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[Odyssey 1.1] Warfare Links, Mindlinks, Gang bonuses

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#681 - 2013-08-12 03:08:15 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Cearain wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok update time!



Most of your updates are decent. Could you please take a moment to address why off grid gang links are way more potent than pirate implant sets and drugs? Both of these later items are at real risk of not only being destroyed, but also providing drawbacks to your ship. Meanwhile, links are boosting every ship, with far more potency, from historically, a "safe" place.

P.S. EXCELLENT change with by giving boosters a weapons timer!!!!!


I'm ok with another character being a bigger deal than an implant or a pill.



I'm reposting part of what I said in warfaire and tactics here so that perhaps a dev will read this and understand why so many players hate ogbs.

There are a few reasons why ccp's refusal to deal with ogbs= god mode makes it much easier to do other things with my time. These problems just aren't present from implants or drugs.

1) AltBoosters = Pay to win: Implants and boosters cost isk. (In game currency) They do not require the pay out of real money. Paying for a second account to sit in safe spot in a booster ship does cost real money. Accordingly no matter how much experience I have gained in the market or other isk making in eve that won't matter. I need to pay the extra 15 dollars to get god mode.

I have lots of isk due to learning how to play the game. This has lead to me having 4 clones with pirate implants one set with improved learning implants and another with hg talons. All have various other implants for slots 7-10. I have made as much money from experimenting/learning drugs in eve as i have lost from using them. The ingame economy is a huge boon to eve and learning how to "play" it is a big part of the game.

Play to win with a booster alt pretty much destroys that. That bothers me but I have to say that the extra 15 dollars a month is not in itself prohibitive for me. The other problem is:

2) Alt boosters make the game no fun to play. I think there are 2 general reasons for this.

A) It ruins the immersion. I am not like the mittani where I forget who I am in real life and start thinking I am cearain. But when I am flying around space I do have at least some modicum of immersion that I am a character in a game flying a spaceship. However when i am multiboxing 2 different characters that is completely shot. Completely shot. I am then not a character in a game flying a spaceship, I am a nerd upstairs trying to outspreadsheet other nerds.

B) There is an important difference between a game being challenging and a game just being tedious. Booster alts do not make eve challenging they make it tedious. Finding safespots in all the systems and dragging an alt around everywhere on your roam is not challenging. Any cretin can do that. But it is tedious. Is eve supposed to always be won by the person who can withstand the most tedium?

Drugs and implants are bought with ingame currency and thus are balanced by that currency. If you think implants are risk free
to spend 2.5 billion on a set, ok. use them. I do in low sec and think getting a set should be a goal of new low sec pvpers. Same if you think spending 5 mill isk on a booster that last up to an hour. Having isk to use is part of the game. People *learn* how to make/save isk in eve its a great part of the single shard game and economy.

Using implants and drugs doesn't make the game tedious and it doesn't ruin the immersion of the game either. Booster alts do both.



Buy Plex, swallow some Pills -> Pay2Win




Perhaps you could read the post before responding to it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#682 - 2013-08-12 05:47:31 UTC
I read it but it wouldnt change anything, the definition of Pay2Win is clearly buy stuff using Real Money to get better, i know its hard to accept for some People but trust me buying Plex to get expensive Drugs/Booster or buying an Account to Boost with fleet Booster is the same Problem.

Believe it or not.

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Ehcks Argentus
X LLC
#683 - 2013-08-12 05:51:19 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I read it but it wouldnt change anything, the definition of Pay2Win is clearly buy stuff using Real Money to get better, i know its hard to accept for some People but trust me buying Plex to get expensive Drugs/Booster or buying an Account to Boost with fleet Booster is the same Problem.

Believe it or not.


Buying and selling plex is just skipping normal isk grinding. It doesn't make you any more powerful than you would be if you made isk the normal way.

But running missions for thousands of hours doesn't let you give gang links to an entire fleet with an alt. Only real money does that, either yours or someone else's.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#684 - 2013-08-12 08:37:36 UTC
Ehcks Argentus wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I read it but it wouldnt change anything, the definition of Pay2Win is clearly buy stuff using Real Money to get better, i know its hard to accept for some People but trust me buying Plex to get expensive Drugs/Booster or buying an Account to Boost with fleet Booster is the same Problem.

Believe it or not.


Buying and selling plex is just skipping normal isk grinding. It doesn't make you any more powerful than you would be if you made isk the normal way.

But running missions for thousands of hours doesn't let you give gang links to an entire fleet with an alt. Only real money does that, either yours or someone else's.


Actually, Isk does allow you to do that, since you can buy plex to pay for your account & training to train the character or buy a character off the market that does that also. So everything you have said is possible with isk.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#685 - 2013-08-12 13:59:06 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I read it but it wouldnt change anything, the definition of Pay2Win is clearly buy stuff using Real Money to get better, i know its hard to accept for some People but trust me buying Plex to get expensive Drugs/Booster or buying an Account to Boost with fleet Booster is the same Problem.

Believe it or not.


You say its the same but give no explanation other than "trust me."

I highly doubt people pay ccp 15 dollars a month so they can sell a plex and buy drugs. But I bet many, likely most, booster alt accounts are paid by real money subscriptions. Moreover the people buying drugs are at least buying something made by players in game with in game isk. Extra accounts for god-mode is purely pay to win. There is no in game isk needed at all. Indeed it is inefficient to use ingame isk since there are discounts for longer than 1 month real money subscriptions.

If people gave ccp as much real money for drugs and implants as they did for alt accounts ccp would not make alt accounts so much more powerful.


Still I have a question:

A) Are these bonuses based on the assumption ships need to be ongrid,
Or
B) when the link ships have to be on grid (assuming this is really ccps plan) will the bonuses increase?

If its A then ccp should admit that the bonuses are not currently balanced, and will remain unbalanced until they are forced on grid.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#686 - 2013-08-12 14:04:10 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I read it but it wouldnt change anything, the definition of Pay2Win is clearly buy stuff using Real Money to get better, i know its hard to accept for some People but trust me buying Plex to get expensive Drugs/Booster or buying an Account to Boost with fleet Booster is the same Problem.

Believe it or not.


You say its the same but give no explanation other than "trust me."

I highly doubt people pay ccp 15 dollars a month so they can sell a plex and buy drugs. But I bet many, likely most, booster alt accounts are paid by real money subscriptions. Moreover the people buying drugs are at least buying something made by players in game with in game isk. Extra accounts for god-mode is purely pay to win. There is no in game isk needed at all. Indeed it is inefficient to use ingame isk since there are discounts for longer than 1 month real money subscriptions.

If people gave ccp as much real money for drugs and implants as they did for alt accounts ccp would not make alt accounts so much more powerful.


Still I have a question:

A) Are these bonuses based on the assumption ships need to be ongrid,
Or
B) when the link ships have to be on grid (assuming this is really ccps plan) will the bonuses increase?

If its A then ccp should admit that the bonuses are not currently balanced, and will remain unbalanced until they are forced on grid.



Did I miss and step into the forum of a free to play?

Its not pay to win, you can start and sustain x-accounts indefinitely on plex, hell I bought four plexes out of three hours of scanning around over the weekend. The hilarious part is that wasn't it you saying that you have something like 8-9 billion in jump clones floating around? That will pay for a over a year of subscriptions for an alt account.

Yeech man, HTFU.
Gummi Worm
Tarot Club
#687 - 2013-08-12 15:56:26 UTC
You will kill smal gang,
Now big alliance don't care about them, they work with numbers not with quality.

I don't know why everything ccp wanna nerf everything that they build, if you wanna nerf you can add fuel consumption for gang assist modules instead to give them less power.
Florian Kuehne
Tech3 Company
#688 - 2013-08-12 17:33:06 UTC
lol RIP armor & shield links why are u doing this??

I thought u want to make some changes to the whole commandships thing and now u bossting the ships itself but reducing the links wtf
PrettyPollock
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#689 - 2013-08-12 18:51:45 UTC
WOW. Fozzie, you're single-handedly turning eve into a peanut-butter smooth, balanced-to-boredom piece of garbage. I hope your passes on the faction vessels and battleships are a long way out. Evil
Ubat Batuk
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#690 - 2013-08-12 22:25:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ubat Batuk
Pure and simple nerf to the good stuff. Not sure what you think you have achieved here...

I am waiting for some proper expansion stuff... waiting for a long while already. Since Dust and WoD, you focus on adjusting configuration stuff, getting people pissed off instead of adding some good stuff.
Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#691 - 2013-08-12 22:44:56 UTC
you guys are a bunch of whiners. adapt or die

"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#692 - 2013-08-13 00:14:48 UTC
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Pure and simple nerf to the good stuff. Not sure what you think you have achieved here...

I am waiting for some proper expansion stuff... waiting for a long while already. Since Dust and WoD, you focus on adjusting configuration stuff, getting people pissed off instead of adding some good stuff.

this is not an expansion. this is an update. hence, the "1.1" in odyssey 1.1.

wait for the winter expansion.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#693 - 2013-08-13 00:19:44 UTC
60 s timer is bs if it creates it's own timer, so what you can't deag under links now? Make it inherit the timer from people in fleet, but creating one on it's own is complete rubbish.

In that case activating an rr module should also give you a 60s timer, not just inherit the one from the repee. I used to always put my links on grid so idiots could shoot them and get gate guns as I laugh at them with my 100mn ab and tank, but now I'll always leave them off grid, congrats on worsening the problem of off grid links.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
mighty1
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#694 - 2013-08-13 11:38:09 UTC
Are you smoking crack fossie.....I find this a joke to nerf boosts as I spent a year on a boosting toon for you to change it so if this does go ahead i'l be finding a new game to play and I prolly won't be alone. Instead of trying to ruin every aspect off EVE why don't you ask what we want as we are the players and paying customers.
Mr Doctor
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#695 - 2013-08-13 11:55:41 UTC
We've known this was coming for well over a year now. Man up and stop crying. I have a char with max gang link skills and this change is great.

If they ask you what you want you'd say invulnerable ships and free isk for you.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#696 - 2013-08-13 13:14:47 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I read it but it wouldnt change anything, the definition of Pay2Win is clearly buy stuff using Real Money to get better, i know its hard to accept for some People but trust me buying Plex to get expensive Drugs/Booster or buying an Account to Boost with fleet Booster is the same Problem.

Believe it or not.



Don't waste your time talking to this kind of individual, how can you even try to discuss with someone refusing to admit elemental thinking:

Buy plex = acquisition= change real money for a virtual good
Buy toon= acquisition = change plex for an in game item or items (toon/ship/links/implants)

But nope, the guy didn't pay to win, in fact when he pays for the plex and then the toon he actually gets the money like his ideas and arguments, out of his ass once he takes the Avatar he puts in all day long. These dudes should stop on drugs or whatever they take.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#697 - 2013-08-13 13:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Onictus wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I read it but it wouldnt change anything, the definition of Pay2Win is clearly buy stuff using Real Money to get better, i know its hard to accept for some People but trust me buying Plex to get expensive Drugs/Booster or buying an Account to Boost with fleet Booster is the same Problem.

Believe it or not.


You say its the same but give no explanation other than "trust me."

I highly doubt people pay ccp 15 dollars a month so they can sell a plex and buy drugs. But I bet many, likely most, booster alt accounts are paid by real money subscriptions. Moreover the people buying drugs are at least buying something made by players in game with in game isk. Extra accounts for god-mode is purely pay to win. There is no in game isk needed at all. Indeed it is inefficient to use ingame isk since there are discounts for longer than 1 month real money subscriptions.

If people gave ccp as much real money for drugs and implants as they did for alt accounts ccp would not make alt accounts so much more powerful.


Still I have a question:

A) Are these bonuses based on the assumption ships need to be ongrid,
Or
B) when the link ships have to be on grid (assuming this is really ccps plan) will the bonuses increase?

If its A then ccp should admit that the bonuses are not currently balanced, and will remain unbalanced until they are forced on grid.



Did I miss and step into the forum of a free to play?

Its not pay to win, you can start and sustain x-accounts indefinitely on plex, hell I bought four plexes out of three hours of scanning around over the weekend. The hilarious part is that wasn't it you saying that you have something like 8-9 billion in jump clones floating around? That will pay for a over a year of subscriptions for an alt account.

Yeech man, HTFU.


The point is you can get the link alt without ever interacting with the eve economy. Just pay real money to ccp and you get your alt.

That is why there is no difference between this and gold ammo.

I like the way you say htfu because I am not interested in dragging a link alt around with me on roams. That is the sort of pathetic behaviour ccp is rewarding by this mechanic.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#698 - 2013-08-13 14:04:47 UTC
mighty1 wrote:
Are you smoking crack fossie.....I find this a joke to nerf boosts as I spent a year on a boosting toon for you to change it so if this does go ahead i'l be finding a new game to play and I prolly won't be alone. Instead of trying to ruin every aspect off EVE why don't you ask what we want as we are the players and paying customers.

So you started training it after it was announced that work had commenced on taking links on-grid and reducing their power to be compliance with Eve's risk/reward dogma? And you are complaining about what exactly?

What's your poison:
- Link platforms are becoming gank mobiles even when carrying links so Incursions are covered.
- Mining hasn't even been addressed so there is still ample time to make changes to mining link platforms before they come on-grid.
- Blobs will have more incentive to risk stuff (read: capitals) to ensure link availability when they come on-grid and will somehow have to muddle through with a less than 20% decrease in their boosts that apply to up to 250 people .. orbiting a POS is a nerf to AFK only and irrelevant.
- Solo => Medium gangs will be tons more fun and fights will be more readily available once links come on-grid as one can no longer hide the doubling of combat efficiency that links represent, making fights either lopsided (technically ganks, not fights) or non-existent because :possiblelinks:.
- Worm-folk .. see Incursions at top.

In short: There is nothing to complain about, except the ability to provide over-the-top augments while AFK sometime in the future.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#699 - 2013-08-13 14:08:24 UTC
Cearain wrote:


I like the way you say htfu because I am not interested in dragging a link alt around with me on roams. That is the sort of pathetic behaviour ccp is rewarding by this mechanic.


That's not pay to win, that is you lazy.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#700 - 2013-08-13 14:29:02 UTC
mighty1 wrote:
Are you smoking crack fossie.....I find this a joke to nerf boosts as I spent a year on a boosting toon for you to change it so if this does go ahead i'l be finding a new game to play and I prolly won't be alone. Instead of trying to ruin every aspect off EVE why don't you ask what we want as we are the players and paying customers.

did you ever consider others might want boosts on grid? or did you really mean,"ask me what i want before you change things I like". And im getting real tired of people whining about how they train for something so it should never be changed or they pay for this game so it should cater to them. If you find you cannot enjoy a game because you can't afk POS a boosting alt then it really sucks to be you.