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[Odyssey 1.1] Medium Rail, Beam and Artillery rebalance

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Coolmer
Kanizsa triangle
#481 - 2013-09-03 11:05:30 UTC
who ever do that rebalance is a little stupid, arty was worst with dps, worst with tracking and awfull with fire rate, worst reload time (u cant all time talk on every balance has most alpha, because with miss u have 0) now u op everything else then fix arty, gj
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#482 - 2013-09-03 11:28:17 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Well then that's grist to my mill isn't it? Sentry drones are not new, carriers are not new. Drone assist is not new.

Suddenly people are whinging because they's watched a few tournaments.

It's just the flavour of the month right now, that's all.

Don't like sentries? Stealth bomb the f*ckers. It's all over in 15 seconds.

Everything has a counter.


Doesn't work in low-sec unfortunately.

You're certainly right that this is a FOTM fit, it's just one that likely won't go away until CCP change the mechanics on drone assist. Spider tanking Sentry carriers/Dominixes is pretty damn scary as things go and while changing drone assist won't change that it will at least mean someone besides the FC needs to be at the computer for the fight >.>


Good point about lowsec, however, I can't think of any famous fights in lowsec that were characterised by domi porcupine fleets.

This idea that no-one needs to be at their keyboards because of drone assist makes good press, because it sounds sensational.

The truth is of course that actually allowing your fleet members to go AFK would be suicidal. If the FC (the assistee) gets blapped, then drones stop functioning and your fleet stops shooting. (didn't this happen in the Fountain war? The goons deliberately targeted known FCs)

I can understand that it's unpleasant to be on the receiving end of sentry drone assists when they scale up to fleet levels. But frankly, all weapons systems scale in an unpleasant way. That's just the nature of fleet warfare.

I don't think there's ever going to be a pleasing answer to fleet battles. They happen for political and economic reasons. The place to focus on in my view is skirmish warfare. Eliminate the threat of instant cyno-death. Start there. The game will be better for it.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Cade Windstalker
#483 - 2013-09-03 13:00:57 UTC
Coolmer wrote:
who ever do that rebalance is a little stupid, arty was worst with dps, worst with tracking and awfull with fire rate, worst reload time (u cant all time talk on every balance has most alpha, because with miss u have 0) now u op everything else then fix arty, gj


Well, since it lost the least tracking and gained ROF this would seem to mean that Artillery got *better* compared to other weapon systems. Also you forgot doesn't use cap, can select damage, and has excellent range.

Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Good point about lowsec, however, I can't think of any famous fights in lowsec that were characterised by domi porcupine fleets.

This idea that no-one needs to be at their keyboards because of drone assist makes good press, because it sounds sensational.

The truth is of course that actually allowing your fleet members to go AFK would be suicidal. If the FC (the assistee) gets blapped, then drones stop functioning and your fleet stops shooting. (didn't this happen in the Fountain war? The goons deliberately targeted known FCs)

I can understand that it's unpleasant to be on the receiving end of sentry drone assists when they scale up to fleet levels. But frankly, all weapons systems scale in an unpleasant way. That's just the nature of fleet warfare.

I don't think there's ever going to be a pleasing answer to fleet battles. They happen for political and economic reasons. The place to focus on in my view is skirmish warfare. Eliminate the threat of instant cyno-death. Start there. The game will be better for it.


Just because there's never been a famous fight (so far) characterized by heavy Sentry use doesn't mean Drone Assist isn't an issue, and yes the comment about people going AFK is fairly silly in practice.

In reality the issue with drone assist is that you can watch-list 15 people out of the fleet and switch targets without having to actually lock someone just by changing who your drones are set to assist on. This can be used to completely bypass lock times which is especially relevant for a carrier fielding 10-15 damage bonused Sentries. This makes the fleet doctrine extremely resilient in the face of everything from electronic warfare to simply damage because no one needs to fit Sensor Boosters.

Also while I agree that hot-drops are an issue I think the drones thing is likely going to be easier to fix (probably by having drone assist simply work like Fighter assist).
boernl
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#484 - 2013-09-03 13:43:41 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Good morning space adventurers!

IF YOU WANT TO CRITICIZE THIS PROPOSAL PLEASE READ THE EXPLANATION BELOW FIRST <3

Okay so I'm going to give you the numbers first, then do some text walling below to try and explain why we arrived where we did.

Medium Rails (all sizes and metas):
+15% Rate of Fire
+15% Damage Multiplier
-15% Tracking Speed

Medium Beams:
+25% Damage Multiplier
-10% Tracking Speed

Medium Artillery:
+10% Rate of Fire
-5% Tracking

So the basic idea is that we're increasing damage by quite a lot for all medium long range turrets, while also lowering their tracking a little bit.

From a high level, the goal here is to make long range weapons valuable enough that people are able to use them for both PVP and PVE without being laughed at. This is hard to accomplish without stepping heavily on the toes of either large weapons or short-range medium weapons. We felt that a large damage increase was absolutely necessary for there to be any chance of seeing increased use, but the higher damage goes the more pressure gets put on other weapon systems. By making tracking speed a bit worse we preserve a lot of the advantage that medium short-range guns bring, while also making medium long-range guns a great choice verse large guns in many situations.

To understand why that last part is true, its VERY important that you understand how tracking works in EVE. I want to use an example here to help illustrate:

The tracking speed on a standard Neutron Blaster Talos with Null loaded is .0794
The tracking speed on a new 250mm Railgun Deimos with Antimatter loaded will be .0304

It looks like the Talos tracks 3x as well as the Deimos. In reality, because of the role Signature Resolution plays, the Deimos will actually track moving targets about 19% better than the Null Talos.

A real tracking number that combines tracking speed and resolution would look like this:

Real tracking on standard Neutron Blaster Talos with Null loaded is .0001985
Real tracking on a new 250mm Railgun Deimos with Antimatter loaded is .0002432

If you want to make this kind of comparison for other ships and situations, divide tracking speed by the signature resolution of the gun and compare the resulting numbers. If you want to see an awesome in-depth explanation for tracking, I recommend reading THIS BLOG by Azual Skoll.

One of the discussions we had with the CSM on this topic (there were a lot) revolved around a situation where you get to choose which ship to bring to a fight where you will be shooting at Talwars. Do you want a new medium long-range gun ship, or an Attack BC with large short-range guns. So I made a DPS graph here showing three fits: a 200mm Rail Thorax, a 250mm Rail Deimos, and a Neutron Talos, all of which have 2 tracking enhancers fit. The situation shown would be if the Talwar has MWD on and is moving at full speed at an angle of 60 degrees (hopefully fairly average, though it will vary a lot). You can see what that looks like here: DAMAGE GRAPH

There are of course a lot of other reasons to bring medium long-range ships over large like price, speed, resilience, and the option to shoot to much longer ranges. Overall we are still a tad worried about power creep here, but hopefully this will put medium guns in a healthy place in relation to their competition.

Be sure to check out the HEAVY ASSAULT CRUISER REBALANCE as well as many of those ships are affected by this change and vice versa

As always, looking forward to feedback.
CCP Rise



thanks to rise and his colleages

- medium long range weapons
USELESS

-mind links
WORTHLESS

-game imporvements after this patch
{|||||||||||||||||||||2% } still searching
estimated time till complete 5 years
boernl
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#485 - 2013-09-03 13:45:37 UTC
go do something usefull rise like playing tetrist or some

fix the things that are broken and stop f*censored*g this game up
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#486 - 2013-09-03 14:06:27 UTC
umad bro?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

boernl
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#487 - 2013-09-03 14:12:06 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
umad bro?


you can translate theyr word "rebalancing" into f*censored*g the game up it comes damn close
Soporo
#488 - 2013-09-03 15:09:15 UTC
News Flash: Medium Rails continue to be horrible unless hitting far, far above your weight or have something mass tackled.

-15% tracking on medium hybrids. Poor rail Eagle, poor rail Moa, poor rail Ferox. Sad

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken

Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#489 - 2013-09-03 15:16:28 UTC
Soporo wrote:
News Flash: Medium Rails continue to be horrible unless hitting far, far above your weight or have something mass tackled.

-15% tracking on medium hybrids. Poor rail Eagle, poor rail Moa, poor rail Ferox. Sad



I will continue dualboxing Proteus/Loki and Deimos/Rapier and mock everyone who thinks rails are bad.
Soporo
#490 - 2013-09-03 15:28:07 UTC
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Soporo wrote:
News Flash: Medium Rails continue to be horrible unless hitting far, far above your weight or have something mass tackled.

-15% tracking on medium hybrids. Poor rail Eagle, poor rail Moa, poor rail Ferox. Sad



I will continue dualboxing Proteus/Loki and Deimos/Rapier and mock everyone who thinks rails are bad.



Use Eagles if they are so win...

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken

Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#491 - 2013-09-03 19:07:54 UTC
Soporo wrote:
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Soporo wrote:
News Flash: Medium Rails continue to be horrible unless hitting far, far above your weight or have something mass tackled.

-15% tracking on medium hybrids. Poor rail Eagle, poor rail Moa, poor rail Ferox. Sad



I will continue dualboxing Proteus/Loki and Deimos/Rapier and mock everyone who thinks rails are bad.



Use Eagles if they are so win...


so you were only saying med rails were bad on caldari ships in bad situations?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#492 - 2013-09-03 19:42:13 UTC
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Soporo wrote:
News Flash: Medium Rails continue to be horrible unless hitting far, far above your weight or have something mass tackled.

-15% tracking on medium hybrids. Poor rail Eagle, poor rail Moa, poor rail Ferox. Sad



I will continue dualboxing Proteus/Loki and Deimos/Rapier and mock everyone who thinks rails are bad.


I like how you mentioned only Gallente hybrid cruisers in that post.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#493 - 2013-09-03 19:56:29 UTC
What is wrong with ships needing to be tackled? I keep seeing people complain about struggling to hit non-tackled ships. Long range weapons are better now and should be quite good in gangs. Use short range weapons if you are flying solo.
Abishai
#494 - 2013-09-04 01:15:34 UTC
Medium Rails are somehow just as worthless now as they were before. Does anyone at CCP even play this game anymore?
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#495 - 2013-09-04 01:28:47 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

In reality the issue with drone assist is that you can watch-list 15 people out of the fleet and switch targets without having to actually lock someone just by changing who your drones are set to assist on. This can be used to completely bypass lock times which is especially relevant for a carrier fielding 10-15 damage bonused Sentries. This makes the fleet doctrine extremely resilient in the face of everything from electronic warfare to simply damage because no one needs to fit Sensor Boosters.


If it's such a big deal it's fairly straightforward to remove drone assist completely. It's unreliable anyway.

Cade Windstalker wrote:

Also while I agree that hot-drops are an issue I think the drones thing is likely going to be easier to fix


Just because a thing is difficult does not mean it should not be done. Neither does it mean that it should not be done without delay.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

Hot drops need to be fixed if we want fun fights. Its pretty easy really. Make every ship that cynos or bridges to a beacon land in a random position in the solar system, rather than on the beacon.

Q. how does this help?
A. the small gang people being hotdropped have an extra 40 seconds to evade the drop if they know they are outnumbered.

Q. how does this help?
A. people won't hot-drop unless they have to for political reasons. If they want a fight they'll have to escalate it carefully.

Q. how does this help?
A. It means more fights will actually happen. People will be more inclined to risk fleets on roams. They types of roam fleets will be broader (you are no longer limited to nano-only).

easy.

Next problem?

Blink

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Cade Windstalker
#496 - 2013-09-04 02:13:54 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
If it's such a big deal it's fairly straightforward to remove drone assist completely. It's unreliable anyway.


Yes, and I'm sure that this is something they're considering. More likely though they'll just make it like assisting fighters to a ship where assisted drones "replace" your existing drones and you can only have one set at a time assisted to you.

Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Just because a thing is difficult does not mean it should not be done. Neither does it mean that it should not be done without delay.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.


Yes, but this is hardly evil. Annoying, certainly, but not Evil. It also shouldn't be rushed into since a bad fix could very easily be worse than no fix at all.

Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Hot drops need to be fixed if we want fun fights. Its pretty easy really. Make every ship that cynos or bridges to a beacon land in a random position in the solar system, rather than on the beacon.

Q. how does this help?
A. the small gang people being hotdropped have an extra 40 seconds to evade the drop if they know they are outnumbered.

Q. how does this help?
A. people won't hot-drop unless they have to for political reasons. If they want a fight they'll have to escalate it carefully.

Q. how does this help?
A. It means more fights will actually happen. People will be more inclined to risk fleets on roams. They types of roam fleets will be broader (you are no longer limited to nano-only).

easy.

Next problem?

Blink


The problem with this is that it penalizes attackers overly much by scattering them around the system, could put capital ships in a position where they can't even warp to a celestial due to low cap, and generally amounts to a massive defender's advantage in any fight. It also hurts Jump Freighter logistics massively.

It certainly fixes your complaint with small-gang hot-drops but breaks large fights.

This will probably get attention with the Capitals changes since it affects them the most. Yes, this is a ways off and you're probably not happy with it, but you're hardly the only stakeholder in the issue and pretending like there's some simple, easy fix that's going to, if not satisfy all parties than at least leave most of them not frothing in rage, is silly.
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#497 - 2013-09-04 02:19:40 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
The problem with this is that it penalizes attackers overly much by scattering them around the system, could put capital ships in a position where they can't even warp to a celestial due to low cap, and generally amounts to a massive defender's advantage in any fight. It also hurts Jump Freighter logistics massively.

It certainly fixes your complaint with small-gang hot-drops but breaks large fights.



It actually does not penalise attackers. It helps them.

I assume you mean in a fleet context?

it would actually allow attackers to stage themselves with somewhat more precision than everyone simply arriving in a humungous blob on top of the cyno beacon.

A few well-placed cloaked scouts could serve as warp-in spots in order to assemble the fleet at the combat site at correct ranges.

Thinking forward to on-grid boosting, initial ship placement will be an important consideration.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Cade Windstalker
#498 - 2013-09-04 04:01:16 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It actually does not penalise attackers. It helps them.

I assume you mean in a fleet context?

it would actually allow attackers to stage themselves with somewhat more precision than everyone simply arriving in a humungous blob on top of the cyno beacon.

A few well-placed cloaked scouts could serve as warp-in spots in order to assemble the fleet at the combat site at correct ranges.

Thinking forward to on-grid boosting, initial ship placement will be an important consideration.


Except that generally "in a huge blob and all in one place" is exactly where you want people. Dropping everyone all over the system gives an even remotely prepared enemy time to scan down half your capital ships, tackle them, and pop them.

Dreadnaughts take about 30 seconds to align and warp, if you have probes out when the fleet hits the system you can have people on-grid with these ships before they can align out without even taking into account the time for orders to go out for them to assemble somewhere. It wouldn't even be that hard, just have probing ships outside a staging POS in command of pinning squads, they start furiously scanning as soon as the Cyno drops and with the size of a Dread or Carrier they won't even need to be very tight in their probe formations in order to get a lock. Immediately warp the squad to the signal, tackle, and drop a kill wing on it (which is easy because it's capped out from the jump and trying to regen with cap-boosters). Now the attacker's have lost half their capitals before the fight's even really started.
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#499 - 2013-09-04 10:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyon Rheyne
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Except that generally "in a huge blob and all in one place" is exactly where you want people. Dropping everyone all over the system gives an even remotely prepared enemy time to scan down half your capital ships, tackle them, and pop them.


But where is the problem here? Just make them ALL drop to one place, but this place should be chosen randomly (or, even better, there should be some "warp's destination coordinates' skew" and whole blob will be dropped in some proximity to the cynofield, at a random spot in an area of, say, 5 au around the cynofield.)
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
#500 - 2013-09-04 11:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It actually does not penalise attackers. It helps them.

I assume you mean in a fleet context?

it would actually allow attackers to stage themselves with somewhat more precision than everyone simply arriving in a humungous blob on top of the cyno beacon.

A few well-placed cloaked scouts could serve as warp-in spots in order to assemble the fleet at the combat site at correct ranges.

Thinking forward to on-grid boosting, initial ship placement will be an important consideration.


Except that generally "in a huge blob and all in one place" is exactly where you want people. Dropping everyone all over the system gives an even remotely prepared enemy time to scan down half your capital ships, tackle them, and pop them.

Dreadnaughts take about 30 seconds to align and warp, if you have probes out when the fleet hits the system you can have people on-grid with these ships before they can align out without even taking into account the time for orders to go out for them to assemble somewhere. It wouldn't even be that hard, just have probing ships outside a staging POS in command of pinning squads, they start furiously scanning as soon as the Cyno drops and with the size of a Dread or Carrier they won't even need to be very tight in their probe formations in order to get a lock. Immediately warp the squad to the signal, tackle, and drop a kill wing on it (which is easy because it's capped out from the jump and trying to regen with cap-boosters). Now the attacker's have lost half their capitals before the fight's even really started.


With the best will in the world, scanning a dread, getting into warp and landing in sufficiently short time to get a target lock takes very close to, or more than, 30 seconds. Most of your warp time is acceleration and deceleration. Not actual 6AU/second warping.

Even if a defending fleet had enough scrambling probe ships to lock down all the incoming dreads, what then?

It only takes a subcap or two to warp to each stricken dread to clean off the offending player.

OK, so the battlefield might suddenly shift to somewhere new if the defender decides to blob one dread.

Cool! A new dynamic and crazy fleet battle ensues, with neither side having an the unfair advantage of sitting on grid with logistics, sensor boosters and drone assist primed and ready to go.

This is better.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".