Player Features and Ideas Discussion

No on paper it isnt, but unlike shield reps you can easily dual rep a armour ship and armour rigs are vastly better then shield one (nano pump and co, not the resist ones)

To the guy who couldnt be bothered to understand the context, im talking about active tanking, not about buffer fits.

the goodness of rigs or the ability to fit two reps vs a SBA has nothing to do it, because we're specifically talking about deadspace shield boosters, while those rigs are considered balanced and happen to affect every module (balanced in the sense of armor vs shield tanking in general, i agree that aux pumps do more than capacitor safeguards). All the rigs perform the same regardless of whether its t1, t2, faction, or deadspace. So you can't point to armor rigs being powerful because we're saying that deadspace shield boosters are specifically out of whack. Also fitting a second armor rep doesn't address the cap use issue that everyone not using a gist or pithum booster faces.

Armor is simple and not broken. There is slight variation in the base activation cost and rep amount per cycle between sansha blood raider and serpentis versions, but they all follow the same principle of increasing boost amount 10% per level over the t2 version.

Armor t2 = 2hp/cap efficiency
armor faciton = 2hp/cap efficiency (slightly faster)
armor c-type = 2.2hp/cap efficiency (+10% over t2)
b-type = +20% over t2
a-type = +30% over t2
X-type = +40% over t2

Shield is wierd. For t1, t2, faction, and pith L and X-L boosters, shield boosters follow the exact same "rules" as armor reps. All of the other versions are funky.

Shield:
ALL t2 boosters : 1.5 hp/cap efficiency
ALL faction: 1.5 hp/cap efficiency (10% faster cycle time)

Pith L and X-L: +10%/20/30/40 (to boost amount, boost per sec, and cap efficiency) model, by leaving cap use same, increasing boost amount at each higher tier.

Now it gets funky:
Pithi: Boost amount goes from 30hp per boost at t2 to 55 on the c-type (SAR goes from 80 at t2 to 88 at c-type, the 10% model)
Same for pithum, starting at the C-type, the boost amount goes off teh charts, resulting in insane cap efficiency AND boosting speed. Hence PIthum A-type booster being one of the most valuable and useful mods in the game.

For all Gisti/Gistum, the activation cost drops by nearly half at the C-type and boost amount goes up slightly. As you go up the tiers activation cost increases slightly and boost amount goes up significantly. again resulting in absurd efficiency and excellent boost/second

For Gist L and X-L, boost amount at the C-type level starts slightly lower than T2 but again activation cost is nearly halved. The boost amount climbs significantly as you get higher tiers, and the activation cost increases slightly, again resulting in absurd efficiency and excellent boost/second

an a-type deadspace armor rep of any size is like 30% better than t2, while most a-type deadspace shield reps (save the Pith L and X-L) are like 80-150% better than t2.

It is not possible to actually look at these numbers and not see 75% of the shield boosters as the numerical anomalies that they are. IMO either make half the armor reps stupidly awesome by giving them -40% cap use at the c-type level (serpentis ones), or bring the deadspace shield boosters in line with everything else. Or, if Fozzie doesn't want to rock the boat too hard, just take my suggestion and give the 15% buff to everything that doesn't say Gisti, Gistum, Gist, Pithi, or Pithum. Give Pith boosters the 15% bonus because they're actually in-line with armor mods.

Sorry for harping on this topic with multiple posts, but I feel like no one at CCP has actually looked at the numbers for these module. Sorry Fozzie, much love, but your version2 that gives different bonuses to DG/Domination boosters when they're already in-line with each other and with armor mods, and not distinguishing the four separate groups of shield booster stat progression indicates you need to look at the numbers closer.

Boosters now and with added change in the proposal:

S GA [4.4hp/gj, 28hp/s, 6.5gj/s] No change
S PA [3.8hp/gj, 38hp/s, 10gj/s] No change
S T2/RF [1.5hp/gj, 15hp/s, 10gj/s] +15% [1.725hp/gj, 17.25hp/s, 10gj/s]
S CN [1.5hp/gj, 18.75hp/s, 12.5gj/s] +5% [1.575hp/gj, 19.69hp/s, 12.5gj/s]

M GA [4.5hp/gj, 56.67hp/s, 12.67gj/s] No change
M PA [3.8hp/gj, 76hp/s, 20gj/s] No change
M T2/RF [1.5hp/gj, 30hp/s, 20gj/s] +15% [1.725hp/gj, 34.5hp/s, 20gj/s]
M CN [1.5hp/gj, 37.5hp/s, 25gj/s] +5% [1.575hp/gj, 39.74hp/s, 25gj/s]

L GX [2.64hp/gj, 84.06hp/s, 31.88gj/s] +10% [2.90hp/gj, 92.47hp/s, 31.88gj/s]
L PX [2.1hp/gj, 105hp/s, 50gj/s] +10% [2.31hp/s, 115.50hp/s, 50gj/s]
L T2/RF [1.5hp/gj, 60hp/s, 40gj/s] +15% [1.725hp/gj, 69hp/s, 40gj/s]
L CN [1.5hp/gj, 75hp/s, 50gj/s] +5% [1.575hp/gj, 78.75hp/s, 50gj/s]

XL GX [3.3hp/gj, 168hp/s, 51 gj/s] +10% [3.61hp/gj 184.8hp/s 51gj/s]
XL PX [2.1hp/gj, 210hp/s, 100gj/s] +10% [2.31hp/gj, 231hp/s, 100gj/s]
XL T2/RF [1.5hp/gj, 120hp/s, 80gj/s] +15% [1.725hp/gj, 138hp/s, 80gj/s]
XL CN [1.5hp/gj, 150hp/s, 100gj/s] +5% [1.575hp/gj, 157.5hp/s, 100gj/s]


Some apparent issues in the list:

-Small CN 1.575hp/gj vs Small Gistii A-type 4.4hp/gj. A 280% efficiency over a faction module of same size.
-Small T2 15hp/s vs. Small Pithii A-Type 38hp/s, a 253% effect over a T2 module of the same size.
-Large deadspace modules utterly inferior in terms of efficiency compared to other sizes of deadspace boosters.
-XL deadspace modules are quite inferior in terms of efficiency, especially the Pith XL.
-The inefficiency with especially the T2/faction boosters is not justified, it hampers active tank fits in PvP alot and creates a niche environment where only booster bonus ships may effectively use them, and they still rather use ancillaries.
- The inefficiency of SB and AR is why ancillaries are so prevalent along with the overwhelming Neut risks, especially in active shield tanking SB are quite weak in any sense, the massive cap dependency in active tanking which neuters almost every ship is over the top, especially for those who need capacitor to use their weapons and other modules; Active tanking becomes again very niche and somewhat only properly available for Minmatar, Caldari and some drone ships as a result.
-The modules should vary in performance but lets be fair, the best boosters are way over the top compared to T2 and need to be balanced, either the rest go up or deadspace goes down, I prefer taking T2/faction up a notch, mostly in efficiency.

What I will do here is to categorise the boosters.
T2 modules will be low effect high efficiency modules with high fitting costs.
RF booster will be low effect high efficiency module with low fitting costs.
CN booster will be high effect low efficiency module with low fitting costs.
Gist will be high efficiency modules with low fitting costs.
Pith will be high effect modules with high fitting costs.

In detail how I would like it to be, roughly:

S GA [4.33 hp/gj, 26hp/s, 6gj/s]
S PA [3.8hp/gj, 38hp/s, 10gj/s]
S T2/RF [2.8 hp/gj, 17.5hp/s, 6.25gj/s]
S CN [2.5hp/gj, 20hp/s, 8gj/s]

M GA [4.17 hp/gj, 50hp/s, 12gj/s]
M PA [3.6 hp/gj, 72hp/s, 20gj/s]
M T2/RF [2.8hp/gj, 35hp/s, 12.5gj/s]
M CN [2.5hp/gj, 40hp/s, 16gj/s]

L GX [4.0 hp/gj, 96hp/s, 24gj/s]
L PX [3.4 hp/gj, 136hp/s, 40gj/s]
L T2/RF [2.8hp/gj, 70hp/s, 25gj/s]
L CN [2.5hp/gj, 80hp/s, 32gj/s]

XL GX [3.92 hp/gj, 188hp/s, 48 gj/s]
XL PX [3.2 hp/gj, 256hp/s, 80gj/s]
XL T2/RF [2.8hp/gj, 140hp/s, 50gj/s]
XL CN [2.5 hp/gj, 160hp/s, 64gj/s]


The remaining models of Gist and Pith would gradually downgrade to above RF for gist and above CN for pith with a significant improvement in their respective areas of use, gist in efficiency, pith in effect, like so:
L PX [3.4 hp/gj, 136hp/s, 40gj/s]
L PA [3.2 hp/gj, 128hp/s, 40gj/s]
L PB [3.0 hp/gj, 120hp/s, 40gj/s]
L PC [2.8 hp/gj, 112hp/s, 40gj/s] <- The worst pith is still far more effective than the best gist.
L CN [2.5 hp/gj, 80hp/s, 32gj/s] <- Notice the jump in hp/s and the small jump in efficiency from the worst deadspace pith to CN

L GX [4.00 hp/gj, 96hp/s, 24gj/s]
L GA [3.91 hp/gj, 90hp/s, 23gj/s]
L GB [3.86 hp/gj, 85hp/s, 22gj/s]
L GC [3.81 hp/gj, 80hp/s, 21gj/s]<-The worst gist is still more efficient than the best pith.
L RF [2.8 hp/gj, 70hp/s, 25gj/s]<- Notice the jump in efficiency and the small jump in effect from the worst deadspace gist to RF


This would essentially buff the efficiency of most of the boosters without radically altering their effective capabilities, with the exceptions of large and XL deadspace which need a substantial boost in their performance.

Solution key points:
-The larger the module the more ineffective it becomes, however very gradually when compared to the current state.
-The degradation in efficiency does not apply to T2/faction modules, thus the larger your ship is the better a faction or T2 booster will become relatively.
-T2/Faction modules are more efficient compared to the current state and the current proposal I am responding to, effectively T2/RF going from 1.725HP/GJ(as proposed)to a whopping 2.8HP/GJ and the CN close behind with 2.5HP/GJ and will allow more players to use active tanks efficiently without the need to overly pimp their ships to do basic things.
-Discrepancies in the booster effectiveness and efficiency have been hammered out and both large and XL deadspace modules are immensely more useful.

Final words:

I would do this for Armour repairers as well but I'm lazy but largely the same situation applies to them I reckon.

TL;DR

Booster efficiency is sub par on most levels, a mere 15% boost increase won't solve the problems of highly excessive cap drain, the cap costs must be lowered significantly and some other discrepancies should be hammered out in the deadspace line-ups, especially the large and XL.

How come you removed the change for Capital ships? Why buff tanking for subcaps, but forget about regular sized caps?

Regular size Capital ships need some loving too, they are sandwiched between Subcaps and Supercaps.

Only regular caps use local reps, but even then they will melt fast. Heck local repping power doesn't matter if a Titan can press the I WIN Doomsday BUTTON and one shot you.

The Wolf-Rayet and Pulsar Issue is not a problem imo at all.

Wolf-Rayet increases resists, but at the same time makes ship sig radius smaller, which makes its harder for capitals to hurt subcaps and subcaps get that bonus as well. Subcaps benefit more from a wolf-rayet than a capital ship does, since a capital ship still has a huge sig radius when inside a wolf-rayet.

Pulsar only increases shield HP and capacitor recharge rate, the amount of dps required to break through the active tank has not changed.

Cost is also problem with rep paste (AAR) but i'm leaning more towards buffing AAR some more to justify it's rep cost. If only one module is allowed it should at least be comparable to ASB's

It is important to look at a range of modules when comparing armour and shield. At frigate level things are currently very well balanced MASB has much higher fittings than a SAAR and therefore I would compare it to SAAR plus nano pumps. This 15% boost does concern me as it may throw the balance out.

I would say small reppers/medium shield boosters were fine or certainly only need 5-10% buffs. I would also probably buff small non dead space shield boosters by the upper amount including SASB.

Medium reppers however probably could be buffed by 20% as they have to compete with bigger plates and boosters.

Again at large level reppers lag behind XL boosters especially the ASB. 15% here seems fine with less for shield and no ASB changes.

From just rushing over those numbers, it appears to me that some progressions are odd, mostly

small SB, B-types to A-types is a giant leap, looks as if A-type would be way out of line.
For larges, B to A is quite a leap, A to X is another level of leap.

While deadspace armor repairers scale more smoothly.

I certainly am thankful for those surprisingly useful A-types, however shouldn't such a progression be found amongst armor reppers aswell, or not at all?


Also, going for remote repair arrays - you normally can choose between the meta IV variation with slower cap-to-hp conversion, or the T2 version, which cycles a little faster and burns out a tad faster. Would love to see the cycle of T2-SB reduced, along with altered cap consumption/shield restoration, to yield a faster cycling, more heat-sensitive kind of booster. As of now, the lower cycletimes are (afaik) restricted to meta-7+ modules. Would really like the T2 ones to be the fastest reacting ones, that are also the most sensible.

Add insult to injury: still uses cap while boosting with nanites

I more look at it, Add insult to injury: still requires cap booster to manage cap needs, while burning up nanite paste.

I would prefer if the AAR added soem base HP to a ship equivilant to alittle over a 100mm plate for small, 400 plate for med, or 800 plate for large with no mas increase. would make it diferant.

Or if it some how had a small 15hp per second armor repair time when the mod is turned off, kinda like its a nanite repair hive but when activated it causes the nanites to overload themselves in rapir repairs which causes them to be expended.