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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2041 - 2013-09-09 08:50:02 UTC
63.6 on Loki
101.7 on a Rapier
(OH TS web/all V/Claymore/all V+mindlink)

those aren't blaster platforms, however, which we were discussing

.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2042 - 2013-09-09 09:13:12 UTC
Roime wrote:
63.6 on Loki
101.7 on a Rapier
(OH TS web/all V/Claymore/all V+mindlink)

those aren't blaster platforms, however, which we were discussing



The presence of rapiers and lokis on field would be a good argument for the utility of laser (or even missile) ships rather than baster ships.

I think they are at least relevant to the discussion.


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Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2043 - 2013-09-09 09:18:18 UTC
Regards to the Nighthawk - people have already Rticulated most things wrong with it. TLDR - it doesn't shine at anything, what is its niche?

I just wanted to add, in a PvE role the NHawk is not just blown away by the Tengu (always has, it's T3, it's 2-3x cost, so ok), but for Serp and Gurista it's so far and beyond outclassed by the new Cerberus, it's embarrassing. I've posted this simple point twice, the market realises this and now the NHawk isn't selling for even 190m while the Cerb is approaching 230m sells.

Is anyone even listening?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2044 - 2013-09-09 10:23:24 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
The presence of rapiers and lokis on field would be a good argument for the utility of laser (or even missile) ships rather than baster ships.

I think they are at least relevant to the discussion.

Except that the web ranges involved eliminate all weapon systems, even HMLs from the equation so it cannot in fact be used to say anything whatsoever about blasters other than you had better have a way of dealing with LR webs regardless of what you are flying.
You are Gallente so damp the bastards or lug around a few rail platforms or ... without the contingency you are facing a hard counter, the only "real" one as far as I am concerned so it would be your damn fault Big smile
Seolfor wrote:
Regards to the Nighthawk - people have already Rticulated most things wrong with it. TLDR - it doesn't shine at anything, what is its niche?

I just wanted to add, in a PvE role the NHawk is not just blown away by the Tengu (always has, it's T3, it's 2-3x cost, so ok), but for Serp and Gurista it's so far and beyond outclassed by the new Cerberus, it's embarrassing. I've posted this simple point twice, the market realises this and now the NHawk isn't selling for even 190m while the Cerb is approaching 230m sells.

Is anyone even listening?

I'll take your Nighthawk if you take my Damn(ation) pointless brick any day of the week Big smile

Also, is the Cerberus still superior when/if all the things being worked on are sorted out, in particular the ability for a link ship to benefit from its own links? Sure it lacks some range, but even post HML nerf you still have plenty for most PvE stuff and the NH application bonus is infinitely better than whatever the Cerberus brings to the table.
Grutpig Cloudwalker
The Skulls
#2045 - 2013-09-09 16:01:59 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
The presence of rapiers and lokis on field would be a good argument for the utility of laser (or even missile) ships rather than baster ships.

I think they are at least relevant to the discussion.

Except that the web ranges involved eliminate all weapon systems, even HMLs from the equation so it cannot in fact be used to say anything whatsoever about blasters other than you had better have a way of dealing with LR webs regardless of what you are flying.
You are Gallente so damp the bastards or lug around a few rail platforms or ... without the contingency you are facing a hard counter, the only "real" one as far as I am concerned so it would be your damn fault Big smile
Seolfor wrote:
Regards to the Nighthawk - people have already Rticulated most things wrong with it. TLDR - it doesn't shine at anything, what is its niche?

I just wanted to add, in a PvE role the NHawk is not just blown away by the Tengu (always has, it's T3, it's 2-3x cost, so ok), but for Serp and Gurista it's so far and beyond outclassed by the new Cerberus, it's embarrassing. I've posted this simple point twice, the market realises this and now the NHawk isn't selling for even 190m while the Cerb is approaching 230m sells.

Is anyone even listening?

I'll take your Nighthawk if you take my Damn(ation) pointless brick any day of the week Big smile

Also, is the Cerberus still superior when/if all the things being worked on are sorted out, in particular the ability for a link ship to benefit from its own links? Sure it lacks some range, but even post HML nerf you still have plenty for most PvE stuff and the NH application bonus is infinitely better than whatever the Cerberus brings to the table.


Looking over Jita prices a few days after patch.

Abso buy 182m sell 194m
Damn buy 247m sell 255m
NH buy 193m sell 209m
Vulture buy 227m sell 240m
Astarte buy 257m sell 269m
Eos buy 283m sell 319m
Clay buy 231m sell 240m
Sleip buy 228m sell 238m

So I would gladly trade my NH for a Damn. The Gallente ships seems to be the obvious winners from this patch though.
NH and Abso seems to be in worst shape.
Supply and demand...
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#2046 - 2013-09-09 17:59:27 UTC
Then use your Damnation?

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Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2047 - 2013-09-09 20:51:58 UTC
I'm looking forward to using a Damnation, once I get round to fitting one, as we've gone to armour for (almost) everything (aside from Pulsars), making the Sleipnir a no-go.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2048 - 2013-09-09 21:50:10 UTC
hmm isnt skill requirement for command ships too much?
my main char already has it on max , so i dont much care about it,but when i checked it on my alt it would take to use it 72days only leadership skills and command ship lvl5 nothing elese :O
btw why isnt it enought to only have 1 type of warfare skill at lvl5 , fe i want to fly the nighthawk why does it need armored warfare at lvl5,it makes little sense
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2049 - 2013-09-09 22:00:31 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Not at all, your arguments are very true. Than again with all their pros and cons lasers ARE underutilized. I'm not asking to make them overpowered. I'm asking that they have a certain role that no other weapon system can fill (So one day I can hear a FC say: we need laser for that :) ). Won't elaborate further as there are a lot of topics on lasers.


The only laser ships that see real use are the ones that don't waste a bonus on cap use. Abaddon, Apoc, nOmen, nAugoror, nHarbinger are about it. Zealot is the only real exception and those aren't going to be used at all anymore once people figure out that an RLM Cerb is better in every conceivable way.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2050 - 2013-09-11 09:51:48 UTC
Unpinning, 1.1 has been released.
Verlaine Glariant
The Kudur Cult
#2051 - 2013-09-12 16:57:45 UTC
Nighthawk was in desperate need of either another launcher and more powergrid. You finally added that extra PG but now the Nighthawk has one less launcher. So, Nighthawk is still way below the rest of the commands. You solved nothing.

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ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2052 - 2013-09-15 22:57:32 UTC
Fix pls. Posting so **** isn't conveniently forgotten.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2053 - 2013-09-17 04:48:10 UTC
Im not sure how many here actually flew the NHawk prior to posting about it.

After many many hours and fights on live with the new NHawk and running plexes, between me and mates, here is our summary of comments:

Poor Speed/Agi
- The ship has abysmally poor speed and agility to be a HML user in a PvP environment. The ONLY viable exception is to be an overtanked on-grid Siege booster, sitting/slowboating amongst the logi, firing Navy Scourge or serving as anti-tackle with Precisions loaded.

You Need Command Ship 5, unlike Claymore
- For legacy CS users like me its not a big deal, if you already had CS trained. Just get 5, the 7.5% bonus is over 100 dps difference between CS4 and CS5 HAM NHs

Even MORE reliance on Scourge/Kinetic
- Sure, the Drake/NH/Cerb have always been tied to Kinetic. You want that flavor to continue, by all means. But with 7.5% bonus to kinetic with reduced launchers, the non-kinetic damage of the 1.1 NH is P A T H E T I C. For the love of god, either give it the Hookbill treatment of 7.5% Kinetic and 3.75% Others bonus OR Make the Kinetic bonus 5% and make RoF 10%

Against the appropriate targets, the HAM NHawk does great DPS and has decent projection (compared to say Blaster Astarte) and a good buffer tank, even with XLASBs loaded, you should have in excess of 50k EHP.

Kindly review.
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2054 - 2013-09-19 09:29:05 UTC
Bumping in hopes CCP gets round to eventually fixing this ****. As y'now, they were meant too.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
Guillame Herschel
Buffalo Soldiers
#2055 - 2013-09-27 20:16:26 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Unpinning, 1.1 has been released.


And you ruined the Claymore. Needs 2 CPU upgrades to do the job it did before (but swapping HML for AC).

Before, you could fit 5 T2 AC, 3 T2 links, a T2 invulns with a Lg ASB, T2 tackle, T2 damage mods, T2 DCU. You need nearly perfect fitting skills to do it, but it works without using fitting mods.

Now, to fit the ship equivalently (swapping 5 T2 AC for 5 T2 HML, and dropping one T2 link), 2 CPU upgrades are needed, which wasted two low slots, where none were needed before.

It's even harder to fit with 3 links and 4 HML.


Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#2056 - 2013-09-28 12:09:21 UTC
Only point of using Nighthawk over Tengu is the 5 light drones and use it as shorter range platform. And Nighthawk has a slightly larger buffer also.

Tengu: 472 dps up to 128 km (t1 kin heavies). Missile velocity 13.1 km/s, exp radius 84 m (T1 and T2 hydr bay thrusters, T2 rigor)
Nightawk: 459 dps up to 63 km (T2 RoF rig, t1 kin heavies) exp radius 67 m (t1 rigor) - with 5x hobgoblin II you push the on paper dps up to 558.

These numbers are based on my PvE Tengu and Nighthawk (of which I have not used for a while after cruise missile changes and I fly Nightmare most of the time anyway of late for PvE)
4x CN BCU's on both, full rack of T2 heavy launchers.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Kellasana
FireStar Inc
#2057 - 2013-11-05 17:14:53 UTC
IMHO, leave the Command ships the way they are, except the Eos. make that a Myrm. done. or come out with another T2 type of Battlecruiser and make those all Myrms, Drakes, so on. should be an equal number of hulls for each kind of battlecruiser.