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Try our new hacking/archaeology sites!

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Heinel Coventina
Doomheim
#101 - 2013-05-23 01:23:23 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Removing sleepers from Radars and Mags in wspace is not a good idea without adding additional content to them. It is going to be just to easy right now to collect hacking loot meaning the prices will drop and noone will go to those sites anyway.


If you want to kill NPCs, just go to anomalies.

In order for hacking and archaeology to be a viable profession, it needs to be applicable to a wide variety of environments. Instead of crying about changes to places you don't go to anyway, take a step back and look at the big picture. If they are successful in pushing the explorer profession to the forefront, low and null will become a lot more target-rich in terms of pvp and ganking opportunities, and the targets will actually be carrying valuable stuff too.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2013-05-23 01:31:45 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Removing sleepers from Radars and Mags in wspace is not a good idea without adding additional content to them. It is going to be just to easy right now to collect hacking loot meaning the prices will drop and noone will go to those sites anyway.

It is a great change, it allows people to slip into W-space and run a couple of those sites and make a bit of isk. It maybe true it will caus the value of those sites to drop but that will coincide with the T3 nerf we will soon see.


Yeah, because people are just SUPPOSED to slip in and out of C5's and C6's, pick up easy to grab loot, and trundle off back into empire after a few hours! /s


I can with confidence say, Yes they are supposed be slipped in and out of and head home after a few hours. CCP stated during fanfest that they never really intended for WH to be lived in.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Akyla Dey
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2013-05-23 01:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Akyla Dey
+1 for Sleepers staying in Wspace profession sites. We'll do the hacking game, we'll put up with the silly scanning changes. Just don't take away the little content we have.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#104 - 2013-05-23 01:37:51 UTC
right now the loot is so bad that I see no reason to ever do one of the sites ever right now on tq I get about 2-6 decryptors per
I think the minigame is ok albeit a bit too hard with low skills
the can spewing is probably gets harder the small your screen is and then worse your pc and even on my wide screen desktop I find that the cans spread a bit too quickly
the time required to do them has increased by probably 10 times per can as well which makes it even worse that the loot is crap
if it stays like that decryptors are going to be hardly used cause their price will be in the 50-500 mil range and that will reflect in the price of t2

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
#105 - 2013-05-23 01:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalot Sakaar
Not understanding where this is all going or what CCP is hoping to do....

1. Anyone with very minimal sp investment and in relatively cheap ships can go anywhere and run these sites now, even in WH space/null sec. And they will. Where is the progression? The ever increasingly difficult rats meant that you have to invest training time and bring more capable ships to run the harder and more lucrative sites. Now where is the incentive to progress? There is none. Low risk, high potential reward. But no progression or reward for those who have invested the time to specialize in this activity. Of course, the more I think about it, we'll just have more interdiction nullified/cloaky T3's flying around doing this with little to no risk of getting caught. (which can be trained into fairly quickly if your not doing hard core PvP or PVE with, just travelling around playing a mini game completely divorced and counter to the rest of this game.) A mini-game which in my opinion stands completely at odds with the core fundamentals of this game. (ie risk vs reward)

2. There is really no incentive to do this with friends...who cares if some cans get away. The ease of doing this and the ability to quickly move with little risk just means blitz as many sites as you can and since there are no rats, just solo any site even in a C5 in your Helios. RIDICULOUS.

2. Anyone excited about this change as a new player thinking "ohhh, now I can go farm all that empty care bear null sec and WH's for sites and I'll be rich"... think again. With it being so easy now, prices on all this stuff will just tank as supply goes through the roof. (there will be a brief period of hey day but not long I think.)

3. So these sites are getting these great loot tables I see, but the really hard DED sites and unrated which require much more effort, risk, often times team work are not being looked at? Where is the risk/reward curve here? This kind of reminds me when incursions came out and you could just make stupid isk with little to no risk....

4. Played around on the test server. Found the novelty of the mini-game ok I guess...but I'll burn out on it after about a week I think. The twitch game can spew thing is.....terrible.

Recommendation:

You can't hack a site with a ship that has a cloak on it or is interdicted nullified and while your hacking your sig radius goes to 1500 so you can be found and killed as otherwise there is zero risk to this activity.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#106 - 2013-05-23 01:44:07 UTC
Well to me it sounds tempting to do a couple wh sites when i find a lot of wh's anyway as a side product of exploration.
In so far i'm not against the removal. Keep in mind sleepers still spawn when you fail the hacking so doing C5/C6 sites in a exploration frig is not gonna be an option for day trippers. As far as content goes arn't a couple more visitors for hunting down content too?
Granted i don't know enough about life in WH's and all the repercusions. Perhaps a compromise can be found that everybody is happy with but then CCP doesn't seem to be in the mood for compromises lately...
Verushka Atreides
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2013-05-23 01:59:28 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats?
Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers.


This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP.



Surely you are kidding?

Is the intent here to destroy the t3 market?

Are you trying to remove all PVE combat locations in wh space that require probes to be found?
Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
#108 - 2013-05-23 02:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalot Sakaar
Johan Toralen wrote:
Well to me it sounds tempting to do a couple wh sites when i find a lot of wh's anyway as a side product of exploration.
In so far i'm not against the removal. Keep in mind sleepers still spawn when you fail the hacking so doing C5/C6 sites in a exploration frig is not gonna be an option for day trippers. As far as content goes arn't a couple more visitors for hunting down content too?
Granted i don't know enough about life in WH's and all the repercusions. Perhaps a compromise can be found that everybody is happy with but then CCP doesn't seem to be in the mood for compromises lately...


I hear you. And that seems to be the thought process perhaps? But who knows because CCP isn't really explaining what they are trying to accomplish in my opinion....but you know that after a bit everyone will have this mini-game completely mastered and posted in their wiki's. Then the chance of failing a site will drop to zilch and you don't have to worry about rats. And who cares if you do fail a hack? You can still get out before the rat gets you. Where is the risk? NOW.. fail a hack and your ship is suddenly instantly scrammed, webbed, neuted and you DIE right then and there.... ya, now that would be EVE and then it would be cool.

I mean I thought with this expansion we would be getting cool new stuff to explore, new space, new types of sites, new rats, new something. The whole wonder of exploration they were talking about. Instead they just took a pretty good system and introduced a mini-game completely divorced from the rest of EVE that nullifies the whole point of skilling up and getting better and taking risk for big reward.

Overall too easy, too WOW, too meh

No sir, not seeing this as a positive step.
Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-05-23 02:07:11 UTC
mynnna wrote:
The whole point of the loot spew is that it encourages bringing friends. The loot you can grab on your own is balanced to be worth doing alone, or should be once the drop tables are finalized. You might even get lucky and snag one of the high value cans and get something like a faction tower BPC. Because of the way it's setup, you can bring friends and not decrease your overall income, and maybe even increase it, since more cans means more shots at those juicy ones. And, the design means that the friends have to be actual friends instead of just a second or third account as with so many other supposedly "social" activities in eve.

Because of this, if they were tuned for one person, you wouldn't be missing out on loot, because the extra loot you can't get on your own wouldn't be there in the first place.

It's great that you'e posting here, Mynna, our CSM representative hard at work.

As you seem so impressed with the game play of sitting around waiting for someone else to do something and then chasing some cans around for loot that you've done nothing to earn it occurred to me that we could use the same mechanic in farms and fields.

Simply make each Moon Harvester spew out 400 cans randomly once/hour. A player that's paying attention and sitting at the pos can grab 2 before they leave the pos shield, and 6 or so beyond the pos shield before they despawn. 300 of the cans will have junk in (eg N1 moon loot) and 100 will have the valuable moon resource. There, I just thought of engaging content that keeps fifty players occupied around the clock for each moon harvester.

Having the moon minerals leave the pos shields will encourage PvP and raiding for moon minerals, which will be even more interesting and interactive content.

I trust that you will champion this idea to CCP devs at every opportunity.
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#110 - 2013-05-23 02:17:20 UTC
Celia Therone wrote:
mynnna wrote:
The whole point of the loot spew is that it encourages bringing friends. The loot you can grab on your own is balanced to be worth doing alone, or should be once the drop tables are finalized. You might even get lucky and snag one of the high value cans and get something like a faction tower BPC. Because of the way it's setup, you can bring friends and not decrease your overall income, and maybe even increase it, since more cans means more shots at those juicy ones. And, the design means that the friends have to be actual friends instead of just a second or third account as with so many other supposedly "social" activities in eve.

Because of this, if they were tuned for one person, you wouldn't be missing out on loot, because the extra loot you can't get on your own wouldn't be there in the first place.

It's great that you'e posting here, Mynna, our CSM representative hard at work.

As you seem so impressed with the game play of sitting around waiting for someone else to do something and then chasing some cans around for loot that you've done nothing to earn it occurred to me that we could use the same mechanic in farms and fields.

Simply make each Moon Harvester spew out 400 cans randomly once/hour. A player that's paying attention and sitting at the pos can grab 2 before they leave the pos shield, and 6 or so beyond the pos shield before they despawn. 300 of the cans will have junk in (eg N1 moon loot) and 100 will have the valuable moon resource. There, I just thought of engaging content that keeps fifty players occupied around the clock for each moon harvester.

Having the moon minerals leave the pos shields will encourage PvP and raiding for moon minerals, which will be even more interesting and interactive content.

I trust that you will champion this idea to CCP devs at every opportunity.


i love the pos idea!
Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
#111 - 2013-05-23 02:18:30 UTC
Celia Therone wrote:
mynnna wrote:

It's great that you'e posting here, Mynna, our CSM representative hard at work.

As you seem so impressed with the game play of sitting around waiting for someone else to do something and then chasing some cans around for loot that you've done nothing to earn it occurred to me that we could use the same mechanic in farms and fields.

Simply make each Moon Harvester spew out 400 cans randomly once/hour. A player that's paying attention and sitting at the pos can grab 2 before they leave the pos shield, and 6 or so beyond the pos shield before they despawn. 300 of the cans will have junk in (eg N1 moon loot) and 100 will have the valuable moon resource. There, I just thought of engaging content that keeps fifty players occupied around the clock for each moon harvester.

Having the moon minerals leave the pos shields will encourage PvP and raiding for moon minerals, which will be even more interesting and interactive content.

I trust that you will champion this idea to CCP devs at every opportunity.


Oh, my god, that is funny.
Indo Nira
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-05-23 02:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Indo Nira
Celia Therone wrote:
mynnna wrote:
stuff

It's great that you'e posting here, Mynna, our CSM representative hard at work.

As you seem so impressed with the game play of sitting around waiting for someone else to do something and then chasing some cans around for loot that you've done nothing to earn it occurred to me that we could use the same mechanic in farms and fields.

Simply make each Moon Harvester spew out 400 cans randomly once/hour. A player that's paying attention and sitting at the pos can grab 2 before they leave the pos shield, and 6 or so beyond the pos shield before they despawn. 300 of the cans will have junk in (eg N1 moon loot) and 100 will have the valuable moon resource. There, I just thought of engaging content that keeps fifty players occupied around the clock for each moon harvester.

Having the moon minerals leave the pos shields will encourage PvP and raiding for moon minerals, which will be even more interesting and interactive content.

I trust that you will champion this idea to CCP devs at every opportunity.


i approve of this
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#113 - 2013-05-23 02:28:49 UTC
Kalot Sakaar wrote:
I hear you. And that seems to be the thought process perhaps? But who knows because CCP isn't really explaining what they are trying to accomplish in my opinion....but you know that after a bit everyone will have this mini-game completely mastered and posted in their wiki's. Then the chance of failing a site will drop to zilch and you don't have to worry about rats. And who cares if you do fail a hack. You can still get out before the rat gets you. Where is the risk? NOW.. fail a hack and your ship is suddenly instantly scrammed, webbed, neuted and you DIE right then and there.... ya, now that would be EVE and then it would be cool.


I think you are overdramatizing a bit. Professions sites never were as profitable as running combat sites even in hisec (talk about risk/reward). The loot drop is so bad right now we can be happy if it reaches similar numbers to the old sites come Odyssey. In so far it's not unreasonable that the sites are less dangerous then combat sites. But still you make it sound like there is no risk at all which isn't true. It's so easy now to scan down the sites (if you cant scan down the ship). Explorers will be busy with the damn cans instead of checking dscan and local. Also last time i checked you can't run the sites cloaked (regarding your recommendation how to fix it).

Quote:
I mean I thought with this expansion we would be getting cool new stuff to explore, new space, new types of sites, new rats, new something. The whole wonder of exploration they were talking about. Instead they just took a pretty good system and introduced a mini-game completely divorced from the rest of EVE that nullifies the whole point of skilling up and getting better and taking risk for big reward.

Overall too easy, too WOW, too meh

No sir, not seeing this as a positive step.


Got to agree with you on that one. Pretty underwhelmed so far with all the changes and new stuff. The Effects are nice and all but i was hoping for new stuff that is actualy enjoyable to do and to look for "between the stars".
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#114 - 2013-05-23 02:33:36 UTC
As a periodical binge explorer (going hard for a week or two) I am of opinion that loot explosion is worse than stationary "pick up loot from can" mechanic. My reason is not because I can't get all the loot but that twitchy game play where you chase stuff frantically, over and over and over and over again, is extremely annoying. It would take a special kind of nerd to enjoy this.

Also, being the "team mates" waiting for loot bukake while doing nothing except maybe spamming dscan appears to be super unexciting. I can't see myself bothering with these sites because of this annoying mechanic.

Please rethink this explosion business.
Wenthrial Solamar
Brand Newbros
#115 - 2013-05-23 02:41:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Wenthrial Solamar
mynnna wrote:
Well if people don't like the loot spew, that's another matter.

But a fair number of the complaints I've seen have been essentially, "but I want to get ALL the loot why can't I get all the loot", which sort of indicates a missing of the point of the loot spew. Blink


No, the main complaint is that:
1. you scan alone,
2. you hack alone.
3. You need friends to loot ?

This is broken design, implementation also has issues, but that is a distraction form the primary design flaw.

Design may be fixed, any number of ways, that have been discussed in this thread and others on the topic, but in order for the loot mechanic to fit, the principal the design needs to change so that:
1. You scan better with friends [ likely not possible, so must be compensated for in #2]
2. You Hack better with friends
3. Then you loot better with friends

With out that change to the basic principals involved in the game play, the looting mechanic is not a benefit to any one no matter how innovative it is and well implemented it may become.

edit:
The value of the site's contents needs to reflect the effort involved... so if it is best found, and hacked alone ... even if it is not what the designers want , it is best looted alone, and the drop tables need to be adjusted to reflect that.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2013-05-23 02:57:18 UTC
Wenthrial Solamar wrote:
No, the main complaint is that:
1. you scan alone,
2. you hack alone.
3. You need friends to loot ?

No, you don't.
Your blatant misunderstanding doesn't automatically mean the mechanic is broken.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Circumstantial Evidence
#117 - 2013-05-23 03:02:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Circumstantial Evidence
Highsec (.6) Local Angel Minor Shipyard
Was not able to scan this site down (got to 90%) using Zephyr and sister core probes, level 4 scanning skills, no implants.
5 hackable structures

After clickfesting through all 5, failing two hacks and blowing up two rat frigates,
I felt good about getting 4 decryptors worth 26m (all) - about the best I've got from a highsec site.

Previously the rat(s) that spawned would "guard" the loot can, and required destruction to proceed.
I was able to ignore the rat spawn: I reactivated the data analyzer and completed the puzzle, loot cans spewed and scooped.

Rats spawned have a new type, "MiniProfession Frigate / Cruiser / Battlecruiser"
The new type needs to be checked by default, for the default-General overview.

Why a new type? Do they need a different Ai ?
Ahh... they don't leave a wreck behind (that I can see.)

Self Repair utility: is text complete?
"Using this utility element to increase the coherence of your virus by x"
-Is 'x' a placeholder for a variable showing the amount of increase?
"Using" -> "Use" (grammar tweak)
Shanis Vemane
Oldham Tinkers
#118 - 2013-05-23 03:07:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Shanis Vemane
Just been online testing the new explore stuff for the last few hours and have mixed thoughts. I think the new scanning system is much better, more streamlined and user friendly - certainly enough to make me reconsider a 'career' in exploration.

I didnt get round to trying out hacking but did a few relic sites (though from what I gather the mechanic is much the same).

The mini-game I found ok, though I can see how it could become a real drag after doing it for some time. The loot spewing, panic-click-stuck-on-debris-disappear-sad-face mechanic was frustrating at best. A suggestion here would be to increase the amount of time allowed to pick them up and/or slow the speed they fly off*?

I get that the intention is for having multiple people picking them up but personally I like flying solo (particularly when doing something like exploration or missions) and cant help but feel penalised for choosing to do so. Furthermore the loot I actually got from the sites was very poor - I look forward to checking this again tomorrow following the loot rebalance though. The idea of the whole mini-game and loot chase thing isn't too bad - as others have pointed out it will make for some interesting changes to pvp as people will be forced to turn their attention away from the d-scan.

On the wormhole issue - I'm not really experienced enough to comment but from what knowledge I do have, I'd suggest leaving the rats there, as the better loot would warrant the increased risk/difficulty of the site not to mention the additional salvage/loot from the rat wrecks.

Anyway, just my 2p worth. Overall looking forward to Odyssey, really like the new more accessible, user friendly scanning, not so big on the loot bombs in their current form.

*edit*
*Something of an afterthought but another suggestion for making the looting a little less painful would be to allow ships with multiple tractor beams fitted to grab more cans at once - e.g having 3 tractors fitted would mean being allowed to grab 3 cans simultaniously. Perhaps this would make it a little too easy though? (apologies if this feature is already present, I haven't yet tested/read about it).
AutumnWind1983
Reboot Required
#119 - 2013-05-23 03:08:06 UTC
Wormholes debuted in March of 2009. Since then we've gotten no new content. This expansion promises to bring cans exploding loot out into space. Will this get extremely annoying in less than four years? Yes it will.

Also I'm still not clear how this counts as exploration. I'm not finding anything I wasn't finding before.

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org
Wenthrial Solamar
Brand Newbros
#120 - 2013-05-23 04:06:51 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Wenthrial Solamar wrote:
No, the main complaint is that:
1. you scan alone,
2. you hack alone.
3. You need friends to loot ?

No, you don't.
Your blatant misunderstanding doesn't automatically mean the mechanic is broken.


ok... Maby I need to spell this out in small words with an example:

Current TQ C5 Radar site:
1. Scan down ( solo )
2. Bring fleet ( Logi, DPS, Capitols, pickets, you know lots of real players ), kill sleepers
3. Loot Combat wrecks... more real players in dedicated ships.
4. hack and Loot Cans ( one guy in a CovOps )
5. Go home.

New Sisi C5 Radar Site:
1. Scan down ( solo )
2. Hack ( solo )
3. Loot , Maybe bring a friend ? maybe let some loot go and get the same as #4 above .
4. go home.

Now I don't care if that is the intended outcome of the design change, but since the stated Purpose of the Loot explosion was to get you to bring more people ( not alts ) with you to the site, I think it is a flawed design.

Even compare it with a Combat site in k-space:
1. scan down with On board scanner ( solo , no benefit to having friends along )
2. Go kill stuff, If you can solo the site, you still can do it faster with a second player helping, so there is a clear reason to group up even if you do not.
3. Loot / salvage ... here again, you can choose to go it alone, use an alt, or just take the bounty, but if you do bring a second player you there is a clear reason for it since they can fly a dedicated salvage boat.
4. Find next site, since the Number of sites is High, a group completing them faster ( should ) be more profit for all.

Now clearly the advantage of forming a fleet for combat sites is too low since we do not see roaming fleets of players running Anom's, but the design of why you would want to have more people along and be social about things is not to hard to see, most steps int he process are better done with a group, at least in theory.

The new Radar/Mag sites do not have the same flow to them, only at one step is it useful to have a second player involved, and given the design aiming to have the solo loot be about the same as it is today, there is not a clear benefit to the new system except for the a corner case:
In which I already bring a friend allong on exploration roams to be social, there is now an opportunity in game for that second person to provide more than just company on com's.

So we go back to, the design has a problem; or more distinctly it is solving a problem that does not exist.
Having taken the Rat's out of the sites, they are now well suited to solo play; and the rewards for solo play will be about the same as they are today, except you will not have to reship or use an alt.
But There is an added feature that seems to be out in left field that says " If you fleet you will make more ", so now we want to being along a friend, that is real not an alt... but they have little or nothing to do for most of the time, while I scan, and hack solo, in game play that gains nothing from a fleet.

And to top it off, one of the places that Radar/Mag sites are best run in fleets, W-space, this change converts them to a good solo activity.

The Details of HOW the new mechanic were implemented are separate from the design issue IMHO, I can love or hate the loot explosion, and Mini game with out the design issue as I see it changing.
If the Goal is to make a fleet for exploration, then all, or at least most of the steps involved in the exploration process need to reward being in a fleet.