These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP! Please clarify the future plans for WiS!

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#241 - 2011-10-25 16:50:41 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Tommy Laughingface wrote:
Myfanwy Heimdal wrote:
Tommy Laughingface wrote:


Uber idea! We need Texas Hold 'em in EVE Online, WiS rocks!


Why not just open a browser window and log onto a proper poker site? Why have CCP divert resources from WiS/FiS to provide something which is already provided for elsewhere?


Okay... well, why don't you go play "other" space games and not EVE?


why dont you stop trying to change the game by destroying the company that makes it? This is never gonna be what you want. Move on.


Respectfully, although you repeat that point often, it is not correct.

They cannot continue development the way the have in the past, this includes development of classic FIS EVE content. Hilmars interview pointed out many serious issues with how development (including the process of getting feedback from the community, and the level of effort and time required to keep the various teams/locations in sync) resources were not being utilized effectively. Even with FIS content they have been digging the hole of unfinished content deeper and deeper over the years, and it's starting to have a serious negative effect.

The truth is that on all levels they need to change HOW they have been doing things. Much of the necessary restructuring has been done or is currently underway (regretfully at the cost of many good employees), and the benefits are starting to show already.

Bottom line: Developing Incarna did not do the damage to CCP. HOW they went about doing it did.


Taking all the devs but six from EVE and putting them on other projects is what caused serious damage to EVE to be honest. Along with splitting their focus across DUST, and WoD/Incarna (because they are linked). Focussing BACK on EVE (where it never should have left) and fixing/finishing those unfinished projects is what they need to do imo. AFTER THAT they can work on your precious WiS IF it doesnt bleed resources from EVE or damage the company.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Aston Bradley
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2011-10-25 16:52:56 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Aston Bradley wrote:

And i am looking forward to them. Going back to FiS is a very good move.

Still, i hope you guys put WiS in a box, Wrap it in tape, put it in a safe, add chains to it, and burry it deep underground.

And from the recent interviews, that seems to be your plan.


Fixed

I Agree


Fixed

and i don't agree

Nice try

Lol

[i]FiS should be the priority, but WiS should not be burried!

Don't encourage CCP to make empty promises or Incarna will happen again![/i]
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#243 - 2011-10-25 16:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Aston Bradley wrote:
Astor Daeoli wrote:
What's the point in being able to walk around in station if you can't interact with the other 1,500+ people in the station?

Allowing us to walk out of an empty captain's quarter and into an empty station or a station with only NPCs to interact with...what's the point of that?

Why even bother spending resources on that?



As an in station trader i have to facepalm that. Depsite common belief, eve isn't just pew pew in space. Trading has at the very least, one half of the cut.

While i am managing my contracts and sales, walking around Jita that will be overpopulated with other traders like myself, is a VERY welcome feature.


uh... the rest of the game would like a word with you if you think your profession is half the ppl in the game
Love the people that think their demographic is all there is to the game and they are the main focus (including me)

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#244 - 2011-10-25 16:54:46 UTC
Hey, you can have all the World of Evecraft that you want. But don't take away the ship spinning or forget what the basis of this is all about, and that's FiS, aka Eve Online. 
"If."
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#245 - 2011-10-25 16:55:00 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Aston Bradley wrote:
And why not both?


The last two years showed why not. They cant. Even with more personnel.

Yep... I can't think any other company what would present playable tech demo to their customers, ditch it down to drain and start building new one from scratch, only to realize that the end product is total piece of junk :)

It really takes skills and eventually will make Incarna compete about the NukeDukem "forever"-title. Only few more years to go.


There is a saying in software development, build one to throw away. You learn a lot and on the second try you get a much better foundation. They could have taken an existing framework and just built the content but CCP likes making their own stuff. It's just harder and takes longer.

MUCH longer. What?

_ _
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#246 - 2011-10-25 16:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Rees Noturana wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Aston Bradley wrote:
And why not both?


The last two years showed why not. They cant. Even with more personnel.

Yep... I can't think any other company what would present playable tech demo to their customers, ditch it down to drain and start building new one from scratch, only to realize that the end product is total piece of junk :)

It really takes skills and eventually will make Incarna compete about the NukeDukem "forever"-title. Only few more years to go.


There is a saying in software development, build one to throw away. You learn a lot and on the second try you get a much better foundation. They could have taken an existing framework and just built the content but CCP likes making their own stuff. It's just harder and takes longer.

MUCH longer. What?


Funny, I wonder if DUST wasnt that and now theyre forced to go through with it, having abandoned all their other projects

Given the damage Incarna (or in Ranger1's view, the way it was made) has caused with the company that runs our game, youd think the WiS lovers would give them time to RECOVER before threatening to unsub an all that unless they work on their pet mini game

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Aston Bradley
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2011-10-25 16:59:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Aston Bradley
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Aston Bradley wrote:
Astor Daeoli wrote:
What's the point in being able to walk around in station if you can't interact with the other 1,500+ people in the station?

Allowing us to walk out of an empty captain's quarter and into an empty station or a station with only NPCs to interact with...what's the point of that?

Why even bother spending resources on that?



As an in station trader i have to facepalm that. Depsite common belief, eve isn't just pew pew in space. Trading has at the very least, one half of the cut.

While i am managing my contracts and sales, walking around Jita that will be overpopulated with other traders like myself, is a VERY welcome feature.


uh... the rest of the game would like a word with you if you think your profession is half the ppl in the game
Love the people that think their demographic is all there is to the game and they are the main focus (including me)



Simple to prove.

Go to all the main trading hubs, and make the sum of all the traders you'll find. Take the number you get and make the ratio with the connected players.

Still... Yes i have exagerated a bit, but i do say... a bit Lol

[i]FiS should be the priority, but WiS should not be burried!

Don't encourage CCP to make empty promises or Incarna will happen again![/i]
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#248 - 2011-10-25 17:04:17 UTC
I want WiS.

I do not want WiS, an FPS, and unrelated mmo, all at the cost of FiS.

it's not rocket science :)
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#249 - 2011-10-25 17:05:01 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Funny, I wonder if DUST wasnt that and now theyre forced to go through with it, having abandoned all their other projects

Given the damage Incarna (or in Ranger1's view, the way it was made) has caused with the company that runs our game, youd think the WiS lovers would give them time to RECOVER before threatening to unsub an all that unless they work on their pet mini game


Dust does use an existing framework from what I remember. I think it is probably the most on-track of all the projects because they can just focus on the content and the EVE tie-ins. Maybe they can take a lesson from that and use an licensed engine and then we can get walking in stations, fighting in starbases, exploring sleeper sites in a reasonable time frame.

By the way, walking in stations is the least interesting thing we can do on foot. I want to lead a research team into exploration sites to fight, hack and loot. Maybe do the same on planets and moons.

_ _
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#250 - 2011-10-25 17:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Aston Bradley wrote:



Simple to prove.

Go to all the main trading hubs, and make the sum of all the traders you'll find. Take the number you get and make the ratio with the connected players.

Still... Yes i have exagerated a bit, but i do say... a bit Lol


How many of this giant percentage of the player base are human out of curiosity?
Might as well try an say 50% of the ppl in 0.0 are miners cause there are so many bot mining fleets out there

nice try tho.

Rees Noturana wrote:
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Funny, I wonder if DUST wasnt that and now theyre forced to go through with it, having abandoned all their other projects

Given the damage Incarna (or in Ranger1's view, the way it was made) has caused with the company that runs our game, youd think the WiS lovers would give them time to RECOVER before threatening to unsub an all that unless they work on their pet mini game


Dust does use an existing framework from what I remember. I think it is probably the most on-track of all the projects because they can just focus on the content and the EVE tie-ins. Maybe they can take a lesson from that and use an licensed engine and then we can get walking in stations, fighting in starbases, exploring sleeper sites in a reasonable time frame.

By the way, walking in stations is the least interesting thing we can do on foot. I want to lead a research team into exploration sites to fight, hack and loot. Maybe do the same on planets and moons.


WiS powered by Unreal

Would this be the first MMO to outsource in game engines from another company or is this a common practice and Ive never been keen enough to notice it

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Aston Bradley
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2011-10-25 17:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Aston Bradley
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Aston Bradley wrote:



Simple to prove.

Go to all the main trading hubs, and make the sum of all the traders you'll find. Take the number you get and make the ratio with the connected players.

Still... Yes i have exagerated a bit, but i do say... a bit Lol


How many of this giant percentage of the player base are human out of curiosity?
Might as well try an say 50% of the ppl in 0.0 are miners cause there are so many bot mining fleets out there

nice try tho.


I am talking about main hubs in empire, and in-station traders (They havn't found a bot system for that yet).

I don't remember talking about 0.0, and mining.

I kindly return the compliment Cool

[i]FiS should be the priority, but WiS should not be burried!

Don't encourage CCP to make empty promises or Incarna will happen again![/i]
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#252 - 2011-10-25 17:18:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Aston Bradley wrote:


I don't remember talking about 0.0, and mining.

I kindly return the compliment Cool


You didnt and I dont remember saying you did.... I was making a comparison. Not THAT hard to figure out

An um... using Google (editted as teyre proliferating enough, I dont need to direct ppl to them) I see all kinds of links for them including ones that boast "in-station trading"

So what was the throwaway project? Looks to me (Im biased) but WiS looks the most disposable.

Also not trying to troll this time, but look at the available projects:
DUST, WoD or WiS.

I know its hard, but Im not trying to troll, it just looks kinda obvious to me that if WiS wasnt the disposable bit here, theyd have repurposed code and content guys from WoD to WiS after they decided to refocus. Coding monkeys from WoD could work in EVE's WiS stuff given theyre supposedly both running on the same engine yes? So why didnt they? I get the money and that rather huge loan coming due, but they could have made the cut more broader and kept the WoD talent.
Youd think those guys would be gold, working on JUST WiS style content, as I dont see any other kind of content being put in WoD. SO, they gut the WoD devs and stop working on WiS. Looks pretty damn obvious what theyre planning

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#253 - 2011-10-25 17:18:49 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
WiS powered by Unreal

Would this be the first MMO to outsource in game engines from another company or is this a common practice and Ive never been keen enough to notice it


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

Looks like plenty of Asian MMOs use it. The problem may be integrating with FiS and having 2 different engines to content with.

_ _
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#254 - 2011-10-25 17:21:23 UTC
Rees Noturana wrote:
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
WiS powered by Unreal

Would this be the first MMO to outsource in game engines from another company or is this a common practice and Ive never been keen enough to notice it


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

Looks like plenty of Asian MMOs use it. The problem may be integrating with FiS and having 2 different engines to content with.


ah, likely I never saw it before as Ive never played them

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
yumike
Doomheim
#255 - 2011-10-25 17:24:21 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Few, if any, people wish to prioritize Incarna content over FIS content. That path led to disaster.

What people want is for core game play development to be the priority again, but for the core tech of Incarna (and more importantly a proper content plan) to continue to be developed when and where possible.

I think most understand that especially right now, very few resources can be directed towards this work. But few is far better than none for now, especially if good sense is employeed when allocating development resources in the future.

Above all, the desire is for it not to be shelved completely... and for what work that is being done be centered around building a solid plan for inelligent game play. The EVE player base will not accept the tech being developed simply for eventual use in WOD. If it's going to be in our game, it damn well needs to serve an intelligent purpose.


Of course, but CCP seems to be only focusing on one thing at a time, a devblog in '10 said specifically that they'd had over 70% of their development staff working on incarna since apocrypha, which is no surprise our 'expansions'/'changes' have been so lame since that expansion. I think most people would happily say "Switch that to 20% and keep other stuff coming, we can wait"
But in response CCP has shelved the entire thing it seems. To be honest I was surprised with how interesting some of the stuff looked at fanfest, but if it add's no gameplay perspective and is just glitter, thats a whole lot of wasted development time that could have been spent elsewhere.

I think CCP has again got the signals crossed and is making a mistake by dropping the idea entirely, but it is a serious improvement over last year, and the year before.
Aston Bradley
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#256 - 2011-10-25 17:26:36 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Aston Bradley wrote:


I don't remember talking about 0.0, and mining.

I kindly return the compliment Cool


You didnt and I dont remember saying you did.... I was making a comparison. Not THAT hard to figure out

An um... using Google (editted as teyre proliferating enough, I dont need to direct ppl to them) I see all kinds of links for them including ones that boast "in-station trading"

So what was the throwaway project? Looks to me (Im biased) but WiS looks the most disposable.

Also not trying to troll this time, but look at the available projects:
DUST, WoD or WiS.

I know its hard, but Im not trying to troll, it just looks kinda obvious to me that if WiS wasnt the disposable bit here, theyd have repurposed code and content guys from WoD to WiS after they decided to refocus. Coding monkeys from WoD could work in EVE's WiS stuff given theyre supposedly both running on the same engine yes? So why didnt they? I get the money and that rather huge loan coming due, but they could have made the cut more broader and kept the WoD talent.
Youd think those guys would be gold, working on JUST WiS style content, as I dont see any other kind of content being put in WoD. SO, they gut the WoD devs and stop working on WiS. Looks pretty damn obvious what theyre planning


I don't think you are trolling, and believe or not. I strongly support your theory. Still, i believe WiS a worth working on. Even if takes an other 3 years (As long as FiS content keeps coming while it get's there.)

[i]FiS should be the priority, but WiS should not be burried!

Don't encourage CCP to make empty promises or Incarna will happen again![/i]
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#257 - 2011-10-25 17:29:23 UTC
Ya know, Im cool with you all having your WiS as long as they dont make it manditory for me (I remember reading a dev blog or an interview wher ea CCP said they were planning on removing the button that allows you to opt out of WiS - thats likely where a lot of your "WiS" hate comes from) it doesnt impact my EVE playing, or doesnt impact the development of my EVE either.

You all can have your fun mini game. Im cool with that. Just dont let it infringe upon the rest of the game, and dont let it damage the company that runs our shared game.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Barakkus
#258 - 2011-10-25 17:30:31 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Ya know, Im cool with you all having your WiS as long as they dont make it manditory for me (I remember reading a dev blog or an interview wher ea CCP said they were planning on removing the button that allows you to opt out of WiS - thats likely where a lot of your "WiS" hate comes from) it doesnt impact my EVE playing, or doesnt impact the development of my EVE either.

You all can have your fun mini game. Im cool with that. Just dont let it infringe upon the rest of the game, and dont let it damage the company that runs our shared game.


I think both sides of the debate can all agree on exactly this.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#259 - 2011-10-25 17:31:00 UTC
yumike wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Few, if any, people wish to prioritize Incarna content over FIS content. That path led to disaster.

What people want is for core game play development to be the priority again, but for the core tech of Incarna (and more importantly a proper content plan) to continue to be developed when and where possible.

I think most understand that especially right now, very few resources can be directed towards this work. But few is far better than none for now, especially if good sense is employeed when allocating development resources in the future.

Above all, the desire is for it not to be shelved completely... and for what work that is being done be centered around building a solid plan for inelligent game play. The EVE player base will not accept the tech being developed simply for eventual use in WOD. If it's going to be in our game, it damn well needs to serve an intelligent purpose.


Of course, but CCP seems to be only focusing on one thing at a time, a devblog in '10 said specifically that they'd had over 70% of their development staff working on incarna since apocrypha, which is no surprise our 'expansions'/'changes' have been so lame since that expansion. I think most people would happily say "Switch that to 20% and keep other stuff coming, we can wait"
But in response CCP has shelved the entire thing it seems. To be honest I was surprised with how interesting some of the stuff looked at fanfest, but if it add's no gameplay perspective and is just glitter, thats a whole lot of wasted development time that could have been spent elsewhere.

I think CCP has again got the signals crossed and is making a mistake by dropping the idea entirely, but it is a serious improvement over last year, and the year before.


I'm getting the feeling that the HIlmar quote was an exaggeration. Other comments sprinkled throughout the forums lead me to believe that there may actually be a small team still working on Incarna. I'm loving that they are knocking out a ton of spaceship related content though. When you don't have to build an entire framework the devs can make quick changes that get to the player base much faster. If they can get Incarna to a stable point we should see the same thing there.

_ _
Tashanaka
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2011-10-25 17:34:20 UTC
Rees Noturana wrote:
...Looks like plenty of Asian MMOs use it. The problem may be integrating with FiS and having 2 different engines to content with.


They already have the engine for Incarna and it supposed to be the same one in WoD and likely Dust as well. That's what most of this time was spent on, making the engine. CCP ran out of time to make any real *gameplay* for Incarna and we ended up with a single CQ with almost zero gameplay. As we seen with over heating, it also needed/needs some optimization work.

Gameplay is the key to Incarna and CCP has yet to talk about compelling gameplay for Incarna. Yes, they covered some items in 2008 that have yet to make it live. However, even that wasn't very compelling.

I could see myself spending some time sitting in a station bar playing poker, but I can already do that via the IGB. Plus, I'd rather play poker for ISK than Aururm. Other mini-games will also get old quickly and hardly be worth leaving the hanger. Corp offices & meeting space: I'm not that much of a role player, we have voice-coms & forums for our corp needs.

So, CCP, please make compelling gameplay for Incarna. I want it someday, but NEVER at the expense of EVE spaceships.