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[Odyssey 1.1] Warfare Links, Mindlinks, Gang bonuses

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Jack Jab
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#921 - 2013-08-29 18:39:45 UTC
Is there any compensation for people already using mind links? I find it would be fair to have some bonus added to the existing
mind links so that the 1.4B I paid for mining mindlink couple months back, wont be for nothing.

Just placing a relatively fixed price that low, and then having everything on par sounds unfair for people already owning them.
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#922 - 2013-08-29 18:56:02 UTC
Jack Jab wrote:
Is there any compensation for people already using mind links? I find it would be fair to have some bonus added to the existing
mind links so that the 1.4B I paid for mining mindlink couple months back, wont be for nothing.

Just placing a relatively fixed price that low, and then having everything on par sounds unfair for people already owning them.

Well, didn't you use it for the last months when the other guys couldn't buy it? So you already have your compensation there...
Harry Juana
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#923 - 2013-08-29 21:40:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Juana
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Harry Juana wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Lexar Mundi wrote:
Mining links should not be given special treatment...

Give them an ORE battlecruiser size ship to run links on or something but to let them run links inside shield is pretty lame.


We do intend to move mining links out of forcefields someday, but we'll want to rebalance the Orca and Rorqual first to make putting them on grid more viable first.


Can you please explain what is wrong with mining boost from a pos?

I don't think you will find anyone crazy enough to deploy a rorq on grid.


Unless they balance the Roqual so that it's either survivable enough, cheap enough, or gives a big enough bonus to make that worth it...

Or hell, maybe all three? Big smile


Will the rorq be able to tank 30 to 50 man (blops) gangs? Will it get some sort of a weapon like a doomsday to blow them up? And what am I supposed to do with my rorq on grid, even if it is cloaked, and a hot dropper decides to cloaky camp my system? let it die? stay on 24/7 untill the camper gets bored?

Will cloaking get nerfed, ehh rebalanced?
After the blops rebalancing ppl get hot dropped every day without virtually nothing to counter the droppers as they cloak up and cyno out. You call this rebalancing ccp? Should we not at least get a fair chance to blow them up as well? Sure we can bait them but a good cyno will smell a trap xx jumps away.

I thought ccp had the intention to make mining in null sec more profitable and attractive to new players, seems they lied.
Prices of megacyte and zydrine have never been this low for as far as I can remember.
Low sec ores like hedbergite and hemorphite are still more profitable to mine than ABC-M.
With rats still in the clusters (former hidden belts) I can not anti-gank fit my hulk and can get blown up by the first ganker that flies by. And even when I manage to warp out they probably will blow up my cans because they are upset that I got away. And now you want me to risk my rorq too? Where is the risk vs. reward in this? And how is this balanced?

Heck, i don't want to mine anymore already, which means I can close the accounts for my rorq and my mining alt. But I am sure ccp does not care about getting 30 of my euros less monthly either.
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#924 - 2013-08-29 21:53:38 UTC
I think your concerns about the rorqual are valid, but bear in mind that ccp have no intention of disabling off-grid mining boosts, at least for now.

I'd personally like to see a world where it was possible to mine with on-grid bonuses, but I think before that could possibly happen there would need to be a long hard look at cyno, covert cyno and bridging mechanics.

They currently all make it far too easy to bring an overwhelming fleet with almost no warning or possibility of escape.

Ironically, the only place I can see that a rorqual can be used on grid with a degree of certainty that it will come home is in a wormhole system (with appropriate scouts etc) since cynos and bridges do not happen there.

It saddens me a little that the most use we ever gave our rorqual was salvaging C5 sleeper wrecks while the dreadnoughts were creating them. It was ludicrous! We also used it in pvp a little (the owner was a little nuts... Smile)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Cade Windstalker
#925 - 2013-08-29 23:01:22 UTC
Jack Jab wrote:
Is there any compensation for people already using mind links? I find it would be fair to have some bonus added to the existing
mind links so that the 1.4B I paid for mining mindlink couple months back, wont be for nothing.

Just placing a relatively fixed price that low, and then having everything on par sounds unfair for people already owning them.


Such is Eve.

I just finished Marauders to 3 but I'm not going to start whining about getting my training back if the Marauder changes go in a direction I don't like.

As someone else pointed out, you've had that mining link for a month more than everyone else. Maybe it was worth it and maybe it wasn't but that's not really CCP's problem. If you couldn't afford it you wouldn't have bought it.

Harry Juana wrote:
Will the rorq be able to tank 30 to 50 man (blops) gangs? Will it get some sort of a weapon like a doomsday to blow them up? And what am I supposed to do with my rorq on grid, even if it is cloaked, and a hot dropper decides to cloaky camp my system? let it die? stay on 24/7 untill the camper gets bored?

Will cloaking get nerfed, ehh rebalanced?
After the blops rebalancing ppl get hot dropped every day without virtually nothing to counter the droppers as they cloak up and cyno out. You call this rebalancing ccp? Should we not at least get a fair chance to blow them up as well? Sure we can bait them but a good cyno will smell a trap xx jumps away.

I thought ccp had the intention to make mining in null sec more profitable and attractive to new players, seems they lied.
Prices of megacyte and zydrine have never been this low for as far as I can remember.
Low sec ores like hedbergite and hemorphite are still more profitable to mine than ABC-M.
With rats still in the clusters (former hidden belts) I can not anti-gank fit my hulk and can get blown up by the first ganker that flies by. And even when I manage to warp out they probably will blow up my cans because they are upset that I got away. And now you want me to risk my rorq too? Where is the risk vs. reward in this? And how is this balanced?

Heck, i don't want to mine anymore already, which means I can close the accounts for my rorq and my mining alt. But I am sure ccp does not care about getting 30 of my euros less monthly either.



So, one you seem to be just a bit paranoid about covert-ops ships.

Cloaking is an ongoing discussion, this is not the thread for it.

Going back to your first points in no particular order:


  • I doubt it will ever be able to tank enough that it's not gankable, that's not the point.
  • I do suspect though that CCP will find a risk/reward balance that they feel is appropriate for it though. Whether or not this will mean you solo-boosting with your Rorqual is a good idea or not is another thing entirely. As a gang-boosting ship it's not really intended to be risk efficient for boosting a single miner.
Harry Juana
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#926 - 2013-08-30 06:19:14 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I think your concerns about the rorqual are valid, but bear in mind that ccp have no intention of disabling off-grid mining boosts, at least for now.

I'd personally like to see a world where it was possible to mine with on-grid bonuses, but I think before that could possibly happen there would need to be a long hard look at cyno, covert cyno and bridging mechanics.

They currently all make it far too easy to bring an overwhelming fleet with almost no warning or possibility of escape.

Ironically, the only place I can see that a rorqual can be used on grid with a degree of certainty that it will come home is in a wormhole system (with appropriate scouts etc) since cynos and bridges do not happen there.

It saddens me a little that the most use we ever gave our rorqual was salvaging C5 sleeper wrecks while the dreadnoughts were creating them. It was ludicrous! We also used it in pvp a little (the owner was a little nuts... Smile)



Thank you for your response, it is nice to see that at least some1 is sharing my concerns somewhat. But tbh I would rather hear something form ccp themselves about this subject. That ccp has the intention to remove off-grid boosting for mining is reason enough for me to be worried about where this all will be going.

I would like to hear from ccp why off-grid mining boosting is wrong and why it needs to be rebalanced.
The only reason I can think of is to provide the army of gankers and hot droppers with even more easy kills.
Speaking of which, the reason that I have time to write this is because there are at least 3 cov op cynos (and just as many gangs) active in my neighbourhood right now. And without any effective measures to counter these gangs (rebalance this pls ccp) I have no choice other than to sit in my pos untill they get bored and go away. Did I mention that I am slowly losing interest in this game?

Without rebalancing blops gangs and giving us a way to counter these overpowered gangs there is nothing balanced about this game and on-grid mining boosting should be out of the question.

I think everything is fine and balanced enough as it is, mining has become just as dangerous as ratting.
Now if the reward for mining would be the same as for ratting (risk vs. reward) then things would be really balanced :)

Here is my interpretation about what ccp means by rebalancing (at least for the carebear part of it):
Make it harder for ppl to make isk while at the same time make it easier to kill ppl that are trying to make isk.

Oh hey, maybe I should reskill my alts for blops and join the ranks and just gank every carebear I see silly untill he cries and ragequits. Beats sitting in my pos for sure and is probably more profitable as well than mining with all the down time. Soon we can call this game gankers online, cloaky camping online, blops online or whatever.
We should not forget that miners are the corner stone of eve, without them a simple frig wil cost +100mil or we will all be flying around in our rookie ships. Just my 2c.
Cade Windstalker
#927 - 2013-08-30 06:39:24 UTC
Harry Juana wrote:
Thank you for your response, it is nice to see that at least some1 is sharing my concerns somewhat. But tbh I would rather hear something form ccp themselves about this subject. That ccp has the intention to remove off-grid boosting for mining is reason enough for me to be worried about where this all will be going.

I would like to hear from ccp why off-grid mining boosting is wrong and why it needs to be rebalanced.
The only reason I can think of is to provide the army of gankers and hot droppers with even more easy kills.
Speaking of which, the reason that I have time to write this is because there are at least 3 cov op cynos (and just as many gangs) active in my neighbourhood right now. And without any effective measures to counter these gangs (rebalance this pls ccp) I have no choice other than to sit in my pos untill they get bored and go away. Did I mention that I am slowly losing interest in this game?

Without rebalancing blops gangs and giving us a way to counter these overpowered gangs there is nothing balanced about this game and on-grid mining boosting should be out of the question.

I think everything is fine and balanced enough as it is, mining has become just as dangerous as ratting.
Now if the reward for mining would be the same as for ratting (risk vs. reward) then things would be really balanced :)

Here is my interpretation about what ccp means by rebalancing (at least for the carebear part of it):
Make it harder for ppl to make isk while at the same time make it easier to kill ppl that are trying to make isk.

Oh hey, maybe I should reskill my alts for blops and join the ranks and just gank every carebear I see silly untill he cries and ragequits. Beats sitting in my pos for sure and is probably more profitable as well than mining with all the down time. Soon we can call this game gankers online, cloaky camping online, blops online or whatever.
We should not forget that miners are the corner stone of eve, without them a simple frig wil cost +100mil or we will all be flying around in our rookie ships. Just my 2c.


We are repeating things that CCP have said as to why boosts are being pushed on-grid. They are currently very high reward for little to no risk, whether that's mining or combat boosting and that's not what Eve is about.

If you want a counter to BLOPS gangs then I suggest finding friends who like to hunt such things or join up with a large null-sec group that's recruiting industrialists and will protect them (everyone likes when the bait is helping make your replacement ships after all). Alternatively you could find a wormhole corp to take you in, same principal, no hot-drops.

If you somehow feel that you should be able to, as a miner without using a combat ship, completely interdict an enemy force... well that's kind of unrealistic. They are working together to kill you and you should have to work together to kill them. This is not a solo-man's game.

If you want low risk for your reward then that's what High Sec space is for.
Harry Juana
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#928 - 2013-08-30 06:48:05 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

So, one you seem to be just a bit paranoid about covert-ops ships.

Cloaking is an ongoing discussion, this is not the thread for it.

Going back to your first points in no particular order:


  • I doubt it will ever be able to tank enough that it's not gankable, that's not the point.
  • I do suspect though that CCP will find a risk/reward balance that they feel is appropriate for it though. Whether or not this will mean you solo-boosting with your Rorqual is a good idea or not is another thing entirely. As a gang-boosting ship it's not really intended to be risk efficient for boosting a single miner.


First off, I am not paraoid about cloaking, I just think it needs to be rebalanced as well, which makes this the appropriate thread to post my concerns regarding on-grid mining boosting and the frequency of the now o so popular blops gangs.
Second I am not a solo miner, I have hosted big mining fleets but numbers have been dropping lately beacuse of said cloaky camping, ganking.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#929 - 2013-08-30 06:51:33 UTC
Mine in high sec for safety. Ore may not be worth as much but you won't have to jeopardize a rorq! You'll noticate that your profits won't change much if any.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment

Cade Windstalker
#930 - 2013-08-30 06:59:56 UTC
Harry Juana wrote:

First off, I am not paraoid about cloaking, I just think it needs to be rebalanced as well, which makes this the appropriate thread to post my concerns regarding on-grid mining boosting and the frequency of the now o so popular blops gangs.
Second I am not a solo miner, I have hosted big mining fleets but numbers have been dropping lately beacuse of said cloaky camping, ganking.


Sounds like your big mining fleet needs protection or to move to high-sec or wormhole space, away from such gangs.

Cloaking and stealth mechanics in general do not seem to be in for any spectacular change any time in the near term if ever. If CCP manage to come up with a good fix that leaves them still useful then they will probably implement it but over 2 years of complaints and player suggestions have not yielded anything so far.
Harry Juana
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#931 - 2013-08-30 07:39:28 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Mine in high sec for safety. Ore may not be worth as much but you won't have to jeopardize a rorq! You'll noticate that your profits won't change much if any.


That is the point, The risk vs reward of mining in null sec is long gone. Not long ago you could even make more money mining scordite in hi sec. In null sec you just make a little more than in hi sec (even with rorq boost) while you have much bigger risks, especially post Odyssee where the hidden belts are gone and miners are now just (even easier targets because they can't shoot back) as easy targets than ratters. Ratters however make much better money. Adding another risk like on-grid boosting will even further lower the reward for mining.
Harry Juana
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#932 - 2013-08-30 08:12:33 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

We are repeating things that CCP have said as to why boosts are being pushed on-grid. They are currently very high reward for little to no risk, whether that's mining or combat boosting and that's not what Eve is about.


For mining they are not, in null sec you just make a little more than mining in hi sec while the risks are much bigger, certainly post Odyssee. Addng on-grid mining boosts will only furhter unbalance this.

Quote:

If you want a counter to BLOPS gangs then I suggest finding friends who like to hunt such things or join up with a large null-sec group that's recruiting industrialists and will protect them (everyone likes when the bait is helping make your replacement ships after all). Alternatively you could find a wormhole corp to take you in, same principal, no hot-drops.


I am part of a large null sec group, we do hunt these gangs with a passion. But do you have any idea what it takes to trap these gangs? Or even their cynos? With hit and run (read bridge in and out) tactics these gangs are long gone before we can even form up a fleet to counter them. And even if we do they just cloak up and bridge out. And where will I hire protection and how will I pay them while we are constantly at war with pvp pliots deployed? This shows that the risks of mining in null sec are already big enough without having to add more risks.

Quote:

If you somehow feel that you should be able to, as a miner without using a combat ship, completely interdict an enemy force... well that's kind of unrealistic. They are working together to kill you and you should have to work together to kill them. This is not a solo-man's game.


You sould not have taken that literally but more as an example of current situation. I am surely no solo player, you can not be in null sec

Flextra Aurilen
Deutsche Lichtbringer AG
The Bastion
#933 - 2013-08-30 13:40:40 UTC
I just read the changelog and I guess it has been mentioned already, but digging through 1k posts is kind of exhausting ... so, with the update, it's possible to buy T2 mindlinks in the LP store for just 20k SP and 20m isk. Does it really mean, we can buy the Mining Foreman Mindlink implant for just 20m ISK and that absurdly low 20k SP?! I mean, I just bought the implant for 1.2 bil 2-3 months ago before we every knew that it will be in the LP store...
Mara Maken
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#934 - 2013-08-30 14:35:49 UTC
How do Navy Mindlinks work on strategic cruisers? The patch notes say they boost two links based on the command ship bonus but strategic cruisers have three bonuses.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#935 - 2013-08-30 14:41:40 UTC
Mara Maken wrote:
How do Navy Mindlinks work on strategic cruisers? The patch notes say they boost two links based on the command ship bonus but strategic cruisers have three bonuses.


One shall stand, one shall fall. - Optimus Prime

Blink
Cade Windstalker
#936 - 2013-08-30 21:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Mara Maken wrote:
How do Navy Mindlinks work on strategic cruisers? The patch notes say they boost two links based on the command ship bonus but strategic cruisers have three bonuses.


Each Navy Mindlink boosts the 2 links associated with that race's command ship by the same amount as a T2 Mind-Link. For a T3 Cruiser this works the same as if you had a mind-link boosting only one stat. You get 2 types of links boosted and one that is not.

Harry Juana wrote:
For mining they are not, in null sec you just make a little more than mining in hi sec while the risks are much bigger, certainly post Odyssee. Addng on-grid mining boosts will only furhter unbalance this.


I'm not talking about mining in Null vs mining in High Sec, I'm talking about mining with boosts vs mining without them. While your Rorqual is tucked away in its POS boosting you're getting +95.7% (post patch) to ore yield, along with 42.2% to capacitor use and laser range. The last two are nice but that ~100% bonus is a huge boost, it doubles the income of everyone in the boosting fleet.

If you don't consider that a big reward then I don't quite know what your definition of "big reward" is...

Harry Juana wrote:
You sould not have taken that literally but more as an example of current situation. I am surely no solo player, you can not be in null sec


I stand corrected.

Harry Juana wrote:
I am part of a large null sec group, we do hunt these gangs with a passion. But do you have any idea what it takes to trap these gangs? Or even their cynos? With hit and run (read bridge in and out) tactics these gangs are long gone before we can even form up a fleet to counter them. And even if we do they just cloak up and bridge out. And where will I hire protection and how will I pay them while we are constantly at war with pvp pliots deployed? This shows that the risks of mining in null sec are already big enough without having to add more risks.


I think you aren't thinking big enough here. They are talking about re-balancing two entire ships when they move links on grid. Since these ships are directly tied to rock mining and therefore the economy I find it hard to believe that they won't be looking at balancing the cost of what you are risking along with the rewards.

This may mean lowering the cost of the Rorqual and/or the Orca, it may mean increasing the benefits of having them on-grid, and it may mean giving them new abilities and functionality to make them more attractive to have on-grid.

I don't think you'd be complaining so loudly if they, say, halved the cost, gave it a bigger cargo capacity, let it mount an local-grid only Cyno-Jammer, let it bonus Siege Links, and increased the mining boost amount.

You just seem to have so little faith in CCP that you think they are going to completely ignore your concerns and those of every other minor, shove the Roqual on-grid without a second glance, and then run off laughing like maniacs because they screwed over the base-line profession that keeps their game running.... all after they said they're going to re-balance these ships before pushing them on-grid.
Red Thought
Forever Winter
#937 - 2013-08-31 03:36:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Thought
CCP I really wish you would stop messing with this games balance so much. I understand that boosts are perhaps a bit overpowered, maybe. However, with these new changes and proposed changes in the future my second account will loose much of its value to me. I have spent 2 years, and 360$ funding game time on that account. It's only two purposes are to off grid boost and scout. I will never use this toon as an on grid booster, as i don't want to manage two on grid toons at once. My main never bother training boosting because i had an alt account. When making such drastic changes perhaps you should offer players that pay money for this game a refund on skill points when making such drastic changes. Or perhaps all my leaderships skills on my alt account could be added to my main accounts toon, so that i could actually on grid boost. Now i am faced with the choice of forgeting about boosting or training it on this toon........ I have almost 70 mil sp now and really don't want to spend another 15 mil on leadership yet again, when i have so much left that I want to train for.
Cade Windstalker
#938 - 2013-08-31 10:57:58 UTC
Red Thought wrote:
CCP I really wish you would stop messing with this games balance so much. I understand that boosts are perhaps a bit overpowered, maybe. However, with these new changes and proposed changes in the future my second account will loose much of its value to me. I have spent 2 years, and 360$ funding game time on that account. It's only two purposes are to off grid boost and scout. I will never use this toon as an on grid booster, as i don't want to manage two on grid toons at once. My main never bother training boosting because i had an alt account. When making such drastic changes perhaps you should offer players that pay money for this game a refund on skill points when making such drastic changes. Or perhaps all my leaderships skills on my alt account could be added to my main accounts toon, so that i could actually on grid boost. Now i am faced with the choice of forgeting about boosting or training it on this toon........ I have almost 70 mil sp now and really don't want to spend another 15 mil on leadership yet again, when i have so much left that I want to train for.


I suggest either selling your OGB toon while it's still worth a fair amount of money or training it toward combat skills. Either way the intent behind this is over a year old at this point, if not older.

There is no requirement, anywhere, that CCP refund you for something you have gotten use out of because they decide that it is imbalanced. If you were to buy all the skill-books the day before the change went into effect you might have a leg to stand on for getting a refund on the cost of those books but as things stand this complaint and associated requests are patently ridiculous.

You still have your account, he still has his skills, the fact that you choose not to make use of them is entirely your prerogative.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#939 - 2013-08-31 19:57:48 UTC
I removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Ponder Stuff
Straylight Systems
Who Dares Wins.
#940 - 2013-09-02 10:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ponder Stuff
These changes alone are going to be enough to break eve for me, it has taken me a fair amount of money and time to get 2 boosting accounts running along side my main, the severity of the t3 links nerf has directly cost CCP my subscription for those 2 accounts from the end of the month.

That said I do love the changes to command ships and think that needed doing very badly. I would love to see on grid boosting become a viable option. Sadly all you have done is put more of my isk on the field to be blobbed to death and removed nano tactics from the game as a viable option.

No one in lowsec cares how much links affect the big fleets in 0.0, maybe a stacking nerf to links with the number of people in a fleet would have been a better option, but you have ruined the small gang even more than you did with the bloody t1 logi buff.

Thanks again CCP for costing me less every month i may be able to afford star citizen when it comes out.


And for the record, yes im mad bro.