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! DEPRECATED -- Winter Expansion: Crucible SUMMARY (Updated 11/9)

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Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#61 - 2011-10-26 19:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
as i mention in post above it will have high(EFT) dps but it cant track like varg and tank like girl,no drones and putting web on it is not gonna happen if you don't want cane to insta pop ya, so i don't know well see.... but if all other ship have bonuses to engage smaller targets i curious why tornado don't have...i am aware projectiles have good tracking but we are talking large guns here.

Tracking is really not that big an issue when you sit at 30km and just wail with your guns. You should be able to lay down 600 dps minimum while kiting. And, if you fit it with Artillery and gank mods for sniping, it's basically an affordable and easy-to-train-for sniper Machariel minus a small percentage of the alpha.

The Tornado's bonus for engaging smaller targets is its range. You wouldn't realize this, but one of the best ships in the game for eating frigates is the Cynabal purely because it can engage and do great DPS at 30km with Barrage -- in combination with its speed, it can keep this range easily, where it tracks them just fine. The same principle applies to the Machariel, and by extension, the Tornado.

I am looking at a 100mn AB Talos with Electrons, and I am hating what I see. It's obviously far too good. (edit: only partially exaggerating here... i'd much rather see this with 75% webs TBH)

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#62 - 2011-10-26 21:28:47 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:

Amarr - Oracle
8 highs, 3 mids, 6 lows
8 turrets, 0 launchers
No drones
Role bonuses to fitting and capacitor usage for large laser turrets
Range (7.5/lv) and tracking speed (7.5/lv) bonuses to large laser turrets
33 percent faster and 9 percent lighter than the Prophecy and Harbinger

Caldari - Naga
8 highs, 6 mids, 4 lows (one more slot than any other)
8 turrets, 8 launchers (holy crap)
No drones
Role bonuses to fitting and capacitor usage for large hybrid turrets and siege launchers (torpedoes)
Range (10/lv) and tracking speed (7.5/lv) bonuses to large hybrid turrets, and torpedo velocity (10/lv) and explosion-velocity (5/lv)
39 percent faster and 11 percent lighter than the Ferox and Drake

Gallente - Talos
8 highs, 4 mids, 5 lows
8 turrets, 0 launchers
25 drone bay, 25 drone bandwidth
Role bonuses to fitting and capacitor usage for large hybrid turrets
Bonuses to damage of large hybrid turrets (5/lv) and stasis webifier effectiveness (10/lv)
45 percent faster and 9.5 percent lighter than the (current) Brutix and Myrmidon

Minmatar - Tornado
8 highs, 5 mids, 4 lows
8 turrets, 0 launchers
No drones
Role bonuses to fitting for large projectile turrets
Bonuses to rate of fire (-5/lv) and falloff (10/lv) of large projectile turrets
36 percent faster and 6 percent lighter than the Cyclone and Hurricane



Poor amarr and caldari, their two ships will be terrible. When will CCP learn that every single ship in the game without a damage bonus (excluding haulers/logi and such) sucks? These two new ones will be no exception to that rule. The fix is outrageously simple however, just replace the largely useless tracking (or explosion velocity) bonus with a 5% per lvl RoF bonus. Problem solved.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#63 - 2011-10-26 21:39:09 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:

Tracking is really not that big an issue when you sit at 30km and just wail with your guns. You should be able to lay down 600 dps minimum while kiting. And, if you fit it with Artillery and gank mods for sniping, it's basically an affordable and easy-to-train-for sniper Machariel minus a small percentage of the alpha.

The Tornado's bonus for engaging smaller targets is its range. You wouldn't realize this, but one of the best ships in the game for eating frigates is the Cynabal purely because it can engage and do great DPS at 30km with Barrage -- in combination with its speed, it can keep this range easily, where it tracks them just fine. The same principle applies to the Machariel, and by extension, the Tornado.

I am looking at a 100mn AB Talos with Electrons, and I am hating what I see. It's obviously far too good. (edit: only partially exaggerating here... i'd much rather see this with 75% webs TBH)


^^This....My initial (very quick, even more dirty + heavily sleep-deprived) calcs show that the Toro is going to be a good 0.4-0.42km/s faster than a similarly fitted 'Cane or 'Clone, and with certain implants/gang-boosts is glancing towards Vagabond territory, speed wise.

Like the Vaga, Cynabal, or NanoCane/NanoClone, if it's webbed and scrammed--especially by the new Frog-monster--then it almost certainly dies.

I do hope that CCP sees fit to give all 4 of these ships a secondary racial E-WAR bonus to keep this balanced, as I would love to see Gallente be good for more than just lolsuicidegank and/or drone-swarm--and I don't really fly them at all:

Galli: Web-strength...or maybe extra range to scrams, instead?
Caldi: Target Painting
Minni: Web-range (within reasonable limits--I'm thinking maximum 20km, like a max-skilled Hyena, not 40+ like the Rapier/Huginn)
Amarr: Tracking Disrupt or neut/Nos (not both!)

Ni.
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2011-10-26 21:43:17 UTC
CCP should add a remote hull repping logistic (Faction maybe a cross between Amarr & Caldari)

give it similar bonuses to a guardian except for remote hull reppers rather than armor reps.

then real men can finally hull tank in blobs

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#65 - 2011-10-27 00:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
King Rothgar wrote:
Poor amarr and caldari, their two ships will be terrible. When will CCP learn that every single ship in the game without a damage bonus (excluding haulers/logi and such) sucks? These two new ones will be no exception to that rule. The fix is outrageously simple however, just replace the largely useless tracking (or explosion velocity) bonus with a 5% per lvl RoF bonus. Problem solved.

Their strengths, especially that of the Naga, lie in sheer number of weapons. Ignoring hybrids (sadface), the Naga does the exact same DPS as a Torpedo Raven but with an explosion velocity bonus. The DPS, if this were to be changed like this, would be completely absurd, as high as a Raven State Issue's before equipment. Not that this absolutely guaranteed to be a bad thing, but it's setting a new high, which is dangerous.

And the Oracle has fantastic sniping-support DPS with Tachyons, plus it's a genuine nanoship with good Megapulse range so it's really not entirely ****. I am looking forward to all of them, but I'm afraid of how good the Talos is.

I expect all these numbers to change significantly of course.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#66 - 2011-10-27 02:07:05 UTC
The tornado appears to be the best of them to me. It will be the quickest, most agile and have the highest medium range dps (30-50km). I will give you the torp setup on the caldari one being pretty nasty due to the much higher base damage of them compared to other weapons. But the amarr one will be very light on the DPS side.

It's important to note that we are assuming you can fit tachyons on the amarr one. And there is no guarantee of that. As it stands, I don't know of any amarr ship that can actually fit 8x tachs without filling up their rig slots with ACR's or lows with RCU's. I see MPII's as a far more likely configuration. So we'll be using scorch with it, have a 60-70km optimal and around 500 dps due to the lack of a damage bonus. For comparison, the minmatar one will likely pump out 900-1000 dps at 50km and have an overall range of around 70-80km. In essence, as it's currently proposed the minmatar BC will be faster, more agile, do nearly twice the damage and even have better gun range. Oh, and it's guns are capless in addition to the ship having more tank (all of these will be shield tanked typically).

I strongly believe the amarr version should have -1 low, +1 mid and lose the worthless tracking bonus in favor of a RoF or damage bonus. The hybrid turret bonus on the caldari version should see the same change while leaving the torp bonuses alone. Hell, a double range bonus would be more useful than tracking. Amarr ships and tracking bonuses simply don't mix. Take a look at just how popular the phantasm or succubus are for proof. And those do have a damage bonus.Roll

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
Cat Scratch Fevers
#67 - 2011-10-27 02:23:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Bison
Great initial info.
I will be suprised if the ship stats hold all the way to production.
I can very well see a reduction in the High Power slots to 6 turret/missile by release time as I would not expect these pocket battleships to have full battleship damage but, still a butt-load.

Oh, and if the Highs are reduced, I could see a 25m3/25Mbit drone bay on each, 75m3/50Mbit on Gallente.

Nothing clever at this time.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#68 - 2011-10-27 02:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
King Rothgar wrote:
The tornado appears to be the best of them to me. It will be the quickest, most agile and have the highest medium range dps (30-50km). I will give you the torp setup on the caldari one being pretty nasty due to the much higher base damage of them compared to other weapons. But the amarr one will be very light on the DPS side.

It's important to note that we are assuming you can fit tachyons on the amarr one. And there is no guarantee of that. As it stands, I don't know of any amarr ship that can actually fit 8x tachs without filling up their rig slots with ACR's or lows with RCU's. I see MPII's as a far more likely configuration. So we'll be using scorch with it, have a 60-70km optimal and around 500 dps due to the lack of a damage bonus. For comparison, the minmatar one will likely pump out 900-1000 dps at 50km and have an overall range of around 70-80km. In essence, as it's currently proposed the minmatar BC will be faster, more agile, do nearly twice the damage and even have better gun range. Oh, and it's guns are capless in addition to the ship having more tank (all of these will be shield tanked typically).

I strongly believe the amarr version should have -1 low, +1 mid and lose the worthless tracking bonus in favor of a RoF or damage bonus. The hybrid turret bonus on the caldari version should see the same change while leaving the torp bonuses alone. Hell, a double range bonus would be more useful than tracking. Amarr ships and tracking bonuses simply don't mix. Take a look at just how popular the phantasm or succubus are for proof. And those do have a damage bonus.Roll

No, mate. I downloaded the PYFA build to try them out with these stats. Tachyons are very fittable, and the Oracle and Talos are just great with armor. The Oracle only has 3 mids, and the Talos has that web bonus and is obligatorily armor. You can still get >40k ehp out of them with only a couple mods and rigs.

As for the Tornado doing 1000 DPS at 50km: Sadly, no. It can maybe do a bit less than 500 with 2 gyros and two TE autocannon fit, or about 680 with artillery at that range, but not 900. Nowhere near. It's missing the drones and that extra low-slot that finishes up the Maelstrom's DPS to make it so beefy, so it can never quite match up on that front. It does get the same gorgeous alpha with the arties though.

The Oracle has plenty of power grid and can fit Tachyons, a weapon rig, and a MWD without fitting mods, though not much of a tank (with tachs, without fitting mods). It gets a fine tank with Mega pulses or Mega beams, no problem. It puts out the most DPS of any of the other new battlecruisers at range by a fat margin, 20% or more, and has fabulous tracking at that range to boot. I think we will be seeing a fair amount of them.

I got these numbers from the special Pyfa build at http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=256841 so have at it.



Nick Bison wrote:
Great initial info.
I will be suprised if the ship stats hold all the way to production.
I can very well see a reduction in the High Power slots to 6 turret/missile by release time as I would not expect these pocket battleships to have full battleship damage but, still a butt-load.

Oh, and if the Highs are reduced, I could see a 25m3/25Mbit drone bay on each, 75m3/50Mbit on Gallente.

I'm not sure if I see them reducing the number of guns. They were designed to be anticapital, and the sheer number of expensive weapons adds greatly to their overall cost and the expense and difficulty of getting ammo for them (look how much frickin ammo they use!)

Also, as several people have pointed out, these are firmly aimed to be a threat against capitals and supercapitals, giving an even greater necessity for a subcapital support fleet to escort your supercaps, as it should be. I am not sure about some of the bonuses, but battleship DPS with less than 1/4 the tank feels about right to me.

In any case, yes, I agree that we will probably see a lot of these numbers changing.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-10-27 13:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
Iam Widdershins wrote:
David Grogan wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:

You'd best be trolling. Suicide ganking doesn't have a very large effect on miner subscription rate, nor could suicide ganking become that prevalent, nor will the new ships necessarily be any better for suiciding. If anything they will be about as effective but cost significantly more.


bullcrap........... for one thing and even by goon's own admission the new tier 3 bc will be way better to suicide gank in.
why?
1. less cost than a bs yet same dps (tank doesnt matter a **** for suicide gankers)
2. it will fit inside an orca so easy to warp a nuetral orca on top of a miner along with the suicide ganker in a pod and pull the tier3 bc out and gank the miner
3. a bc locks alot faster than a bs does
4. a bc moves alot faster than a bs does

look at how many miners are mining in gallente and caldari space right now...............a lot lot less than it was before goons started the ganking

Calm the hell down mate.

From the looks of it, the Tornado will have 6 turrets -- probably with a rate of fire bonus, not a damage bonus -- so chances are it won't have super great alpha. A Brutix or autocannon Hurricane will probably still be able to do more damage in a single gank.

Honestly, who knows how this is going to turn out. You're already assuming that all these things will make the new 3T BCs the perfect ganking ships ("less cost than a bs yet same dps") and lamenting that EVE will be over and all the miners will quit. Please get real.

Plus, miners don't actually have that big an effect on the global economy anyway, not nearly as much as you'd think. The majority of minerals used in production come from reprocessed mission loot right now.



they will have 8 turrets not 6 and yes miners do have an big impact on eve........via SUBS.... less SUBS less resources to pay CCP Staff with.......resulting in even more layoffs. Longer Development times... poorer bug fix rates.

Killing off miners will most definitely cause more harm to the game than botting does right now. A lot of players are casual players.... most of these casual players are miners/mission runners... in real life these players tend to be in the 40 to 60 age group... they mine while chatting to their friends in game.... to them its more about a social interaction experience while doing a task that isn't complicated... being in a blob in 0.0 often means u don't get a relaxed atmosphere because you should be busy listening to your FC and thus not chatting.... if you do chat in fleet you will usually hear the FC telling u to shut up.

Players in high sec choose high sec cos they don't want to listen to an FC all day telling people to shut up. They like to sit and chat away to their corp mates while to mine. If you deny them the ability to mine they get fed up and cancel subs.... now CCP have given gankers better tools to one shot miners with (3T BC + Buffed destroyers with the rof penalty removed) even mission runners wont be safe from gankers.

If people can't be allowed to mine or mission in high sec they will simply unsub and go play a different game.

We want eve to grow in numbers of players not continue to shrink....


Sadly i feel Miners will end up like the Moa in New Zealand did........ hunted to extinction

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#70 - 2011-10-27 13:57:12 UTC
David Grogan wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:
David Grogan wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:

You'd best be trolling. Suicide ganking doesn't have a very large effect on miner subscription rate, nor could suicide ganking become that prevalent, nor will the new ships necessarily be any better for suiciding. If anything they will be about as effective but cost significantly more.


bullcrap........... for one thing and even by goon's own admission the new tier 3 bc will be way better to suicide gank in.
why?
1. less cost than a bs yet same dps (tank doesnt matter a **** for suicide gankers)
2. it will fit inside an orca so easy to warp a nuetral orca on top of a miner along with the suicide ganker in a pod and pull the tier3 bc out and gank the miner
3. a bc locks alot faster than a bs does
4. a bc moves alot faster than a bs does

look at how many miners are mining in gallente and caldari space right now...............a lot lot less than it was before goons started the ganking

Calm the hell down mate.

From the looks of it, the Tornado will have 6 turrets -- probably with a rate of fire bonus, not a damage bonus -- so chances are it won't have super great alpha. A Brutix or autocannon Hurricane will probably still be able to do more damage in a single gank.

Honestly, who knows how this is going to turn out. You're already assuming that all these things will make the new 3T BCs the perfect ganking ships ("less cost than a bs yet same dps") and lamenting that EVE will be over and all the miners will quit. Please get real.

Plus, miners don't actually have that big an effect on the global economy anyway, not nearly as much as you'd think. The majority of minerals used in production come from reprocessed mission loot right now.



they will have 8 turrets not 6 and yes miners do have an big impact on eve........via SUBS.... less SUBS less resources to pay CCP Staff with.......resulting in even more layoffs. Longer Development times... poorer bug fix rates.

Killing off miners will most definitely cause more harm to the game than botting does right now. A lot of players are casual players.... most of these casual players are miners/mission runners... in real life these players tend to be in the 40 to 60 age group... they mine while chatting to their friends in game.... to them its more about a social interaction experience while doing a task that isn't complicated... being in a blob in 0.0 often means u don't get a relaxed atmosphere because you should be busy listening to your FC and thus not chatting.... if you do chat in fleet you will usually hear the FC telling u to shut up.

Players in high sec choose high sec cos they don't want to listen to an FC all day telling people to shut up. They like to sit and chat away to their corp mates while to mine. If you deny them the ability to mine they get fed up and cancel subs.... now CCP have given gankers better tools to one shot miners with (3T BC + Buffed destroyers with the rof penalty removed) even mission runners wont be safe from gankers.

If people can't be allowed to mine or mission in high sec they will simply unsub and go play a different game.

We want eve to grow in numbers of players not continue to shrink....


Sadly i feel Miners will end up like the Moa in New Zealand did........ hunted to extinction


confirming the new BCs will end mining as a profession and destroy eve Roll

Don't get me wrong, I like ridiculous hyperbole and jumping to conclusions as much as the next guy. Hell, these are my favorite tools when screaming incoherently at CCP. But you have to use some style. Some couth and tact. Some... je ne sais quoi

Miners in high sec will learn to adapt. Perhaps by using communication, setting standings, etc...
Bots however... well they learn too but at a slower rate.
Eiyla Rindour
Truth Behind Omega
#71 - 2011-10-27 14:22:13 UTC
Epiphaniess wrote:
Looks like the Tornado is going to be the least impressive of them all.

The Naga being able to choose between hybrids or torpedos is going to be really nice. And having an 18 slots instead of the 17.
With 6 mids and 4 lows going to be able to field a decent tank and gank for the class, and have a few mids to spare for tackle, along with the tracking bonuses it is going to have a nice range of ships it can take on.

The Talos is going to be a beast, with the web and damage bonus, drones. Hybrid super buff that looks to be coming along. It looks like it is going to be one scary ship. Everything is not going to want to run into one in a dark alleyway, frigs, cruisers, other BCs.

I feel kind of bad for the Oracle and the Tornado.


I'm sorry but this kinda made me laugh. Everyone is so worried that their beloved winmatar ship isn't going to be top of the class anymore. Really?? Honestly its about ******* time. The idea of gallente hybrid boat being the most feared BC is AWESOME to me.

I *knew* there was a reason I put all of my sp into hybrids...Twisted
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#72 - 2011-10-27 14:54:47 UTC
No way current tier 3 stats are going live.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#73 - 2011-10-27 21:20:15 UTC
Eiyla Rindour wrote:
I *knew* there was a reason I put all of my sp into hybrids...Twisted

Probably because it's not like you're going to run out. Train for lasers now! They are great!



Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
No way current tier 3 stats are going live.

Yeah, but it's good having a preview of the sort of idea CCP is looking at.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#74 - 2011-10-27 22:29:36 UTC
maybe you can update the Op with links to the pictures of the new ships.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#75 - 2011-10-27 22:38:44 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
maybe you can update the Op with links to the pictures of the new ships.

Indubitably. I've already hit max post size and had to trim things off though. Same with the prelim specifics post. I need to make reserve posts next time.

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Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#76 - 2011-10-27 23:05:31 UTC
I'll just drop this pic here of the new crow/raptor

http://i.imgur.com/z3WQf.jpg

Stuff Goes here
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#77 - 2011-10-28 00:27:42 UTC
Mr LaForge wrote:
I'll just drop this pic here of the new crow/raptor

http://i.imgur.com/z3WQf.jpg

I like it. Do you have sources?

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Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#78 - 2011-10-28 00:39:49 UTC
drools on his nerd boner

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#79 - 2011-10-28 01:17:17 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Mr LaForge wrote:
I'll just drop this pic here of the new crow/raptor

http://i.imgur.com/z3WQf.jpg

I like it. Do you have sources?


That doesnt look like ccp's engine.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#80 - 2011-10-28 01:21:39 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Mr LaForge wrote:
I'll just drop this pic here of the new crow/raptor

http://i.imgur.com/z3WQf.jpg

I like it. Do you have sources?


That doesnt look like ccp's engine.

It's probably a 3rd party modeling tool rendering a model pulled from blueprint files in a recent test server dump

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