These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Try our new hacking/archaeology sites!

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2013-05-25 11:24:15 UTC
Yeah, I mean, seriously CCP. Get rid of the loot spew mechanic entirely.

I do not feel rewarded for having completed your hacking minigame, I feel punished.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Zeradn
Last Cartographers of Abyss
#342 - 2013-05-25 12:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeradn
I really liked the idea posted by someone here asking to change the spew mechanism so that once a player picks up a fixed number of cans, they disappear or the tractoring fails. Can be technically explained as a limitation to the special tractor beam being used. After a number of consecutive cycles, they have to be reset/recharged.

Another idea was the loot opening on success on first try, spewing on second. Or it could be two data cores in the hacking mini-game. One opens the loot properly, other can be considered as a partial error and spews the loot. Also considerable is the idea that the NPC spawn occurring as an effect of hacking a special node, something like a defence mechanism.

These type of variances might help make the whole hacking more interesting. Even with all the changes till now, this whack-a-mole setup (had been thinking that from the beginning, finally saw some one calling it what it is a few posts back) makes the whole hacking experience mildly frustrating. You should also remember that all these actions redirects your concentration from the d-scan and other hostile monitoring systems. That is additional risk in the 'risk vs rewards' scenario. So I guess we should be rewarded a bit more for all this effort (ie. in the low/null sec).

PS: I just thought of an explanation for the 'loot on first try/spew on second' or the 'one node loots/another spews' ideas. You are actually hacking a derelict ship/structure in order to open up the cargo bay to loot it. On a success full attempt, the cargo bay de-pressurizes first and then opens, thus not scattering the containers within. When you are unable to do that, you force-open the cargo bay on the second attempt or using a hacking node, causing violent de-pressurization that scatters the containers within. (The original ideas are no mine, only the technical explanations are mine).
Wasilah
Little Red X
#343 - 2013-05-25 13:16:10 UTC
omg people can we stop with the posts saying get rid of the can spew? they are going to put it in, get over it. offer some idea on how to make it better/more manageable rather than just crying about it. It's not so hard to get a decent number of cans solo unless your working with a stick for a hand and you control your ship by smashing your face into the keyboard/mouse.

That said, i do wish there was some benefit to opening the whole hacking map. I do it anyways just because i like the map and like seeing everything each map has (when i manage to beat everything) but it'd be even better if completing the map made the cans move valuable or something. Something like the % of the map you open raises the avg value of the cans that come out, values being base of what they are now (poop in my opinion) to what this guy/gal said:

blink alt wrote:
However, there were also occasions where I got several 'dickish' puzzles in a site and it ended up taking 20-25 minutes to do and the reward ended up being less than five million isk. Then I have also had the sites that took 13 minutes and ended up being 40-50 million. Quite honestly that is what has always annoyed me about professional sites, the loot variance. Spending 10-20 minutes on a site to get next to nothing is very discouraging and then having to pray for a 40-50 million site to hope for a decent average payout to make the time spent 'worthwhile' is not very appealing. I would much prefer a higher floor value per site, say 15 million, and a lower ceiling say 30 million instead of this 0-50 range I have experienced thus far.


then you can either do the sites quick for a little less payout but smash through a ton of sites or take a little extra time in each one for a much better payout but more risk of being caught sitting in a site.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#344 - 2013-05-25 13:33:25 UTC
Wasilah wrote:
omg people can we stop with the posts saying get rid of the can spew? they are going to put it in, get over it. offer some idea on how to make it better/more manageable rather than just crying about it. It's not so hard to get a decent number of cans solo unless your working with a stick for a hand and you control your ship by smashing your face into the keyboard/mouse.


Have you even read any thread regarding the loot spew? Ther's a ton of good ideas floating around for improvements.
And don't tell us not to complain about a feature that we genuinely dislike. We are all paying customers (or contribute greatly to CCP's income stream via plexing multiple accounts). It's our good right to voice our opinion. Not to mention that we do unpaid QA work for CCP. A paid QA would be considered useless and fired if he thinks everthing is great and doesn't criticize.

I can also tell you from my position being in game dev myself. We listen and consider critique even tho we often enough hate the whining masses. You can be sure even tho CCP will go through with this for Odyssey someone's scratching his head right now wondering if it was the right design choice and direction to take. This will be amplified in two weeks when the public outcry will start to pour in.
Degin'eth
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#345 - 2013-05-25 14:05:33 UTC
I found a way to get the FULL LOOT from a site, but the total value is still VERY small. From a full loot in null sec (-0.3) the value was ~10 million. Incredibly small for the time it takes to jump through gates > scan the sites > find a site > hack it and loot it > transport the goods to a tradehub (especially hard in null). And this is on the test sever, where people are not actively searching for sites. So, the loot needs to be MUCH more valuable otherwise nobody will bother to do them.. waste of feature and expansion.

Anyway, here's how you can get the full loot.

1) Use a cargo scanner on the hacking structure
2) See what kind of items drop. If it only drops data module (data cores, incognito process, etc).
3) When the cans are dispersed only loot the Data cans. Everything else will be scraps.
4) Repeat for the next structure
5) If the next one has salvage items, only loot Scraps cans and so on.



So, the bottom line. You can do these sites solo, and get the full loot, but it's still worthless to do because of the value.

Considering someone ratting can sit still, press F1, and instantly get their ISK, exploration should reward AT LEAST 50-100 mil / site.
Wasilah
Little Red X
#346 - 2013-05-25 14:13:59 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
Have you even read any thread regarding the loot spew? Ther's a ton of good ideas floating around for improvements.
And don't tell us not to complain about a feature that we genuinely dislike. We are all paying customers (or contribute greatly to CCP's income stream via plexing multiple accounts). It's our good right to voice our opinion. Not to mention that we do unpaid QA work for CCP. A paid QA would be considered useless and fired if he thinks everthing is great and doesn't criticize.


ok let me spell this out for you because you apparently didn't understand the implied context. I was talking about the people in this thread specifically. We all know there are lots of posts saying they don't like it and giving ideas on what can replace it. I assumed it was clear that i wasn't talking about those posts. do i need to go and quote the plenty of people that make a post saying "CCP is are douches, get rid of mechanic because i don't like new and different things!!!" ?

I'm sure you think every opinion in this thread is great and needed to be made right?....

anyway this is off topic, just getting tired of reading the 1,000,000,000th person posting "blaarrggg i r hate spew!!!!11!!one! " when they clearly have tried it once or twice if at all.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#347 - 2013-05-25 14:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Wasilah wrote:
omg people can we stop with the posts saying get rid of the can spew? they are going to put it in, get over it. offer some idea on how to make it better/more manageable rather than just crying about it. It's not so hard to get a decent number of cans solo unless your working with a stick for a hand and you control your ship by smashing your face into the keyboard/mouse.


They wanted feedback they got feedback, shockingly enough not all feedback is going to be positive. I know they put some time and effort into making it, but the general consensus from both threads, is that the mechanic is terrible. If the majority of people dislike the mechanic on such a small scale, imagine what the outcry will be when it goes live? This is what we want to avoid. However like you said, CCP will ignore it and stubbornly push it through. At least they can't say we didn't warn them, not like they care.

When it comes to making it more manageable, there's not much you can do. The overall concept is what people dislike, so you can't really polish a turd and act like it's not ****.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#348 - 2013-05-25 14:20:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Wasilah wrote:
Johan Toralen wrote:
Have you even read any thread regarding the loot spew? Ther's a ton of good ideas floating around for improvements.
And don't tell us not to complain about a feature that we genuinely dislike. We are all paying customers (or contribute greatly to CCP's income stream via plexing multiple accounts). It's our good right to voice our opinion. Not to mention that we do unpaid QA work for CCP. A paid QA would be considered useless and fired if he thinks everthing is great and doesn't criticize.


ok let me spell this out for you because you apparently didn't understand the implied context. I was talking about the people in this thread specifically. We all know there are lots of posts saying they don't like it and giving ideas on what can replace it. I assumed it was clear that i wasn't talking about those posts. do i need to go and quote the plenty of people that make a post saying "CCP is are douches, get rid of mechanic because i don't like new and different things!!!" ?

I'm sure you think every opinion in this thread is great and needed to be made right?....

anyway this is off topic, just getting tired of reading the 1,000,000,000th person posting "blaarrggg i r hate spew!!!!11!!one! " when they clearly have tried it once or twice if at all.


I'm curious to know what sort of metrics you're using to determine how many people have tried the new mechanic or not and how many times. It's interesting to me that you should be able to have that kind of information. As for myself, I have done roughly twenty sites. Unfortunately I get caught up in sightseeing and stop probing down sigs after a while.




One more thing. I'm not a mod, but I still want to take a moment and say:

If all you're going to do is flame about other peoples' feedback and how you're tired of reading it, stop doing it in this thread. If you want to rage and howl and make fun of people that badly, do it in General Discussion.

The rest of us are trying to be at least somewhat productive here and all you seem to be contributing, if it can be considered a contribution at all, is noise.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#349 - 2013-05-25 15:12:27 UTC
Degin'eth wrote:
I found a way to get the FULL LOOT from a site, but the total value is still VERY small. From a full loot in null sec (-0.3) the value was ~10 million. Incredibly small for the time it takes to jump through gates > scan the sites > find a site > hack it and loot it > transport the goods to a tradehub (especially hard in null). And this is on the test sever, where people are not actively searching for sites. So, the loot needs to be MUCH more valuable otherwise nobody will bother to do them.. waste of feature and expansion.

Anyway, here's how you can get the full loot.

1) Use a cargo scanner on the hacking structure
2) See what kind of items drop. If it only drops data module (data cores, incognito process, etc).
3) When the cans are dispersed only loot the Data cans. Everything else will be scraps.
4) Repeat for the next structure
5) If the next one has salvage items, only loot Scraps cans and so on.

So, the bottom line. You can do these sites solo, and get the full loot, but it's still worthless to do because of the value.

Considering someone ratting can sit still, press F1, and instantly get their ISK, exploration should reward AT LEAST 50-100 mil / site.


I don't think you need the cargo scan per se since the cans are named. On relic sites scoop material cans with priority, on data sites scoop data cans with priority. Don't know yet in which cans bpc's spawn tho.

Your method seems like a good plan to prioritice which containers to hack first tho, especialy in hostile space.

Agree with you about the loot reward. It needs to be in balance with risk. Profession sites in low sec/null need to pay better then 4/10's in hisec. bpc jackpots are a step in the right direction but it remains to be seen how common they are. For all we know they could be much rarer then 4/10 invuls.
Nicola Arman
Deep Maw Salvage
#350 - 2013-05-25 15:36:22 UTC
Seriously though, who thought loot scattering around was a good idea? Who was THAT guy? It's so stupid....

Is there an explanation anywhere as to why this even takes place?
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#351 - 2013-05-25 15:58:05 UTC
Nicola Arman wrote:
Seriously though, who thought loot scattering around was a good idea? Who was THAT guy? It's so stupid....

Is there an explanation anywhere as to why this even takes place?


Now that is an interesting question.

Also, who thought this would be good for exploration when logically and historically exploration was done by people that are methodical and deliberate in their actions. LOL imagine opening a tomb and the contents came flying out!

The entire spew mechanic seems so counter intuitive to the nature of exploration but fully inline with ship destruction.

Oh well. I guess we'll have to suck it up. I just feel badly for people that play on laptops with the mouse trap pad thingy. I guess they will have to buy a mouse.

Hydrostatic Podcast First class listening of all things EVE

Check out the Eve-Prosper show for your market updates!
Nicola Arman
Deep Maw Salvage
#352 - 2013-05-25 16:06:51 UTC
Why implement a feature that isn't enjoyable at all and that makes no sense? This baffles me..

Wasilah
Little Red X
#353 - 2013-05-25 16:09:34 UTC
Quote:
One more thing. I'm not a mod, but I still want to take a moment and say:

If all you're going to do is flame about other peoples' feedback and how you're tired of reading it, stop doing it in this thread. If you want to rage and howl and make fun of people that badly, do it in General Discussion.

The rest of us are trying to be at least somewhat productive here and all you seem to be contributing, if it can be considered a contribution at all, is noise.



i will let this slide because i know you would have to had read several pages past to see all the input I have been giving but all those posts get drowned out by the type of posts i was originally talking about, whether or not you wanna pretend this thread isn't filled with idiotic posts. speaking of which...

Quote:
Seriously though, who thought loot scattering around was a good idea? Who was THAT guy? It's so stupid....

Is there an explanation anywhere as to why this even takes place?


this is exactly what i am talking about. the dev's answered this around page 10ish i think it was. they want something new that can encourage people to work with others. and before you go on to complain about how it won't encourage people to work together i would go back and look at just the dev responses in this thread, it will give you an idea of what they are aiming for.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#354 - 2013-05-25 16:46:15 UTC
Wasilah wrote:
this is exactly what i am talking about. the dev's answered this around page 10ish i think it was. they want something new that can encourage people to work with others. and before you go on to complain about how it won't encourage people to work together i would go back and look at just the dev responses in this thread, it will give you an idea of what they are aiming for.


Don't take a dev's word for it: go and find out just how much fun it is to be the extra person(s) in a hacking site waiting for your friend to probe something down, then waiting for your friend to hack the container, then madly scrambling to collect spew containers.

So before you refer people to the devs statements about how this mechanic is intended to encourage cooperative play, go and play it cooperatively with your friends and see what your opinion of the mechanic is like after you've been your friends helper.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#355 - 2013-05-25 16:46:22 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:


Oh well. I guess we'll have to suck it up. I just feel badly for people that play on laptops with the mouse trap pad thingy. I guess they will have to buy a mouse.



It's maddening! Obviously during the design phase no one took even a minute to think about how this would work for anyone who's not sitting at a desk with a mouse.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#356 - 2013-05-25 16:59:14 UTC
Manssell wrote:
It's maddening! Obviously during the design phase no one took even a minute to think about how this would work for anyone who's not sitting at a desk with a mouse.


Not to mention those of us who play drunk or are just possessed of very poor mousing skills, and thus couldn't click on a moving fly poo to save our lives.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#357 - 2013-05-25 17:10:56 UTC
These damn hit boxes make it impossible to collect any cans, I am sitting a nice 5k away from the hacking container and when I go to try to collect and of the piñata that comes out I move as a whopping 19m/s because I keep "colliding" with the container.
It is beyond frustrating.

The loot piñata needs to go also, I tried to collect what has been regarded as the "valuable" containers and still got nothing but useless junk.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nicola Arman
Deep Maw Salvage
#358 - 2013-05-25 17:34:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicola Arman
Mara Rinn wrote:
Wasilah wrote:
this is exactly what i am talking about. the dev's answered this around page 10ish i think it was. they want something new that can encourage people to work with others. and before you go on to complain about how it won't encourage people to work together i would go back and look at just the dev responses in this thread, it will give you an idea of what they are aiming for.


Don't take a dev's word for it: go and find out just how much fun it is to be the extra person(s) in a hacking site waiting for your friend to probe something down, then waiting for your friend to hack the container, then madly scrambling to collect spew containers.

So before you refer people to the devs statements about how this mechanic is intended to encourage cooperative play, go and play it cooperatively with your friends and see what your opinion of the mechanic is like after you've been your friends helper.


It's not fun. The spewing containers are not fun. Not a reward for succesfully hacking a computer database.. .

I actively partake in exploration sites. I'm excited about the hacking game but what is the deal with the piñata??

They want cooperative play? It's going to be easier to scan these sites. Gankers will intrude much easier. You'll bring a friend as a bodyguard if the drops are worth it. But where's the sense in chasing cans AFTER hacking the site properly and cracking the code?

Dumb...
Wasilah
Little Red X
#359 - 2013-05-25 17:45:28 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Don't take a dev's word for it: go and find out just how much fun it is to be the extra person(s) in a hacking site waiting for your friend to probe something down, then waiting for your friend to hack the container, then madly scrambling to collect spew containers.

So before you refer people to the devs statements about how this mechanic is intended to encourage cooperative play, go and play it cooperatively with your friends and see what your opinion of the mechanic is like after you've been your friends helper.


and go read my posts about it. i've done it both solo and with a friend in a gnosis. I didn't ever say i agreed with the idea or that i like it, just it is what it is and they've made it clear the can spew is going to stay although the specifics of the can spew might change (number of cans, speed of cans etc.).

we both went into it knowing there wouldn't be much for the second person to do so we planned accordingly. i would call him in once i was about to win/lose the hacking game. they don't have to just sit there staring at the screen, twirling their thumbs waiting for you to finish the mini-game, it's not like it's a shock when the game will end afterall...

there's a thousand ways you can make it more exciting for someone helping you do the sites, them sitting there watching you float in space has to be the absolutely most boring and least involved way you could do it.

- have them put a probe launcher on and go scan ahead while you hack the sites, it's not like you can't hold the mini-game while they run a jump or two back to you for the cans or to kill the cruiser that spawned.

- if they can't probe out sites have them run the belts, that takes almost as much thought as sitting there staring at you and adds a little extra isk in their pocket with almost no added risk.

shall i spell out more ways they can keep busy cause i have plenty. they call eve a sandbox for a reason, and it's not to only look for the cat turds hidden in the sand.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#360 - 2013-05-25 18:02:14 UTC
The loot spew mechanic and the hacking minigame isn't there for people who enjoy the current pve against NPCs. They're trying to reach out to the people who dislike combat sites (which is what the old exploration sites were, by the way). Different strokes for different folks.

As someone who dislikes the current system, I think the new mechanics are interesting, although I wish that the sites were more rewarding.