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[Odyssey 1.1] Warfare Links, Mindlinks, Gang bonuses

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Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#961 - 2013-09-04 12:34:10 UTC
Naja Ashei wrote:

First of all, we dont use links in a POS, and its still a risk for the people who dont, simply because they can be scanned down. But with this links nerf small-gang pilots wont be able to go against the odds in the way they can now. Its the only thing I actually enjoy in the damn game. Not to mention as ponder is saying this has just about made my links alts useless, guess ill just start running around with a falcon and logi alt now.


As I understand it, most links weren't nerfed that much, at least if used from command ships. For those using T3s for boosting, well they're supposed to be versatile, not best-in-role.
SkupojHren
State War Academy
Caldari State
#962 - 2013-09-05 21:34:30 UTC
All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 4.8%
T2: 6%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.9%
Former max bonus: 35%

ccp,you lied.its lower than 25.9%

its 24.75%
Cade Windstalker
#963 - 2013-09-05 21:35:45 UTC
SkupojHren wrote:
All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 4.8%
T2: 6%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.9%
Former max bonus: 35%

ccp,you lied.its lower than 25.9%

its 24.75%


Sounds like you're missing a skill to 5 somewhere.
SkupojHren
State War Academy
Caldari State
#964 - 2013-09-05 21:38:32 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
SkupojHren wrote:
All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 4.8%
T2: 6%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.9%
Former max bonus: 35%

ccp,you lied.its lower than 25.9%

its 24.75%


Sounds like you're missing a skill to 5 somewhere.



nope.max skills.also double checked in eft and ingame
Cade Windstalker
#965 - 2013-09-05 21:58:41 UTC
SkupojHren wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
SkupojHren wrote:
All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 4.8%
T2: 6%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.9%
Former max bonus: 35%

ccp,you lied.its lower than 25.9%

its 24.75%


Sounds like you're missing a skill to 5 somewhere.



nope.max skills.also double checked in eft and ingame


I just ran the numbers and the only way I see to get this is if you're boosting with a T3 Cruiser instead of a Command Ship. Those max numbers are for the Command Ships not the T3s.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#966 - 2013-09-06 12:31:25 UTC
The warfare link and command ship changes will be good for eve. Not because of the changes in numbers, but because they will give people the idea of putting command ships in their squads and then going looking for a fight.

What they will find is that arguing over a few percent here and there is pointless since within reason, better commanded fleets generally beat poorly commanded ones, regardless of the ships' modules and bonuses.

Having your fleet focus its firepower in a disciplined way while maintaining correct ranges and transversals is a lot more powerful than any gang link bonus.

There are 2 main tools that facilitate this: good communications and practice, with the latter being the important one.

So, in the words of Mr Elvis Presley,

"A little less talk, a little more action baby!"

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#967 - 2013-09-06 12:39:36 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
SkupojHren wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
SkupojHren wrote:
All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 4.8%
T2: 6%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.9%
Former max bonus: 35%

ccp,you lied.its lower than 25.9%

its 24.75%


Sounds like you're missing a skill to 5 somewhere.



nope.max skills.also double checked in eft and ingame


I just ran the numbers and the only way I see to get this is if you're boosting with a T3 Cruiser instead of a Command Ship. Those max numbers are for the Command Ships not the T3s.


that's a little sad that the CS only adds an extra 1.15% over a T3

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Cade Windstalker
#968 - 2013-09-06 21:32:40 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
that's a little sad that the CS only adds an extra 1.15% over a T3


Technically it's another 5% to the bonus at max skills, but it's also a lot harder to fit and field since it can only run one link by default.

I'm betting this may get some changes either when they play around with Command Coprocessors or when they run T3s through the spin cycle on their rebalance pass.
Jaangel
BLAMBER
#969 - 2013-09-15 10:55:51 UTC
All of the recent and proposed changes to link's make it harder for small gangs to compete with large blobs.

I'm not saying that a 10 man gang should be able to take on a destroy a large 100 man fleet.

BUT

They should be able to disrupt and get a few kills from them using hit and run attacks kiting and ranged attacks.

The changes to links will mean the large blob will be able to support better bonuses(which makes sense kind of) than the small gang. but if the large gang didnt have the links they would barley notice. On the other hand the small gang is now crippled by the fact the large gang has them.

CCP has a current ethos that it wants large headline grabbing fights, while what i want is people to shoot at without having to fly with 90 people i dont like....

I think smaller fast link ships(T3's) should give a larger bonus but only to a limited amount of people say 10-20 while the larger command ships should give a lower bonus but to a lot more people.

If all the current changes go thorugh as currently stated small gangs are going to have to run away from alot more fights they could have previously given a go! You already have to be quiet selective!
Cade Windstalker
#970 - 2013-09-15 11:16:44 UTC
Jaangel wrote:
All of the recent and proposed changes to link's make it harder for small gangs to compete with large blobs.

I'm not saying that a 10 man gang should be able to take on a destroy a large 100 man fleet.

BUT

They should be able to disrupt and get a few kills from them using hit and run attacks kiting and ranged attacks.

The changes to links will mean the large blob will be able to support better bonuses(which makes sense kind of) than the small gang. but if the large gang didnt have the links they would barley notice. On the other hand the small gang is now crippled by the fact the large gang has them.

CCP has a current ethos that it wants large headline grabbing fights, while what i want is people to shoot at without having to fly with 90 people i dont like....

I think smaller fast link ships(T3's) should give a larger bonus but only to a limited amount of people say 10-20 while the larger command ships should give a lower bonus but to a lot more people.

If all the current changes go thorugh as currently stated small gangs are going to have to run away from alot more fights they could have previously given a go! You already have to be quiet selective!


This whole line of logic has never made sense to me. It always seems to assume a big blob with poor fleet comp, no discipline, and poor boosts vs a highly skilled small gang with awesome boosts and great discipline. In that instance the reason you're able to pick off a few kills is through skill, fleet comp, and discipline, not through fleet boosts.

If it was just the fleet boosts then the large fleet with the boosts should just rip you a new one...

For more coherent and eloquent thinking on the matter that I 100% agree with, I direct you to one of the CSM's blogs, in this case Jester's Trek by Ripard Teg. The big on links is halfway down the post and he explains why this whole thing was problematic and his thoughts on the whole "small bonused gang" thing.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#971 - 2013-09-15 16:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
that's a little sad that the CS only adds an extra 1.15% over a T3


Technically it's another 5% to the bonus at max skills, but it's also a lot harder to fit and field since it can only run one link by default.

I'm betting this may get some changes either when they play around with Command Coprocessors or when they run T3s through the spin cycle on their rebalance pass.


well 1.15% to the links themselves is what the 5% comes too.. its too little really just being able to fit upto 3 without Command co processors doesn't seem enough to me .

On a sidenote its still a rather steep cliff to skill for links .... with lv4 skills and T1 links on an T1 bc you still can only gain about 50% of the full potential of a T2 link max potential ... imps, CS lv5 skills etc....

Navy Mindlinks = 400mil or 40-50mil for T2 mindlink to focus on one area e.g. skirmish
CS = 300mil which still only adds upto 1.5% to a link
Training skills lv5 = 6 months maybe depending on imps , remaps etc..

It's all still too much time and isk to get 30% bonus too fleet and if you lose the CS and get podded your losing a good 500mil..

how about making it so a T1 bc with T1 links lv4 skills and perhaps a new cheap T1 mindlink could do 75% -80% for a fraction of the price say 100mil so we don't have too spend at least 6 months and 500mil to get anywhere near the full potential out of links?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Cade Windstalker
#972 - 2013-09-16 04:34:54 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
well 1.15% to the links themselves is what the 5% comes too.. its too little really just being able to fit upto 3 without Command co processors doesn't seem enough to me .

On a sidenote its still a rather steep cliff to skill for links .... with lv4 skills and T1 links on an T1 bc you still can only gain about 50% of the full potential of a T2 link max potential ... imps, CS lv5 skills etc....

Navy Mindlinks = 400mil or 40-50mil for T2 mindlink to focus on one area e.g. skirmish
CS = 300mil which still only adds upto 1.5% to a link
Training skills lv5 = 6 months maybe depending on imps , remaps etc..

It's all still too much time and isk to get 30% bonus too fleet and if you lose the CS and get podded your losing a good 500mil..

how about making it so a T1 bc with T1 links lv4 skills and perhaps a new cheap T1 mindlink could do 75% -80% for a fraction of the price say 100mil so we don't have too spend at least 6 months and 500mil to get anywhere near the full potential out of links?


Just in-case the previous post was ambiguous I meant that T3s are significantly harder to fit with large numbers of links, not Command Ships, and I'm not just talking about the 3 links vs 1 link aspect. Just in general they're easier to fit and still have things like a tank.

With a T1 BC you can still buy a T1 mindlink, which doesn't actually have any difference from the bonus on a Navy Mindlink beyond that it only bonuses 1 type of link, so you can already close that gap to 75% effectiveness. Plus it's far less than six months to bonus one link with high skills from a Battlecruiser, and the gap between that T1 Battlecruiser with 4s and a full Command Ship with 5s is significantly lower than it was before the changes, the change to Warfare Link Specialist alone was huge (100% bonus per level X )

I would also argue that Command Ships and high level skills need to offer a significant benefit or no one is going to bother to train them, but that the benefit should not be so significant that these bonuses are considered a requirement for an effective fleet.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#973 - 2013-09-17 16:22:13 UTC
well considering that my char has lv4 skill on skirmish warfare specialist and warfare specialist i can still only get 14.1 % on skirmish link - Rapid deployment..

max 30% with T2 link imps , CS
i have 14.1% with T1 link on T1 bc no imps

now toss it onto my CS lv5 i still only get 16.2 %

16.2/30

is what 55% out of 100% and this has taken many months on my now nearly 3 year char which has only had one 6 month break and has always had good attributes and learning implants... still a big cliff in my eyes and these stats back that up

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Cade Windstalker
#974 - 2013-09-18 16:32:44 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
well considering that my char has lv4 skill on skirmish warfare specialist and warfare specialist i can still only get 14.1 % on skirmish link - Rapid deployment..

max 30% with T2 link imps , CS
i have 14.1% with T1 link on T1 bc no imps

now toss it onto my CS lv5 i still only get 16.2 %

16.2/30

is what 55% out of 100% and this has taken many months on my now nearly 3 year char which has only had one 6 month break and has always had good attributes and learning implants... still a big cliff in my eyes and these stats back that up


Your biggest problem there is no implant, that has always been and still is a pretty big part of the command bonus. In this case a flat 25% of the final result, so not having that is part of your problem. With it you should get up over 20% with just your current skills.

The difference between level 4 skills on a T1 BC and level 5s on a Command Ship is pretty large, but the difference between 5s on a Command Ship and 5s on a Battlecruiser isn't that big. Overall this ends up being a much more gradual progression up the skill tree for link bonuses than the massive cliff from things like the old Warfare Link Specialization skill.

The point here was to make T1 boosting more viable and make the progression more linear and less of a cliff at the end. Not to make it so you don't need to bother with level 5 skills eventually.

For reference, some numbers (for the Interdiction Maneuvers Link):


  • Max bonus, T2 link, all 5s: 34.5%
  • T2 Link, no Command Ship: 30%
  • T2 Link, other skills at 4: 29.4
  • T1 Link, all 5s: 27.6%
  • T1 Link, all 4s, Command Ship: 21.95%
  • T1 Link, all 4s, T1 BC: 19.6%
  • T1 Link, all 4s, T1 BC, no Mindlink: 15.68%
Peter Cephas
The Restless Masquerade
#975 - 2013-09-24 01:53:35 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Quote:
The Warfare Processors will now provide a 2% increase in the strength of warfare links per level of their racial defensive subsystem skill. They will also now provide bonuses to three different types of gang links:
Loki: Siege, Armored, Skirmish
Proteus: Armored, Skirmish, Information
Tengu: Siege, Skirmish, Information
Legion: Armored, Skirmish, Information

Not balanced at all:
skirmish - 4 bonuses (all races)
siege - 2 bonuses
armored and information - 3 bonuses.

Swap skirmish bonus on Proteus with siege (there are shield fit gallente ships) to balance things out.


I was wondering who else would catch this!

Balance, balance, balance.




Admiral Douros wrote:
Armor and web nerfs are going to hit wormhole groups pretty hard. Capital escalations are already fairly difficult -- nerfing armor resistances and rep amounts is going to make them even harder, and going with a Damnation for max armor boosts means that a Loki is only going to be able to web to ~40km (maybe less, I haven't run the numbers yet).

Have you considered maybe giving a bonus to warfare links in wormholes? It seems like these changes were designed without wspace in mind, and I'm a big fan of them for kspace PVP and PVE, but I think some attention needs to be paid to wspace implications.


I rarely agree with a goon (it's a matter of principle), but this guy is spot on.


Cap escalations is not that hard, even with the new boosts.
And dont use a loki the, use 2x rapiers with TP and webs and you got the range.

And yes, you can armortank a loki to survive c5 and c6.