why does this matter? Because drones on Battleships are, many times, the one weapon system that saves them from frigates and other targets that get under their tracking.

This is the primary reason why the Talos has a 25 drone bay and the other ABCs do not: it has the shortest range - by far - of all the ABCs and thus the full flight of ECM drones or Warrior IIs give it the extra protection it needs. With the Paladin and Vargur, this range disparity is dissimilar and nearly non-existent. Whilst the Paladin has an optimal bonus, the Vargur has a falloff bonus (and we all know how much falloff Barrage has). Further, with the Bastion module, both boats receive a substantial bonus to optimal and falloff.

And so, my point still stands that the Paladin is more susceptible to smaller targets and therefore should have a larger (or at least equal) drone bay as compared to the Vargur.

Thus, I see no compelling reason why the Paladin should not have the 50mb drone bay and the Vargur a 25mb drone bay -- or at the least they should be equal.

Thanks for reading this, cheers.


CCP Ytterbium Please respond. The reasoning still stands seeing as both Vargur and Paladin have the same web bonus now, essentially making it a wash.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#2053 - 2013-09-04 18:09:38 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
some of us liked the 1st iteration more :(


the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2054 - 2013-09-04 18:09:46 UTC
Just to check, are there now no ties to racial tanking other than number of high/low slots?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2055 - 2013-09-04 18:10:19 UTC
Sollana wrote:
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
isn't it great that CCP don't even ask us if we would like such drastic changes they just make them Shocked

I'm going to be fair to CCP: They asked for feedback, and well over half of it was people bitching about their incursion webs and T2 Resists.

Many of us who supported the changes just tipped the hat and walked away from the thread. You can't blame them for thinking this change was going to be popular.

But seriously, CCP: The first idea was way, way better. Bring back the old Bastion.


dear CCP,

the carebears have ruined what I thought was an outstanding change for a rarely used ship.

the games need to be made diverse, different, exciting..... bastion mode in an anomaly in null sec space would be awesome...

the ship would be used for pos defence and other much fun things..

FFS dont give in the the feeble minded morons that dont even use 0.0

If the CSM like the idea then use it... ignore the forum trolls


yeah it seems like the complainers won the day. :(

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#2056 - 2013-09-04 18:12:43 UTC
2 CCP Ytterbium
stop screwing golem . now it become piece of sh*t

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#2057 - 2013-09-04 18:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranamar
I feel like these most recent changes to the Bastion module nerfed it into the ground. It's a lot less interesting to me now, although maybe that's just because it seems like it will always be better to coast out of Bastion and catch remote reps now, instead of it being a question as to whether it's worth undeploying and instead just sitting there and taking it. I know optimal range is a disguised damage bonus, but I think I'd trade that for being able to catch reps in just about any case. Is there any chance we can get some other thing to sweeten the deploy deal a little more?

On the other hand, the Caldari Marauder finally getting a web bonus is cool, at least when undeployed, seeing as the range on webs is pretty short.

Edit: On further consideration, these bonuses are all over the place. Bastion encourages long range due to the range bonus. MJDs encourage staying >50km away from targets. Web bonuses encourage short range. The Golem will run out of midslots if it tries to use all its bonuses. There's "flexible", and then there's "a grab bag of features any one of which might be useful if the hull is good enough without them".
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2058 - 2013-09-04 18:14:43 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
some of us liked the 1st iteration more :(


the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps.

Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost.

Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount.

That's a significant difference.
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#2059 - 2013-09-04 18:15:45 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


Good job, you've ruined Golems and Vargurs for lvl5s. ******* pointless.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2060 - 2013-09-04 18:18:26 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Battle Cube wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
some of us liked the 1st iteration more :(


the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps.



honestly all they did was listen to the incusrion complainers... thats why we now have the web bonus and tech II resist profile...

i think the bastion mod is rather lacking now... ok so it doubles the rep amount for local tanks and give a okish range bonus but thats it...

why not just make a 30% increase to hull resist with the bastion mod (this was the major reason i liked the mod as it would have let me dip into hull while i wait for the LAAR to re-load)

Also to actually take advantage of local reps in fleet fights i would make a bonus to target spectrum breakers
bastion mod and Target spectrum breaker seems like they compliment each other.


also make the mod scripted. that way if i want extra range i put in the range script if i want extra damage i put in the damage script.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.