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[Odyssey 1.1] Warfare Links, Mindlinks, Gang bonuses

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Scrutt5
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#461 - 2013-08-05 05:52:39 UTC
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
Congratulations Fozzie you have just:

1. Reduced the chances Soloers have actively fighting small gang.
2. Stopped Small gangs fighting Larger gangs without using bombers, or snipers @ 200km.

But heh, I guess no one cares about the small guys when you run a business, as they don't bring in so much revenue.

I actually thought when you first released these "ideas" that you were all high.





Your NOT solo using an off grid booster !
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#462 - 2013-08-05 05:55:27 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I have to agree with whoever suggested that command processors be turned into rigs.
That would give:
Command ships 5 links
T3 4 links
Battle cruisers 4 links

I don't think there would be a need for a penalty for them as they are a very specific module.


+1
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#463 - 2013-08-05 06:03:55 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 14%
T2: 16%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 24%
Former max bonus: 35%



Does anyone else think this is a better proposal than the OP?


TBH, no....

The cumulative benefit of defensive (Siege and Armor) has NO BUSINESS being more effective than pirate implants and drugs.

Full Crystal Set: +54% Shield Boosts.
Standard / Improved / Strong Blue Pill: + 20% / 25% / 30% Shield Boosts.

Shield Harmonizing: 24% Resists = 1 / .76 = 31.5% Effective Increase to Shield Boosts.
Active Shielding: 24% Rate of Boosts = 1 / .76 = 31.5% Effective Increase to Shield Boosting.

Cumulative Effect of the three Siege Links = 1.315*1.315 = 1.73 = 73% Effective Increase in Reps.

This is way to high!!!! Reduce Defensive links to 12.5% maximum bonus. This will put their cumulative rep bonus at 30%, which is pretty much where it should be, at least until Boosters are forced On Grid.


well 24% is lower than fozzies proposal in OP and the post was asking is it better than the OP version .. so the answer would be yes... it seems to me that the drugs/implants could do with a nerf aswell


You are right, that 24% is a better number than 25%. but still way, way too high...

As for Drugs: Drugs have some major drawbacks that are chance based, and can gimp your ship far more than boost it. I don't think they need any nerfs to their effectiveness.

As for Implants: I have mixed feelings, but they are at least on field, and potentially a big loss mail. TBH, I live in nullsec where Pods die regularly, so blingy implants have a reasonable risk of being lost. The only downside, there is no chance for a crystal/snake/slave set to drop as loot.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#464 - 2013-08-05 06:25:44 UTC
Jooksupoiss Ise wrote:
Dear CCP Fozzie! By me nerf it to null but please reimburse my booster alt IP.



CCP Fozzzie is not nerfing your tràlàlà, he's boosting your social abilities to actually play with other players in this space ship MMO.

If something he's not going far enough on the nerf, as someone proposed sooner make command processor rigs instead of modules with high calibration cost, reduce all links effects or give a drawback when several running so after the first link running all others give ONLY at best 25% ship stats bonus, even then it's still far too powerful in a game where 1% makes the difference.

Once you get free of your dependency of invulnerable alts requiring no attention you actually start thinking a bit more and get more piloting skill, you even get to play with more people and meet really awesome ones.

I've already proposed this a long ago, CCP Fozzie, just scrap those link modules from database, reimburse those SP with a little extra so wynnie kiddos stop complaining.
Reinforce navigation, tanking (mechanics/engineering), electronics, drones, cap skills with new set of specialization skills.

Change command ships for new heavy attack/combat battlecruisers.

Balance done, database cleaned up of one of the worst mechanics in the game and reinforce players decision/skilling choices.
Make this game more dynamic by increasing individual player abilities, not by adding or tweaking a stupid "I win" mechanic, just get rid of it.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#465 - 2013-08-05 09:03:59 UTC


First, I want to go through an example of how the new warfare links will be calculated: This purely an example post, so anyone that doesn't know can follow with the follow up posts that are about to follow:

bonus of gang link =
[base bonus of gang link]
x [ 1+ 0.1 x (level warfare link specialist) ] ( == 1.5 for Warfare Link V Pilots)
x [ 1+ 0.2 x (level in warfare specialist) ] (== 2 for a Warfare Spec V pilots)
x [ mindlink bonus] ( == 1.25 for new Mindlinks )
x [ 1+0.02x(level in t3 ships)] or 1.15 for CS ( == 1.1 for LvL 5 T3 Pilots and 1.15 for CS pilots )

Using Rapid Deployment in a Claymore as an Example: All V, mindlinked Pilot:

Quote:
Skirmish Warfare: Rapid Deployment:
T1: 5.6%
T2: 7%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 30.2%
Former max bonus: 35%


Bonus of gang link =
7%
x 1.5
x 2
x 1.25
x 1.15
= 30.19

Which matches your results.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#466 - 2013-08-05 09:07:20 UTC

Quote:
Skirmish Warfare: Rapid Deployment:
T1: 5.6%
T2: 7%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 30.2%
Former max bonus: 35%


So, a CS gives 30.2%, a t3 gives 28.9%, a Mindlinked BC gives 26.2%, and a non-mindlinked BC will give give a 21% boost

A high-grade snake set provides 24.73% increase in Velocity.
A low-grade snake set provides a 16.02% increase in velocity.

In this example, a single T3/CS link is 20% more effective than giving every member of your fleet a full snake set.

If that booster ship is off grid, how can you possibly justify this imbalance?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#467 - 2013-08-05 09:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Quote:
All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 4.8%
T2: 6%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.9%
Former max bonus: 35%


So, a CS gives 25.875%, a t3 gives 24.75%, a Mindlinked BC gives 22.5%, and a non-mindlinked BC will give give a 18% boost.

The most straight forward comparison: An EANM, with all V's, gives a 25% boost to resists. Initially, these numbers don't seem crazy broken.

In terms of repping, a 25% decreased cycle time = 1 / .75 = 33% boost to reps.

So, a CS gives 34.9%, a t3 gives 32.9%, a Mindlinked BC gives 29.0%, and a non-mindlinked BC will give give a 22% boost to repping with a SINGLE link.

Using all three links squares the bonus so a CS gives 82.0%, a t3 gives 76.6%, a Mindlinked BC gives 66.5%, and a non-mindlinked BC will give give a 48.7% boost to all self repping power, and all remote repping power.

A high-grade crystal set provides 53.63% increase in shield boosting.
A low-grade crystal set provides a 33.83% increase in shield boosting.
A Standard/Improved/Strong Blue/Exile Pill gives a 20/25/30% boost in Shield/Armor boosting.

If you could only run 1 defensive warfare link, these numbers would seem inline with each other. But the reality is all 3 get used, and then their net boosting effect is simply overpowered. How do you justify this level of imbalance for an off grid ship?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#468 - 2013-08-05 09:29:37 UTC
About time you put your money where your mouth has been for so long .. debt has grown to astronomical proportions!

As you move forward and look for ways to make links work for the individual (solo Abso's for the win!) and crack the nut of on/off-grid, I'll urge you to consider just how much a single link is worth. Doubly so now that CC's are able to run two types and have weaponry to boot.

In short: One ship augmenting an entire fleet is wrong, that holds true whether it is anchored on grid as a sacrificial lamb or cowering within a POS. Ideally the maximum should be a squad, but practically the wings are probably a better bet .. only capitals/supercapitals should be able to boost up to the full 250 people.

PS: Kind of miffed that Caldari/Amarr alliance does not get skirmish bonuses but I'll live Big smile
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#469 - 2013-08-05 09:33:58 UTC

Quote:
Skirmish Warfare: Interdiction Maneuvers:
T1: 7.2%
T2: 9%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 38.8%
Former max bonus: 53%


So, a CS gives 38.8%, a t3 gives 37.125%, a Mindlinked BC gives 33.75%, and a non-mindlinked BC will give give a 27% boost.

The standard web increases from 10 Km's to 13.88 km's.
A Fed Navy web is 14 km's.

The standard scram increases from 9 km's to 12.5 km's.
A Domination scram is 11.25 km's.

The T2 point range is increased from 24 km's to 33.3 km's.
A Domination point is 30 km's.

So, the single Mindlink is again more effective than giving every pilot in fleet the best faction tackle modules. In terms of risk & effort vs reward, is this not out of line?
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#470 - 2013-08-05 10:59:38 UTC
Seems to me that this is a nerf to fleets that would use two boosters, and a buf to fleets that would use only 1 booster.

If you were, for example, running an incursion fleet with 1 dedicated mindlinked siege booster and 1 dedicated mindlinked skirmish booster - you will see a significant nerf to your fleet.

If you were running a fleet with only 1 booster... now it can run 6 or even 7 types of links, with 6 of them getting a mindlink and hull bonus.

If you had a single booster before, these changes + navy mindlinks will be an overall buff.
If you were running two boosters, you're getting nerfed.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#471 - 2013-08-05 11:39:19 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
About time you put your money where your mouth has been for so long .. debt has grown to astronomical proportions!

As you move forward and look for ways to make links work for the individual (solo Abso's for the win!) and crack the nut of on/off-grid, I'll urge you to consider just how much a single link is worth. Doubly so now that CC's are able to run two types and have weaponry to boot.

In short: One ship augmenting an entire fleet is wrong, that holds true whether it is anchored on grid as a sacrificial lamb or cowering within a POS. Ideally the maximum should be a squad, but practically the wings are probably a better bet .. only capitals/supercapitals should be able to boost up to the full 250 people.

PS: Kind of miffed that Caldari/Amarr alliance does not get skirmish bonuses but I'll live Big smile


This is a MMORPG, if your able to organize 256 People it should have an advantage for this bunch of Players!

I highly disagree with your opinion, think how long sklling is needed to get, 1 Fleet Commander at V, 5 Wing Commander at V and 25 Squadleaders to V and have Boosters with the skills for Warefare Links... its a !!Year!!

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#472 - 2013-08-05 11:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Verity Sovereign wrote:
...If you had a single booster before, these changes + navy mindlinks will be an overall buff.
If you were running two boosters, you're getting nerfed.

If you keep them outside, sure. But why would you do such a thing when they can push out more than respectable dps (sans the Damnation) and have above average tanks even when fielding links?

Composition of your PvE fleets will change, but efficiency will remain the same or even improve dependent on choices .. hardly a nerf (Ex: Nighthawk will have same damage and more tank while running twin links (siege/info)). Same applies to pretty much all the revised CC's.
Hell, you in your case with a shield based crew you could probably get away with a pure Claymore spam with Basilisk focusing on cap transfers rather than shield ditto to make the most of free stuff (cap) and the local tank buff that has also been announced.
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
...I highly disagree with your opinion, think how long sklling is needed to get, 1 Fleet Commander at V, 5 Wing Commander at V and 25 Squadleaders to V and have Boosters with the skills for Warefare Links... its a !!Year!!

Disagreeing is your prerogative but know that skill time and ISK has never, and hopefully will never, be a factor .. if it was then you'd have a "insert generic MMO name" type of progression where anyone wielding the +5 Sword of Doom wins 100% of the time.

Read and consider the posts made by Gizznit .. why, in Eve of all places, should a single not particularly vulnerable or timid ship costing a few hundred million be able provide bonuses that it would cost trillion (yes, that is a T) to field individually? The skirmish link alone with the range increase on tackle represents an enormous amount of ISK/performance and that is just one link.

Besides, with tank buffs across the board on the CCs as well as an in some cases hefty dps/utility increase they are wasted if kept off-field .. they still need some tweaking (mostly upwards) but the first proposal is rather decent, look it over.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#473 - 2013-08-05 12:36:28 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:

This is a MMORPG, if your able to organize 256 People it should have an advantage for this bunch of Players!

I highly disagree with your opinion, think how long sklling is needed to get, 1 Fleet Commander at V, 5 Wing Commander at V and 25 Squadleaders to V and have Boosters with the skills for Warefare Links... its a !!Year!!


Perhaps the Potency of Warfare links should be related to the number of people in fleet with you.

Really, if you are in a fleet of 250+ players going out to shoot something, then generally you'll be facing an opponent of similar size. At this level of fighting, the firepower, ewar, and tactics utilized by both sides allows for decent battles even with massive booster bonuses.

However, at the 2-10 man gang size, the boosts from a booster are much more imbalancing. Essentially, the "less" players that are involved in the fight, means there is less ships to overcome the benefits boosts provided.

So, Perhaps boosts should be more akin to:
Base boost * Mindlink Boost * hull bonus * Fleet Bonus.

Fleet bonus = (1 + .002 * Link Specialist Level + .001 * Warfare Link Spec Level) * ( # of pilots in fleet).

Using 1.15 for Hull bonus (CS) and 1.25 for Mindlink bonus, then the evasive maneuvering II (8% base) would give very different bonuses based on your fleet size:
5 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 5 ) = 12.36% reduction in Sig Size
10 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 10 ) = 13.23% reduction in Sig Size
15 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 15 ) = 14.09% reduction in Sig Size
20 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 *20 ) = 14.95% reduction in Sig Size
30 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 30 ) = 16.68% reduction in Sig Size
50 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 50 ) = 20.13% reduction in Sig Size
75 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 75 ) = 24.44% reduction in Sig Size
100 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 100 ) = 28.75% reduction in Sig Size
150 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 150 ) = 37.38% reduction in Sig Size
200 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 200 ) = 46% reduction in Sig Size
250 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 250 ) = 54.63% reduction in Sig Size

Likewise, Rapid Deployment II (7% base) would give very different bonuses based on your fleet size:
5 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 5 ) = 10.82% increase in speed
10 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 10 ) = 11.57% increase in speed
15 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 15 ) = 12.33% increase in speed
20 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 20 ) = 13.08% increase in speed
30 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 30 ) = 14.59% increase in speed
50 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 50 ) = 17.61% increase in speed
75 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 75 ) = 21.38% increase in speed
100 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 100 ) = 25.16% increase in speed
150 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 150 ) = 32.7% increase in speed
200 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 200 ) = 40.25% increase in speed
250 in fleet: 7 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 250 ) = 47.8% increase in speed

And now, for the important defensive links I (6% base):
5 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 5 ) = 9.27% Resists/Repair Rate
10 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 10 ) = 9.92% Resists/Repair Rate
15 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 *15 ) = 10.57% Resists/Repair Rate
20 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 20 ) = 11.21% Resists/Repair Rate
30 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 30 ) = 12.51% Resists/Repair Rate
50 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 50 ) = 15.09% Resists/Repair Rate
75 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 75 ) = 18.33% Resists/Repair Rate
100 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 100 ) = 21.56% Resists/Repair Rate
150 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 150 ) = 28.03% Resists/Repair Rate
200 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 200 ) = 34.5% Resists/Repair Rate
250 in fleet: 6 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 250 ) = 40.97% Resists/Repair Rate


With one link, this is an effective repair/HP bonus of:
5 in fleet: = 10.22% Effective Repair Boost
10 in fleet: = 11.01% Effective Repair Boost
15 in fleet: = 11.81% Effective Repair Boost
20 in fleet: = 12.63% Effective Repair Boost
30 in fleet: = 14.29% Effective Repair Boost
50 in fleet: = 17.78% Effective Repair Boost
75 in fleet: = 22.44% Effective Repair Boost
100 in fleet: = 27.49% Effective Repair Boost
150 in fleet: = 38.95% Effective Repair Boost
200 in fleet: = 52.67% Effective Repair Boost
250 in fleet: = 69.4% Effective Repair Boost

With all repair links running, this is an effective repair bonus of:
5 in fleet: = 21.48% Effective Repair Boost
10 in fleet: = 23.23% Effective Repair Boost
15 in fleet: = 25.02% Effective Repair Boost
20 in fleet: = 26.85% Effective Repair Boost
30 in fleet: = 30.63% Effective Repair Boost
50 in fleet: = 38.71% Effective Repair Boost
75 in fleet: = 49.92% Effective Repair Boost
100 in fleet: = 62.54% Effective Repair Boost
150 in fleet: = 93.07% Effective Repair Boost
200 in fleet: = 133.09% Effective Repair Boost
250 in fleet: = 186.97% Effective Repair Boost

In small gang (<10), the warfare link boosts are appropriately sized... game influencing without totally breaking game balance between the boosted and not-boosted.

In medium gang (<30), the links become more effective, and more important. This is fair.

In large gangs (>50), links become incredibly important... even encouraging redundant members.

Note: Fleet members probably need to be in system, in space, to limit afg in station game-the-system stuff. And AWOXers will take care of the AFG in space in fleet crowd!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#474 - 2013-08-05 12:44:35 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:

This is a MMORPG, if your able to organize 256 People it should have an advantage for this bunch of Players!

I highly disagree with your opinion, think how long sklling is needed to get, 1 Fleet Commander at V, 5 Wing Commander at V and 25 Squadleaders to V and have Boosters with the skills for Warefare Links... its a !!Year!!


Perhaps the Potency of Warfare links should be related to the number of people in fleet with you.

Really, if you are in a fleet of 250+ players going out to shoot something, then generally you'll be facing an opponent of similar size. At this level of fighting, the firepower, ewar, and tactics utilized by both sides allows for decent battles even with massive booster bonuses.

However, at the 2-10 man gang size, the boosts from a booster are much more imbalancing. Essentially, the "less" players that are involved in the fight, means there is less ships to overcome the benefits boosts provided.

So, Perhaps boosts should be more akin to:
Base boost * Mindlink Boost * hull bonus * Fleet Bonus.

Fleet bonus = (1 + .002 * Link Specialist Level + .001 * Warfare Link Spec Level) * ( # of pilots in fleet).

Using 1.15 for Hull bonus (CS) and 1.25 for Mindlink bonus, then the evasive maneuvering II (8% base) would give very different bonuses based on your fleet size:
5 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 5 ) = 12.36% reduction in Sig Size
10 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 10 ) = 13.23% reduction in Sig Size
15 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 15 ) = 14.09% reduction in Sig Size
20 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 *20 ) = 14.95% reduction in Sig Size
30 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 30 ) = 16.68% reduction in Sig Size
50 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 50 ) = 20.13% reduction in Sig Size
75 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 75 ) = 24.44% reduction in Sig Size
100 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 100 ) = 28.75% reduction in Sig Size
150 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 150 ) = 37.38% reduction in Sig Size
200 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 200 ) = 46% reduction in Sig Size
250 in fleet: 8 * 1.25 * 1.15 * (1 + 0.015 * 250 ) = 54.63% reduction in Sig Size

In small gang (<10), the warfare link boosts are appropriately sized... game influencing without totally breaking game balance between the boosted and not-boosted.

In medium gang (<30), the links become more effective, and more important. This is fair.

In large gangs (>50), links become incredibly important... even encouraging redundant members.

Note: Fleet members probably need to be in system, in space, to limit afg in station game-the-system stuff. And AWOXers will take care of the AFG in space in fleet crowd!


The numbers probably need more "tweaking" to make the gradient more appropriate, but I really think this is a much, much better result than the static boosts we have now. Hell, we could even skip the "force boosters on grid" mantra, and leave OGB'ing (ideally outside of a POS) functioning as it is now.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#475 - 2013-08-05 13:07:38 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Making mining links usable in a FF is pure pandering nonsense.
That change should be all or nothing.

Yeah have a rorqual that has no way to defend itself forced out of shields for every 2 bit ganker to come along and shoot at.. Great idea.. As long as you have the money ($ that is not isk, eventually unless you are an isk trillionare $ will be the main currency in eve) to start buying plex to pay for your T1 cruiser losses.
Orcas and Rorquals need a massive boost to self defence capabilities before being forced out of shields.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Ayana Mayuko
Mayuko Sisters' Trading Enterprises Ltd.
#476 - 2013-08-05 13:10:25 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Making mining links usable in a FF is pure pandering nonsense.
That change should be all or nothing.

Yeah have a rorqual that has no way to defend itself forced out of shields for every 2 bit ganker to come along and shoot at.. Great idea.. As long as you have the money ($ that is not isk, eventually unless you are an isk trillionare $ will be the main currency in eve) to start buying plex to pay for your T1 cruiser losses.
Orcas and Rorquals need a massive boost to self defence capabilities before being forced out of shields.


Rorqual has a FAR better defence capability compared to a command ship, in active tank, EHP and DPS.

Just saying.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#477 - 2013-08-05 13:36:01 UTC
does anyone else think mind-links shouldn't have a stronger bonus than Command ships?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#478 - 2013-08-05 13:38:15 UTC
Ayana Mayuko wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Making mining links usable in a FF is pure pandering nonsense.
That change should be all or nothing.

Yeah have a rorqual that has no way to defend itself forced out of shields for every 2 bit ganker to come along and shoot at.. Great idea.. As long as you have the money ($ that is not isk, eventually unless you are an isk trillionare $ will be the main currency in eve) to start buying plex to pay for your T1 cruiser losses.
Orcas and Rorquals need a massive boost to self defence capabilities before being forced out of shields.


Rorqual has a FAR better defence capability compared to a command ship, in active tank, EHP and DPS.

Just saying.



That's why they survive a couple seconds to a hot drop blops/bomber wing. Indeed they have too much useless HP.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#479 - 2013-08-05 13:51:50 UTC
Ayana Mayuko wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Making mining links usable in a FF is pure pandering nonsense.
That change should be all or nothing.

Yeah have a rorqual that has no way to defend itself forced out of shields for every 2 bit ganker to come along and shoot at.. Great idea.. As long as you have the money ($ that is not isk, eventually unless you are an isk trillionare $ will be the main currency in eve) to start buying plex to pay for your T1 cruiser losses.
Orcas and Rorquals need a massive boost to self defence capabilities before being forced out of shields.


Rorqual has a FAR better defence capability compared to a command ship, in active tank, EHP and DPS.

Just saying.
Do you really think a boosting rorqual has the same chance of survival - escape as a command ship?? In industrial mode (boosting) the rorq is stuck in position until cycle ends, 5 mins, can field a whopping 5 large drones (T2 sentries, around 500dps) around 900k EHP with shield rigs (uncommon) 650k fitted for storage (more common) takes around 46 seconds to align and warp (after dropping out of boosting mode). A vulture, around 400dps, around 110k EHP and (with my skills) 9 seconds align warp time. Vulture is going to be with a pvp fleet, rorqual with a mining fleet..
I know which I would rather find myself facing 20 or 30 battleships in.

Just Saying.,.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Ayana Mayuko
Mayuko Sisters' Trading Enterprises Ltd.
#480 - 2013-08-05 13:52:40 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Ayana Mayuko wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Making mining links usable in a FF is pure pandering nonsense.
That change should be all or nothing.

Yeah have a rorqual that has no way to defend itself forced out of shields for every 2 bit ganker to come along and shoot at.. Great idea.. As long as you have the money ($ that is not isk, eventually unless you are an isk trillionare $ will be the main currency in eve) to start buying plex to pay for your T1 cruiser losses.
Orcas and Rorquals need a massive boost to self defence capabilities before being forced out of shields.


Rorqual has a FAR better defence capability compared to a command ship, in active tank, EHP and DPS.

Just saying.



That's why they survive a couple seconds to a hot drop blops/bomber wing. Indeed they have too much useless HP.


If I found a boosting T3/command ship in a safespot I would (and do) drop it and kill it, just as I would kill a Rorqual/Orca. The reason command ships aren't hunted as much as Rorquals are (ISK value aisde, obviously that is a factor) because they fly with combat capable fleets. Rorquals do not. There isn't a reason why Rorquals shouldn't have PvP ships defending them just as command ships would have apart from maybe the fact that PvPers have no real incentive to protect these ships which really comes down to the alliance/corp rather than game mechanics.