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[Odyssey 1.1] Medium Rail, Beam and Artillery rebalance

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Cade Windstalker
#461 - 2013-08-30 08:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:

thats the problem i have with them.. their suppose to be heavy damaging missiles... but they arent.
heavys are suppose to kill cruisers and battle-cruisers.. and you cant even use the t2 variant on ABing battleships... that combined with it skips 2 ship classes before it even starts applying anything. is pretty pathetic... t2 heavys are only really useful on a battleship or dreadnaught standing still, or pocos... and if im going after them ied rather use a blaster naga and kite...

dont even get me started on t2 cruise and torps.. oh dear god..

and rigs arent enough. it still needs those medium and low slot modules. i really hope ccp is serious and adds them..


I've actually looked at the damage application on these weapons and it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, especially if your missile damage application skills have been trained to reasonable levels.

There are going to be situations for one type of missile and then situations for another. Just because a missile does more damage against large targets doesn't mean you should use it against every such target. You have to use decision making the same way high damage short-range ammo for weapons is not always the best choice Blink


FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
i would like all 10% of my damage back. but i would be ok with 7.5% damage returning, like i said an extra 15-20k range with max skills.

5%-7.5% more application in each velocity and exp radius, would be very welcome with furys/rages t2s.


You might just get the second bit through damage application mods, I very very much doubt you are going to get the second. Heavy Missiles and missiles in general still have great damage application at all ranges and are more effective at long range than comparable weapon systems which have to directly trade range and damage.

FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
lastly i dont think cruise missiles got over buffed at all. i think the other long range weapons like (large rails) need to be brought upto-par with other long range weapons like cruise/artillery.

long range weapons shouldn't be useless.. they should kill things at range, as effectively as blasters/autocannons/torps do up-close. but if you get in close/under them, they shouldn't be-able to hit much. thus maintaining balance/purpose


No, if you want this functionality then train gun skills. What you're suggesting just makes all weapons homogenous. Right now there is a good trade-off with damage application at range vs damage up close for most Missile Systems vs comparable Turret systems.

Also if you looked at actual damage stats you would see that Rails are not in a bad place for DPS right now and, in-fact, do more DPS than Artillery does, Arty just has better alpha.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#462 - 2013-09-01 05:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Speaking of those, if you check the effective ranges on Rails, Beam Lasers, or Artillery you'll see that they're generally short of Heavy Missiles at that damage tier. Or to state that a little more plainly. If you fit these weapons for Heavy Missile ranges you don't get Heavy Missile damage, if you fit them for Heavy Missile damage you don't get Heavy Missile range.

*sigh* Had a large post, and the 'save' thing ate it.

Anyway, I did some BC fits up in EFT and used its DPS graphing function. Beams and Rails can equal or beat HML applied DPS vs cruisers, even when those cruisers have high transversal, and they can do it whilst cap-stable. Vs BCs and up HMLs are superior past ~35km. Vs. cruisers and smaller with little transversal beams and rails just own HMLs. Arty sucks for DPS, still.

HMLs are only superior to beams and rails for two things - <5km ranges (in which case why aren't you using short range weapons?), and long range sniping at large ships (for which we have ABCs). I don't think HMLS need a range buff (though I do miss the range my Drake once had), or a raw DPS buff, but they could use a buff to their ability to apply DPS to small and/or fast targets.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#463 - 2013-09-01 05:21:55 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

There are going to be situations for one type of missile and then situations for another. Just because a missile does more damage against large targets doesn't mean you should use it against every such target. You have to use decision making the same way high damage short-range ammo for weapons is not always the best choice Blink

The problem is that the advantage to using the perfect T2 missile is fairly minor in most cases, and it's a 10s reload time to change over, so generally unless you're sure you'll only be shooting at one type of target for an entire magazine (admitedly not that long with torps or cruises, because they hold far too little ammo) it's not worth using T2 ammo - just use faction ammo for everything.
Cade Windstalker
#464 - 2013-09-01 05:48:28 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Speaking of those, if you check the effective ranges on Rails, Beam Lasers, or Artillery you'll see that they're generally short of Heavy Missiles at that damage tier. Or to state that a little more plainly. If you fit these weapons for Heavy Missile ranges you don't get Heavy Missile damage, if you fit them for Heavy Missile damage you don't get Heavy Missile range.

*sigh* Had a large post, and the 'save' thing ate it.

Anyway, I did some BC fits up in EFT and used its DPS graphing function. Beams and Rails can equal or beat HML applied DPS vs cruisers, even when those cruisers have high transversal, and they can do it whilst cap-stable. Vs BCs and up HMLs are superior past ~35km. Vs. cruisers and smaller with little transversal beams and rails just own HMLs. Arty sucks for DPS, still.

HMLs are only superior to beams and rails for two things - <5km ranges (in which case why aren't you using short range weapons?), and long range sniping at large ships (for which we have ABCs). I don't think HMLS need a range buff (though I do miss the range my Drake once had), or a raw DPS buff, but they could use a buff to their ability to apply DPS to small and/or fast targets.


It's actually not terribly long range before Heavy Missiles start to out-damage turrets and you don't need to be shooting at a huge ship. You can deal full damage against most cruisers and anything bigger than that, which makes sense since these are cruiser class weapons.

The thing about getting under the enemy's guns is that you still have the option without going to refit and that's worth quite a bit. If you somehow magically know exactly who you're going to fight and what they're going to bring then that's great but it's only really possible for big sov-fights and even then it's not a consistent advantage any group has.

You should also check out the post-changes long range weapons. The tracking penalty is going to hurt them up close quite a bit.

Plus you're not going to get consistent damage out of Rails or Beam-Lasers if you're fighting an enemy trying to get under your guns. You're going to miss some and hit some and that inconsistency can make an active-tanking opponent much harder to kill.

Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

There are going to be situations for one type of missile and then situations for another. Just because a missile does more damage against large targets doesn't mean you should use it against every such target. You have to use decision making the same way high damage short-range ammo for weapons is not always the best choice Blink

The problem is that the advantage to using the perfect T2 missile is fairly minor in most cases, and it's a 10s reload time to change over, so generally unless you're sure you'll only be shooting at one type of target for an entire magazine (admitedly not that long with torps or cruises, because they hold far too little ammo) it's not worth using T2 ammo - just use faction ammo for everything.


That's down to your choice based on your skills and the situation you find yourself in. It doesn't mean that the ammo is somehow useless.

As for the reloading time, at max skills Cruise cycles in 11.4 seconds, Torpedoes 9.9 seconds, Heavy Missiles 8.3, and HAMs 4.4 seconds. These numbers can be increased a little with implants and ship skills but even with a 25% ROF bonus you're still looking at only losing 1 to about 1.3 cycles of damage to reloading. If you think you're going to kill the enemy fast enough for that to not be worth it then that's your call. It probably also means you're winning and don't need to swap anyway (or you're a bad judge of how a fight is going).

Otherwise it's probably worth it since you're really losing relatively little DPS as long as you don't have to switch back and forth constantly. Besides, you're going to have to reload eventually anyway which means reloading early for more damage is generally a good move period (as long as you judge correctly that swapping ammo will actually give you more damage).
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#465 - 2013-09-02 14:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyon Rheyne
Will arti/autocannons get some close attention in near future?
What is the one of their stated biggest advantages? Its diversity of damage types they can deliver... with t1/faction ammo. But not with t2, for some reason. We have t2 versions for only 2 t1 ammo types - AFAIR they are nuclear and fusion ones, and this effectively ties us to explosion/a little of kinetic damage type if choosing to use t2 ammunition. T2 missiles existence in 4 different damage type variants is almost on the verge of racial discrimination What?

And as for those that already in game, here is a quote from eve university's wiki:
"Hail does a lot of damage, on paper. Unfortunately it also cuts your tracking speed by 30% and falloff by 50%. (It also cuts your optimal by 50%, but you didn't want that optimal anyway, right?)
When fighting large, stationary targets, Hail may actually be useful. Generally, however, Hail's penalties mean that other ammunition will actually do more real, applied damage even if Hail offers the best on-paper damage. "
Quake t2 arty ammo has a similar reputation, and for good reason.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2013-09-02 14:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Kyon Rheyne wrote:
Will arti/autocannons get some close attention in near future?
What the one of their stated biggest advantages? Its diversity of damage types they can deliver... with t1/faction ammo. But not with t2, for some reason. We have t2 versions for only 2 t1 ammo types - AFAIR they are nuclear and fusion ones, and this effectively ties us to explosion/a little of kinetic damage type if choosing to use t2 ammunition.

And as for those that already in game, here is a quote from eve university's wiki:
"Hail does a lot of damage, on paper. Unfortunately it also cuts your tracking speed by 30% and falloff by 50%. (It also cuts your optimal by 50%, but you didn't want that optimal anyway, right?)
When fighting large, stationary targets, Hail may actually be useful. Generally, however, Hail's penalties mean that other ammunition will actually do more real, applied damage even if Hail offers the best on-paper damage. "
Quake t2 arty ammo has a similar reputation, and for good reason.


... along with T2 blaster ammo, conflagration and T2 missiles of all kinds....

...what's your point, sir?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#467 - 2013-09-02 15:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyon Rheyne
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


... along with T2 blaster ammo, conflagration and T2 missiles of all kinds....

...what's your point, sir?


I've submited corrections to this post after you've quoted it. My main point is that it should has its damage type diversity in t2 variants just as it has in t1. Blasters and lasers don't have such diversity from the start, for example. Under 'damage type' I mean exp/em/therm/kin.
Cade Windstalker
#468 - 2013-09-02 15:37:36 UTC
Kyon Rheyne wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


... along with T2 blaster ammo, conflagration and T2 missiles of all kinds....

...what's your point, sir?


I've submited corrections to this post after you've quoted it. My main point is that it should has its damage type diversity in t2 variants just as it has in t1. Blasters and lasers don't have such diversity from the start, for example. Under 'damage type' I mean exp/em/therm/kin.


And given that missiles do get to select T2 damage type you may have a point. On the other hand it's also possible that CCP took this into account in the original projectiles rebalance and the ammo would have to lose a bit of damage in order to gain that damage variation.

Also if you look at the actual damage dealt by various projectile ammo types you'll note that every single one deals at least some explosive or kinetic damage and most deal both, so this isn't that out of line for the weapons system at all. Plus if Hail is one of the weakest short range ammo types then Barrage is one of the strongest and Tremor is certainly no slouch either.
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#469 - 2013-09-02 18:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyon Rheyne
Cade Windstalker wrote:

On the other hand it's also possible that CCP took this into account in the original projectiles rebalance and the ammo would have to lose a bit of damage in order to gain that damage variation.


Well, I would love to know how it was taken in account, then. See, every other's race weapon systems receive a boost (or better say a change) according to this race's philosophy while going to t2. DPS of t2 blasters going even more insanely high, while they are still bound to therm/kin damage types, t2 drones become even better while preserving their damage type variety, missiles aquire some specialization traits AND still retain access to all 4 damage type options. And for projectiles - yes, they receive some boost to amount of damage dealed/fall off in other case, but still not even close to blasters (you'll never find an incursion fleet which will accept autocannon boat in DD role), and bound to one of the least convinient damage type for PVE (except, probably, for angels, NPC usually have sufficient amount of exp resist). So, one can't say that such restriction is accompanied by sufficient raw damage boost, for example, which would help to overcome inconviniet NPC's resists. Its higher then with t1 counterparts, but not so much. And this particular case does not fit into the biger picture of t2 boost principles (which, as was showed above, stick with the general racial warfare philosophy) - in almost any guide projectile weapons are described as having good adaptability to different circumstances through great damage type variety.


Cade Windstalker wrote:

Also if you look at the actual damage dealt by various projectile ammo types you'll note that every single one deals at least some explosive or kinetic damage and most deal both, so this isn't that out of line for the weapons system at all.


Phased Plasma and EMP deal a great amount of therm and em damage respectively, and they are ones of most popular ammo choices for matar boats. Losing them while going to t2 is really painfull.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#470 - 2013-09-02 19:04:04 UTC
Projectiles are far and away the best and most used weapon system in the game. It's T2 ammo doesn't need a buff.



Obviously the above is an opinion. I have no "proof". I do however feel as though the fact that every unbonused hull in the game ends up with Projectiles on it is telling.
Cade Windstalker
#471 - 2013-09-02 19:04:50 UTC
Kyon Rheyne wrote:
Well, I would love to know how it was taken in account, then. See, every other's race weapon systems receive a boost (or better say a change) according to this race's philosophy while going to t2. DPS of t2 blasters going even more insanely high, while they are still bound to therm/kin damage types, t2 drones become even better while preserving their damage type variety, missiles aquire some specialization traits AND still retain access to all 4 damage type options. And for projectiles - yes, they receive some boost to amount of damage dealed/fall off in other case, but still not even close to blasters (you'll never find an incursion fleet which will accept autocannon boat in DD role), and bound to one of the least convinient damage type for PVE (except, probably, for angels, NPC usually have sufficient amount of exp resist). So, one can't say that such restriction is accompanied by sufficient raw damage boost, for example, which would help to overcome inconviniet NPC's resists. Its higher then with t1 counterparts, but not so much. And this particular case does not fit into the biger picture of t2 boost principles (which, as was showed above, stick with the general racial warfare philosophy) - in almost any guide projectile weapons are described as having good adaptability to different circumstances through great damage type variety.


So, breaking this down a little (seriously this would have been easier to read with more line-breaks):

Void vs Hail: They both do the same base damage, any difference in damage is entirely based on the weapon damage multipliers. For Void 30.8+30.8 = 61.6 and for Hail 48.4+13.2 = 61.6 damage.

They both have range penalties but even after the penalty on Hail 800mm Autocannons are left at 3+18 (all 5 skills) where as Blasters are left at 6.8+6.3. The tracking in this situation is a little better for the Blasters but at optimal+falloff the autocannons are going to track better and are still dealing damage well after the Blasters are missing every shot due to falloff.

As for missions, no one is forcing you to use T2 ammo, most people don't use T2 for missions in general regardless of race.

Also the claim that no one uses Autocannons in Incursions is patently false. For Vanguards that's what you're going to find on the majority of Maelstroms and Macheriels due to the far better tracking against small targets. There are Arty fleet setups but those rely on alpha-striking spawns at range before tracking becomes much of a factor and hybrid boats in those fleets wouldn't generally be using Blasters either.

Kyon Rheyne wrote:

Phased Plasma and EMP deal a great amount of therm and em damage respectively, and they are ones of most popular ammo choices for matar boats. Losing them while going to t2 is really painfull.


For PvE or PvP the damage bonus vs the trade-offs is all part of the game, if you think your enemy has more of a thermal or EM hole then you're better off hitting there. For shield ships though Explosive and Kinetic tends to be a good bet because then tend to plug the EM/Thermal hole pretty solidly and I know from experience on my T2 Caldari shield fits that Explosive generally ends up short.

Missiles may get to pick damage type with T2 ammo but that only really generically bonused missile boats which tend to have lower overall DPS than the Caldari Kinetic focused ones do so unless your enemy has a hole that's over 25% lower than his Kinetic you're better off sticking to your high damage ammo.
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#472 - 2013-09-02 19:53:14 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Projectiles are far and away the best and most used weapon system in the game. It's T2 ammo doesn't need a buff.


And I've heard quite the opposite more than once. I can't claim that I was able to compare all weapon systems in the game, though. Well, for sniping purposes where alfa is only thing significant its doing well, as for others fields of applications, I wouldn't be so optimistic.
But, regardless of said before, I don't asking for somehow boost projectile ammo. I'm just asking for preserving its initial flavor - variety of damage types. Which for some reason unknown to me were preserved for drones and missiles, but not for projs.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#473 - 2013-09-02 20:02:19 UTC
Kyon Rheyne wrote:
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Projectiles are far and away the best and most used weapon system in the game. It's T2 ammo doesn't need a buff.


And I've heard quite the opposite more than once. I can't claim that I was able to compare all weapon systems in the game, though. Well, for sniping purposes where alfa is only thing significant its doing well, as for others fields of applications, I wouldn't be so optimistic.
But, regardless of said before, I don't asking for somehow boost projectile ammo. I'm just asking for preserving its initial flavor - variety of damage types. Which for some reason unknown to me were preserved for drones and missiles, but not for projs.


CCP will have this data in a database. I am pretty sure that it if there was an imbalance, with the current prevailing pro-active mood, they'd fix it.

It's not 2011 anymore.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#474 - 2013-09-02 20:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyon Rheyne
Cade Windstalker wrote:

As for missions, no one is forcing you to use T2 ammo, most people don't use T2 for missions in general regardless of race.


And that mean to be greatly disatvantaged in form of PVE which assume some form of competiotion. For example, combat site racing. Here someone with t2 ammo (which he can easly swithc to accomodate resistances of this particular NPC faction) which basically delivers much more dps than its t1 counterpart can easly outrace you forced to use t1 because your t2 is equally effective due to not so great damage type (exp effectively countered by most NPCs in the game). He will snatch that overseers just in front of you in no time. And even in solo missions with such restrictions in place, you will perform generally worse than those who can select ammo type with any available damage flavor.

Cade Windstalker wrote:

For PvE or PvP the damage bonus vs the trade-offs is all part of the game, if you think your enemy has more of a thermal or EM hole then you're better off hitting there. For shield ships though Explosive and Kinetic tends to be a good bet because then tend to plug the EM/Thermal hole pretty solidly and I know from experience on my T2 Caldari shield fits that Explosive generally ends up short.

For PVP (I mean mass pvp, large scale battles) damage flavor is of not so great importance because of omni-tank being almost no-brainer for obvious reasons. Except that in the case of hunting some mission runners in lows/nulls, you won't make any mistakes by chosing those of greater dmg value or range, depending of your role, regardless of its damage type.
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#475 - 2013-09-02 20:12:22 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


CCP will have this data in a database. I am pretty sure that it if there was an imbalance, with the current prevailing pro-active mood, they'd fix it.

It's not 2011 anymore.


Than how about that sentry drone thing, with ability to transfer sentrys from all over the gang to one particular fast locking boat which will allow for almost instant kill with enormous alfa of even highly tanked BSs? How soon it will be fixed, if at all?
Cade Windstalker
#476 - 2013-09-03 00:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Kyon Rheyne wrote:
Than how about that sentry drone thing, with ability to transfer sentrys from all over the gang to one particular fast locking boat which will allow for almost instant kill with enormous alfa of even highly tanked BSs? How soon it will be fixed, if at all?


Probably when they have a good fix for it figured out and ready to deploy?

Sorry, but good game design takes time, it's not just hitting a magic button or locking the devs in until they slide an answer out under the door.

Also in general regarding faction damage ammo, what you are talking about does not translate into any more of an advantage than range, damage projection, or damage application does.

As a general rule the resist values for rats are not so different that you are better off switching from higher damage ammo to lower damage but resist specific ammo unless the difference in DPS is tiny to being with or in specific cases involving specific factions and rats. In general Caldari still use Kinetic against everything if that's where their bonus is.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#477 - 2013-09-03 00:38:59 UTC
Kyon Rheyne wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


CCP will have this data in a database. I am pretty sure that it if there was an imbalance, with the current prevailing pro-active mood, they'd fix it.

It's not 2011 anymore.


Than how about that sentry drone thing, with ability to transfer sentrys from all over the gang to one particular fast locking boat which will allow for almost instant kill with enormous alfa of even highly tanked BSs? How soon it will be fixed, if at all?


This has never been mentioned as a problem before. The phenomenon has arisen only because suddenly domis can use gardes at 70km and curators at 100+km. If they'd left the domi as the brawler ship we all loved we wouldn't be having this conversation
Smile

Seriously, drone assist has been around for years. It's just that no-one ever thought to use it until now.

I'm pretty sure it'll get fixed. Domis are just too op for words at the moment. I am a gallente fan, so I'm not used to having an OP ship to use. Let me enjoy it for a few months....

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Cade Windstalker
#478 - 2013-09-03 00:47:02 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
This has never been mentioned as a problem before. The phenomenon has arisen only because suddenly domis can use gardes at 70km and curators at 100+km. If they'd left the domi as the brawler ship we all loved we wouldn't be having this conversation
Smile

Seriously, drone assist has been around for years. It's just that no-one ever thought to use it until now.

I'm pretty sure it'll get fixed. Domis are just too op for words at the moment. I am a gallente fan, so I'm not used to having an OP ship to use. Let me enjoy it for a few months....


Actually the real problem right now is more Sentry Carriers in null. From what I can tell the Domi doctrine actually grew out of that.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#479 - 2013-09-03 00:51:48 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
This has never been mentioned as a problem before. The phenomenon has arisen only because suddenly domis can use gardes at 70km and curators at 100+km. If they'd left the domi as the brawler ship we all loved we wouldn't be having this conversation
Smile

Seriously, drone assist has been around for years. It's just that no-one ever thought to use it until now.

I'm pretty sure it'll get fixed. Domis are just too op for words at the moment. I am a gallente fan, so I'm not used to having an OP ship to use. Let me enjoy it for a few months....


Actually the real problem right now is more Sentry Carriers in null. From what I can tell the Domi doctrine actually grew out of that.


Well then that's grist to my mill isn't it? Sentry drones are not new, carriers are not new. Drone assist is not new.

Suddenly people are whinging because they's watched a few tournaments.

It's just the flavour of the month right now, that's all.

Don't like sentries? Stealth bomb the f*ckers. It's all over in 15 seconds.

Everything has a counter.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Cade Windstalker
#480 - 2013-09-03 02:12:07 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Well then that's grist to my mill isn't it? Sentry drones are not new, carriers are not new. Drone assist is not new.

Suddenly people are whinging because they's watched a few tournaments.

It's just the flavour of the month right now, that's all.

Don't like sentries? Stealth bomb the f*ckers. It's all over in 15 seconds.

Everything has a counter.


Doesn't work in low-sec unfortunately.

You're certainly right that this is a FOTM fit, it's just one that likely won't go away until CCP change the mechanics on drone assist. Spider tanking Sentry carriers/Dominixes is pretty damn scary as things go and while changing drone assist won't change that it will at least mean someone besides the FC needs to be at the computer for the fight >.>