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CCP! Please clarify the future plans for WiS!

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Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#261 - 2011-10-25 17:35:59 UTC
Aston Bradley wrote:


I don't think you are trolling, and believe or not. I strongly support your theory. Still, i believe WiS a worth working on. Even if takes an other 3 years (As long as FiS content keeps coming while it get's there.)


lol see above. Im not changing my tune either, I felt this way all along. Its just the ppl that are now crying cause they shelved WiS that are pissing me off. GUYS let CCP HEAL before they decide to take another stab at WiS. Another round of mass unsub cause they shelved WiS is gonna do nothing but get more people on the street without a job.

Its a Black Spiral theyre Dancing here. Mass unsub they shelf WiS/WoD. More mass unsubs They now HAVE to do somethting along the lines of working on several projects like they said they couldnt do in the first place. Unfinished content/underwhelming expansions follow and more mass unsubs (mind you all this time CCP (and the accounts) is getting smaller).

When does it end? I can tell you there would be a point where it definately ends and not to "doom and gloom" but if we use mass unsubs to be the catalyst of that change thats where its GONNA end up.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#262 - 2011-10-25 17:38:51 UTC
Tashanaka wrote:
Rees Noturana wrote:
...Looks like plenty of Asian MMOs use it. The problem may be integrating with FiS and having 2 different engines to content with.


They already have the engine for Incarna and it supposed to be the same one in WoD and likely Dust as well. That's what most of this time was spent on, making the engine. CCP ran out of time to make any real *gameplay* for Incarna and we ended up with a single CQ with almost zero gameplay. As we seen with over heating, it also needed/needs some optimization work.

Gameplay is the key to Incarna and CCP has yet to talk about compelling gameplay for Incarna. Yes, they covered some items in 2008 that have yet to make it live. However, even that wasn't very compelling.

I could see myself spending some time sitting in a station bar playing poker, but I can already do that via the IGB. Plus, I'd rather play poker for ISK than Aururm. Other mini-games will also get old quickly and hardly be worth leaving the hanger. Corp offices & meeting space: I'm not that much of a role player, we have voice-coms & forums for our corp needs.

So, CCP, please make compelling gameplay for Incarna. I want it someday, but NEVER at the expense of EVE spaceships.


Dust is listed on the Unreal engine page. I have no idea if that is accurate though.

Compelling gameplay for Incarna must involve conflict and they've kept saying it doesn't. Without conflict there is no purpose. Without conflict it is indeed just a fashion show. This core fact must change in their planning.

_ _
Astor Daeoli
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#263 - 2011-10-25 17:39:59 UTC
Aston Bradley wrote:
Astor Daeoli wrote:
What's the point in being able to walk around in station if you can't interact with the other 1,500+ people in the station?

Allowing us to walk out of an empty captain's quarter and into an empty station or a station with only NPCs to interact with...what's the point of that?

Why even bother spending resources on that?



As an in station trader i have to facepalm that. Depsite common belief, eve isn't just pew pew in space. Trading has at the very least, one half of the cut.

While i am managing my contracts and sales, walking around Jita that will be overpopulated with other traders like myself, is a VERY welcome feature.


Dear Aston,

As I mentioned above, CCP does not have the platform nor the technology to alow you to "mingle" with the other traders in Jita. It's just not possible.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#264 - 2011-10-25 17:59:27 UTC
Rees Noturana wrote:
yumike wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Few, if any, people wish to prioritize Incarna content over FIS content. That path led to disaster.

What people want is for core game play development to be the priority again, but for the core tech of Incarna (and more importantly a proper content plan) to continue to be developed when and where possible.

I think most understand that especially right now, very few resources can be directed towards this work. But few is far better than none for now, especially if good sense is employeed when allocating development resources in the future.

Above all, the desire is for it not to be shelved completely... and for what work that is being done be centered around building a solid plan for inelligent game play. The EVE player base will not accept the tech being developed simply for eventual use in WOD. If it's going to be in our game, it damn well needs to serve an intelligent purpose.


Of course, but CCP seems to be only focusing on one thing at a time, a devblog in '10 said specifically that they'd had over 70% of their development staff working on incarna since apocrypha, which is no surprise our 'expansions'/'changes' have been so lame since that expansion. I think most people would happily say "Switch that to 20% and keep other stuff coming, we can wait"
But in response CCP has shelved the entire thing it seems. To be honest I was surprised with how interesting some of the stuff looked at fanfest, but if it add's no gameplay perspective and is just glitter, thats a whole lot of wasted development time that could have been spent elsewhere.

I think CCP has again got the signals crossed and is making a mistake by dropping the idea entirely, but it is a serious improvement over last year, and the year before.


I'm getting the feeling that the HIlmar quote was an exaggeration. Other comments sprinkled throughout the forums lead me to believe that there may actually be a small team still working on Incarna. I'm loving that they are knocking out a ton of spaceship related content though. When you don't have to build an entire framework the devs can make quick changes that get to the player base much faster. If they can get Incarna to a stable point we should see the same thing there.


A dev in another thread (and I think I posted it also earlier in this thread) said it is on "Ice" because they can't figure out what would make it fun. :-( They really don't get it.

There is no team working on Incarna other than to deliver the other CQs. Then as Hilmar said, "there would be Incarna" so Incarna now means Captains Space Prison Cells.

Issler
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#265 - 2011-10-25 18:09:15 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:


A dev in another thread (and I think I posted it also earlier in this thread) said it is on "Ice" because they can't figure out what would make it fun. :-( They really don't get it.

There is no team working on Incarna other than to deliver the other CQs. Then as Hilmar said, "there would be Incarna" so Incarna now means Captains Space Prison Cells.

Issler



Im thinking the problem here is theyre looking at WiS along the terms with what they can do with the technology they currently have. Given that the technology they currently have, they cant do what would be needed to make it "fun" (that includes player suggestions).

Or thats how that reads to me.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#266 - 2011-10-25 18:12:39 UTC
Maybe it's time we just designed it for them.

_ _
Barakkus
#267 - 2011-10-25 18:25:25 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Aston Bradley wrote:


I don't think you are trolling, and believe or not. I strongly support your theory. Still, i believe WiS a worth working on. Even if takes an other 3 years (As long as FiS content keeps coming while it get's there.)


lol see above. Im not changing my tune either, I felt this way all along. Its just the ppl that are now crying cause they shelved WiS that are pissing me off. GUYS let CCP HEAL before they decide to take another stab at WiS. Another round of mass unsub cause they shelved WiS is gonna do nothing but get more people on the street without a job.

Its a Black Spiral theyre Dancing here. Mass unsub they shelf WiS/WoD. More mass unsubs They now HAVE to do somethting along the lines of working on several projects like they said they couldnt do in the first place. Unfinished content/underwhelming expansions follow and more mass unsubs (mind you all this time CCP (and the accounts) is getting smaller).

When does it end? I can tell you there would be a point where it definately ends and not to "doom and gloom" but if we use mass unsubs to be the catalyst of that change thats where its GONNA end up.


Just quoting because people need to understand what is being said here.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#268 - 2011-10-25 18:28:58 UTC
Rees Noturana wrote:
Maybe it's time we just designed it for them.



I'm all for that! I'd also like them to consider building it with the engine they licensed for DUST. We know that can be commercialized!

A real common mistake that has killed many a game effort if the belief that best in class graphics is instant win, in fact there have been a number of very "pretty" games that had no interesting game play or content that failed horribly. The Unreal engine used in Dust is plenty good enough to get us our seedy bars were naughty men can slip about and create out smuggling empires or our corporate boardrooms and museum hangars.

Issler
Astor Daeoli
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#269 - 2011-10-25 18:33:44 UTC
You can't make EVE into "The Sims in space" with the EVE server.

The most people you can have in The Sims is about 40 in one room/instance.

EVE is built on a single server, EVE is not built with an instanced platform.

Just imagine the lag in Jita if CCP tried to build "The Sims in Space" allowing 40 people per room with incarna's graphics! You would get a FPS of 0.001!

If CCP did allow sperate servers to run "room" instances for 40 people at a time say, a portion of your corp, then what would the special 40 players do together? Dance around in groups while disconnected from EVE real time economy? CCP would not be able to integrate this in real time into the main EVE server becasue of lag. Do you want time dilation for trading? Do you want to wait 60 mins to buy an item? You would end up with 40 people slow walking around each other. Why would you want this?
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#270 - 2011-10-25 18:33:51 UTC
IMO, a lot of us did want WiS.. Where CCP fell short is that they thought we wanted WiS to the exclusion of everything else..

I for one would still love to see general station environment, establishments, Slay, and most importantly the TACTICAL MAP ROOM (**** that would have been awesome for FC's) we just didn't want them ignoring spaceships all together..

I am a little irked by the latest statements that WiS development has 'stopped' and may be brought back in the future.. They migfht as well just remove CQ entirely if that's the case, since CQ is pretty much useless.

Spaceships first,

WIS second.. it's that simple.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#271 - 2011-10-25 18:38:30 UTC
Astor Daeoli wrote:
You can't make EVE into "The Sims in space" with the EVE server.

The most people you can have in The Sims is about 40 in one room/instance.

EVE is built on a single server, EVE is not built with an instanced platform.

Just imagine the lag in Jita if CCP tried to build "The Sims in Space" allowing 40 people per room with incarna's graphics! You would get a FPS of 0.001!

If CCP did allow sperate servers to run "room" instances for 40 people at a time say, a portion of your corp, then what would the special 40 players do together? Dance around in groups while disconnected from EVE real time economy? CCP would not be able to integrate this in real time into the main EVE server becasue of lag. Do you want time dilation for trading? Do you want to wait 60 mins to buy an item? You would end up with 40 people slow walking around each other. Why would you want this?


This is a point as well. We're never gonna get the one game one server thing with WiS without destroying the game for both WiS players and EVE players

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Astor Daeoli
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#272 - 2011-10-25 18:39:01 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
IMO, a lot of us did want WiS.. Where CCP fell short is that they thought we wanted WiS to the exclusion of everything else..

I for one would still love to see general station environment, establishments, Slay, and most importantly the TACTICAL MAP ROOM (**** that would have been awesome for FC's) we just didn't want them ignoring spaceships all together..

I am a little irked by the latest statements that WiS development has 'stopped' and may be brought back in the future.. They migfht as well just remove CQ entirely if that's the case, since CQ is pretty much useless.

Spaceships first,

WIS second.. it's that simple.


I can't see EVE running at a playable FPS 40+ people instance with incarna's graphics while mainttaining a real time connection to theEVE's server?

Would a CCP dev like to comment about this? Am I right or can CCP do this?
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#273 - 2011-10-25 18:40:00 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
They might as well just remove CQ entirely if that's the case, since CQ is pretty much useless.



I agree with this as well. Roll it back, remove this and rework it. Its obvious it needs work anyways.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#274 - 2011-10-25 18:41:30 UTC
Astor Daeoli wrote:
Chandaris wrote:
IMO, a lot of us did want WiS.. Where CCP fell short is that they thought we wanted WiS to the exclusion of everything else..

I for one would still love to see general station environment, establishments, Slay, and most importantly the TACTICAL MAP ROOM (**** that would have been awesome for FC's) we just didn't want them ignoring spaceships all together..

I am a little irked by the latest statements that WiS development has 'stopped' and may be brought back in the future.. They migfht as well just remove CQ entirely if that's the case, since CQ is pretty much useless.

Spaceships first,

WIS second.. it's that simple.


I can't see EVE running at a playable FPS 40+ people instance with incarna's graphics while mainttaining a real time connection to theEVE's server?

Would a CCP dev like to comment about this? Am I right or can CCP do this?


Ok, so instance WiS without instancing new eden.... at least give us some functional gameplay or just get rid of it .. a mirror and a sofa and three commercials? what was the point..
Barakkus
#275 - 2011-10-25 18:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Barakkus
Astor Daeoli wrote:
You can't make EVE into "The Sims in space" with the EVE server.

The most people you can have in The Sims is about 40 in one room/instance.

EVE is built on a single server, EVE is not built with an instanced platform.

Just imagine the lag in Jita if CCP tried to build "The Sims in Space" allowing 40 people per room with incarna's graphics! You would get a FPS of 0.001!

If CCP did allow sperate servers to run "room" instances for 40 people at a time say, a portion of your corp, then what would the special 40 players do together? Dance around in groups while disconnected from EVE real time economy? CCP would not be able to integrate this in real time into the main EVE server becasue of lag. Do you want time dilation for trading? Do you want to wait 60 mins to buy an item? You would end up with 40 people slow walking around each other. Why would you want this?


Wow, you have absolutely no idea what is behind the actual running of TQ if you think EVE is on a single server, or any clue how multiplayer games work if you think that the number of people you're going to be able to get in one area is going to be constrained that badly by the hardware TQ runs on.

The WiS was going to be run on a separate cluster anyways.

If anything it's going to be mostly a problem client side getting tons of people running around.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#276 - 2011-10-25 18:48:40 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Astor Daeoli wrote:
You can't make EVE into "The Sims in space" with the EVE server.

The most people you can have in The Sims is about 40 in one room/instance.

EVE is built on a single server, EVE is not built with an instanced platform.

Just imagine the lag in Jita if CCP tried to build "The Sims in Space" allowing 40 people per room with incarna's graphics! You would get a FPS of 0.001!

If CCP did allow sperate servers to run "room" instances for 40 people at a time say, a portion of your corp, then what would the special 40 players do together? Dance around in groups while disconnected from EVE real time economy? CCP would not be able to integrate this in real time into the main EVE server becasue of lag. Do you want time dilation for trading? Do you want to wait 60 mins to buy an item? You would end up with 40 people slow walking around each other. Why would you want this?


This is a point as well. We're never gonna get the one game one server thing with WiS without destroying the game for both WiS players and EVE players


EVE may be one shard but it's made up of a lot of individual server blades. They've split a lot of different things to different blades so that spaceships stay at top speeds. The CarbonIO changes were also going to be key to handling a large number of avatars in one place. Curious what the final "avatar bandwidth" was. Maybe low enough to shelve the whole thing.

Anyway, I'd still like the focus to not be creating the Jita marketplace but creating points of conflict.

_ _
Daquaris
Aegis Victorium
The Initiative.
#277 - 2011-10-25 18:55:22 UTC
No we don't.

Get out.
Astor Daeoli
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#278 - 2011-10-25 18:57:25 UTC
Barakkus wrote:
Astor Daeoli wrote:
You can't make EVE into "The Sims in space" with the EVE server.

The most people you can have in The Sims is about 40 in one room/instance.

EVE is built on a single server, EVE is not built with an instanced platform.

Just imagine the lag in Jita if CCP tried to build "The Sims in Space" allowing 40 people per room with incarna's graphics! You would get a FPS of 0.001!

If CCP did allow sperate servers to run "room" instances for 40 people at a time say, a portion of your corp, then what would the special 40 players do together? Dance around in groups while disconnected from EVE real time economy? CCP would not be able to integrate this in real time into the main EVE server becasue of lag. Do you want time dilation for trading? Do you want to wait 60 mins to buy an item? You would end up with 40 people slow walking around each other. Why would you want this?


Wow, you have absolutely no idea what is behind the actual running of TQ if you think EVE is on a single server, or any clue how multiplayer games work if you think that the number of people you're going to be able to get in one area is going to be constrained that badly by the hardware TQ runs on.

The WiS was going to be run on a separate cluster anyways.

If anything it's going to be mostly a problem client side getting tons of people running around.



You are correct, I do not know how TQ runs. I am not a developer; however, I have played a lot of MMORPGs that launched with high level graphics.

These game suffered from a lot of lag with smaller numbers of players per shard/shell than the average population of Jita.

The graphics used in CQ already overheat my GPU (nvidea GTX260) with just one avatar in the room.

In a few years time, say 2013 post Nvidea maxwell GPU (an expesive bit of kit when it comes out) we should get a gpu that can handle 40? to 125? incarna avatars with good fps. Maybe this would be the time for CCP to work on making "The Sims in Sapce"
Aston Bradley
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2011-10-25 18:58:40 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Chandaris wrote:
They might as well just remove CQ entirely if that's the case, since CQ is pretty much useless.



I agree with this as well. Roll it back, remove this and rework it. Its obvious it needs work anyways.



Surely they migh aswell remove CQ, and most of us won't even notice the loss.

That being said. The engine is there, and while it needs alot of work, it still has potentiel.

I would suggest to aim lower. If WiS is too much trouble, focus an a corp room first or allow friends to join your CQ. Get the social aspect in Incarna and it's very appreciable tool to have.

If mini-games, a whole station, npc's interaction, and the capacity to rez 100+ character is too much of pain, go for something simple but effective.

Astor Daeoli wrote:

Aston,

As I mentioned above, CCP does not have the platform nor the technology to alow you to "mingle" with the other traders in Jita. It's just not possible.



At the moment, i have agree with you.

But it is my hope that a part of ccp will keep working on it. Even if that means wait an other 3-4 years untill they get to it, provided that they keep 9/10 of their staff and ressources to fix and develop FiS.

Understand this :

I am an incarna hater too, but i am not a WiS station. WiS in it's core idea is a good feature, it's execution in incarna is just horrible.

[i]FiS should be the priority, but WiS should not be burried!

Don't encourage CCP to make empty promises or Incarna will happen again![/i]
ugh zug
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2011-10-25 18:58:58 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
I think most people DO want walking in stations, just not the way it was implemented.

Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.