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Log-in traps: Something to address?
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ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#101 - 2013-08-21 13:26:50 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system.

I cover this in more detail here.


Explain how local chat is a factor in wormholes.... which was the original scenario presented in the very 1st post....

Which I assume you didnt read.

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seth Hendar
I love you miners
#102 - 2013-08-21 13:32:29 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
plexjunky Inkura wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but this issue is focused on Whs, where bridging and hot drops dont exist. It is rare in WH space for the fleet to actually be logged out at the gank location, they are usually logged off at a deep safe.

A fleet cautiously looks everywhere, finding no one starts to run sites, gankers log on a fleet, warp to site. kill everyone. Cloaks exist for this purpose, at least make that fleet work for their black ops style play.

Fleet hiding cloaked at a safe spot can be found if they forget to cloak, and can be fought. Requires effort on the ganking fleet's part. Has potential to generate pvp if the attackers screw up.

Fleet logged off at deep safe cant be scanned, found or fought. Requires no effort, just lounge around playing whatever till scout says hey guys log in. Has no potential for pvp.


Tell me more about how it requires "no effort" to seed numerous capital ships into enemy wormholes and watch them for weeks for an opportune moment, mr noob corp.

this, and the fact that it is the ONLY way to actually invade a WH, because of the mass restriction vs the HP pool of the various structures, being unable to seed cap and log them of in a WH would mean that the first to get in will remain the holder forever.

whoever took part in invading (or trying to) a WH would know this....
Evanga
DoctorOzz
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#103 - 2013-08-21 13:34:34 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system.

I cover this in more detail here.


Explain how local chat is a factor in wormholes.... which was the original scenario presented in the very 1st post....

Which I assume you didnt read.



you still think your point is valid and that all others are incorrect?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#104 - 2013-08-21 14:13:11 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system.

I cover this in more detail here.


Explain how local chat is a factor in wormholes.... which was the original scenario presented in the very 1st post....

Which I assume you didnt read.


The subject of the thread is 'log-in traps' not 'WH log in traps', but I accept your point.

It is worth adding that logoffski's are a pain (for agressor and defender) not just in WH's, but heavily in use in hisec, losec and null also. THERE they can be better addressed by delaying local chat updates, as covered in another thread.

I return you to your WH centric programming...

Would you like to know more?
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#105 - 2013-08-21 14:16:23 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?

The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.

Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.

It is local chat that should be addressed!





And whats your suggestion, removing it?

Doing so would result in a complete scorched earth no mans land in nullsec, because, say it with me, nullsec is not wormhole space.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#106 - 2013-08-21 14:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?

The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.

Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.

It is local chat that should be addressed!

And whats your suggestion, removing it?

Doing so would result in a complete scorched earth no mans land in nullsec, because, say it with me, nullsec is not wormhole space.


Local chat should be that, a chat interface, not a realtime intel tool with 100% accuracy and timeliness that gives a player 'free' and 'brainless' safety. i.e. +1 local, dock up. The ideas re: remedy are in another thread.

But, theres this thing called D-SCAN, and another thing called scouts -- that you can put on gates or jump-in/out points. Local as a zero-effort 100% realtime/accurate intel tool must die in a fire. It was badly implemented as such, and the DEV that did it should feel bad for the crutch-for-the-brainless he has now created...

Would you like to know more?
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#107 - 2013-08-21 14:33:39 UTC
Acidictadpole wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Kallie Rae wrote:
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?



You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb.


So basically you assumed you were safe when you really weren't. That sounds like user error to me.

This is no different than having a titan bridge a fleet on top of you, except that it doesn't require a Titan. It's a little shameful that people will do it, but I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item.


The difference between a titan bridge and logon trap, and the main complaint it seems, is that there is no way to detect a logon trap, whereas a fleet sitting on a titan can be scouted.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2013-08-21 15:23:34 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Absolutely any suggestion that in any way inhibits PVP immediately after log on would have this exact same effect.

Rowells wrote:
i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.
this would not inhibit any pvp whatsoever. it's all up to the pilot whether he wants to wait it out. suggested it on first page.
monkfish1234
State War Academy
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-08-21 15:32:22 UTC
While I understand that being caught in a log-in trap is a bit of pain in the arse, there is already a limited time between when that player first enters the system and pops up in local, and he can e-warp back to where he logged out, and then tackled you.

Now if he just appeared in space next to you i could see your argument, but really the argument here is if the amount of time you are given to react to it is long enough. to which i'd probably answer yes it is.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#110 - 2013-08-21 15:42:57 UTC
In k-space it'd be easy enough to evade the majority of log on traps by staying aligned and watching local. If you see a new name enter warp and you'll be away before their e-warp finishes. If you're scrambled by a rat or something then thats unlucky but oh well
Onomerous
KARNAGE
Ghostbirds
#111 - 2013-08-21 15:49:07 UTC
Logon traps... will it become the new 'nerf AFK cloaking' topic? 6 pages and growing. Keep going guys!! I'm sure you will be able to find a fix for something which isn't broken!!! GOGOGOGOGOGOGO
Vrenth
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-08-21 23:40:18 UTC
TBH I think login traps should be made easier. The whole warp-out thing is silly. Just have your ship disappear in space and reappear in the same place instantly. I didn't put eve on my solid state drive for nothing.