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Try our new hacking/archaeology sites!

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Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
#261 - 2013-05-24 10:54:46 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
How does the lack of rats interact with players trying to hunt people doing exploration?

As far as I can tell, while exploring, when someone warps into your site you just instantly cloak up and run a mwd pulse since there are no rats to lock you.

Apart from running into a gatecamp, what risk is there in doing exploration, particularly since a t1 fit t1 frigate can now run sites just as well as a 4 billion isk bear tengu?


Dont worry. There is no risk. I won't be standing cloaked behind the structure, waiting for you to finish playing the minigame and gathering all the cans. And I won't blow you up afterwards to take your loot. Pirate
Itis Zhellin
#262 - 2013-05-24 11:26:16 UTC
Freyya wrote:

Fill the loot tables with items used in manufacturing or T3 production or something. Low volume, low value items but more usefull. I'm still strugling to see where the actual exploration is at since i'm not really exploring anything.
In a perfect world i'd love to see escalations coming from arch or hacking. Loot containers containing logs of travelers about strange places leading to new discoveries. Get sent all across the universe (not too much ofcourse, damn those nullbear camps P) and making mince meat of puzzle pieces explaining lore about the old races or something.

Loot from NPC's used to contain (or still do, can't tell) logs of events and systems where you could find something. Anything along those lines would make exploration feel like actual exploration. The only exploring we're doing right now is check the sensor overlay of every system to see if there's something to be hacked.

This! Looting these sites is maybe the most frustrating thing I ever done in a game. Clicking on those small containers is just nerve wrecking. And all this just to find some trash that someone dumped it into these sites. As an archaeologist/explorer I would love to find some old relics, clues about a hidden treasure, old alien civilization, stuff about the history of EVE. Something that I can bring back to my pos or station for further investigation and where I can attempt to decrypt/hack it. And when I manage to do that I'm sent into an epic quest to discover something that might change the history or.. fill my hungry wallet. As it is now, I don't see any major improvement on exploration, mostly a pale facelift. Scan, warp in, clickfest, done.

I also found a lot of small arms in these containers, no custom officers had anything against except those from Jita. And they opened a communication channel while I was jumping into Jita.. so I got stuck into an endless jump animation until I agreed to drop the crap. Wonder what could happen if I refused to do so.

Doing exploration in a Myrmidon is not different from by doing it in a Helios or Buzzard. :|
Xer Jin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#263 - 2013-05-24 11:32:11 UTC
i warped in to some wh data sites earlier today and found that the dust clouds crushed my frame rate down to 3-4 fps this needs to be fixed or put an option to turn them off there is no way i would be able to grab a spew can lick this effectively preventing me from doing any exploration in a site that has these dust clouds it was a digital frontier nexus
Xer Jin
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#264 - 2013-05-24 11:33:35 UTC
can you put the spew can on the overview plz there are too small and hard to click on
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#265 - 2013-05-24 11:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Toralen
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco, we could go one of two ways, distinguish Archaeology more from Hacking again so they are both unique or fold everything into Hacking. Hacking has more applicability as a transferable skill into more areas of EVE so we'll see as we broach where things are going to go more long term from here.


This is inspired by Freyyas post:

To make the new sites actualy about exploration and explorers working as a group if they want to: For data sites create 99 unique data discs. One of each spawns in every site with a chance to grab it. 33 in hisec, 33 in low sec, 33 in nullsec to involve explorers in all parts of the game. The discs are not traded on the market but players can trade them among each other or on contracts. Extra source of income for those who don't care, collectors items for thoese who just collect and don't mind exploration.
When a player has collected all 99 an expedition pops up in his journal and the discs disappear from the inventory (so he can't create unlimited expeditions). This expedition comes in multiple stages which lead around the Eve universe. Each stage has more valuable loot then your average exploration sites. But the expedition can end on any stage. To reach the final one is a very rare occurence. But the reward is immense. A unique item for the explorer and a piece of lore revealed about a new technology (could be a mod or ship that will make it into one of the next patches or expansions). This is so rare that it will make Eve news and everybod can read about the name of the explorer. Say this should happen once a year. After that a new cycle begins with new data discs.

The same idea can apply to the archeology sites, except players will find ship logs and in the final expedition the reward is a unique artifact from old times and a piece of lore from Eve's past is revealed to the world.
marVLs
#266 - 2013-05-24 11:54:53 UTC
So i make Relic and Data sites and:


  • mini game is ok and easy, tbh it's a little dump and only about clicking but it's ok for me

  • containers catching is terrible and frustrating, nothing more need to say, it's bad idea, change itAttention

  • loot value is bad


Overall in this state im sure i won't do those sites nowhere, especially in LS...
Space Wanderer
#267 - 2013-05-24 11:56:59 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco, we could go one of two ways, distinguish Archaeology more from Hacking again so they are both unique or fold everything into Hacking. Hacking has more applicability as a transferable skill into more areas of EVE so we'll see as we broach where things are going to go more long term from here.


I hope you guys will go the way to distinguish more the two professions, especially considering that "exploration" entails also looking in ancient stuff. We have all those sleeper, talocan, yun-jang, and another-one-i-dont-remember, which would be more justifid by archeology.

On the other hand, i realize it's going to be a lot of work, so I don't mind if you guys want to first iterate and polish one system (hacking), before working on the other one.

Just don't kill systems and professions, expand on them, even though it might take time.
CCP Bayesian
#268 - 2013-05-24 12:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Bayesian
Johan Toralen, these sorts of updates would be great but the main problem is that it takes one player doing it one time to post the results and its no longer exploration. Either that or there needs to be a massive amount of content generated. Now we could procedurally generate that but again there are limits particularly if we want to incorporate EVE lore. Either way other players tend to break systems down very quickly and tell you how they work which is why the current 'Exploration' is a reasonably mundane activity lots of people engage in and doesn't actually feel like exploration. A system as you describe would be broken down that way very, very quickly. Which is not to say we shouldn't seed lore content into space, it's just not a very sustainable gameplay system for exploration.

Exploration essentially has to involve going into the unknown and making it known whilst having adventures. This can only really happen if the universe is reasonably dynamic and more unpredictable. Probably the best way of doing that is giving players the tools to shape the universe and making the universe itself more dynamic. That way exploration isn't some content you chew through but a continuous use of tools in the Universe to understand it in order to do something meaningful.

Essentially if any player from a completely new character through to a ten year vet can have perfect information about the Universe and it's contents true exploration is never going to exist. That way exploration to a vet is understanding the dynamics of the universe. Whereas almost everything feels like exploration to the new player, which is the case at the moment really if they don't look at all the guides etc.

That's my take on it anyway.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#269 - 2013-05-24 12:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
CCP Bayesian wrote:
(...)
This is the first thing I want to put in post-release as not only does it make things much more interesting, it adds in a new way for hacking to generate income and the current design goes against our no closed systems design principle.

(...)

This is a start, not the end. :)


Any other comment about this method ? For me, releasing an unfinished feature and improving it a few weeks later should be for the test-server only. We are not talking about a fix or something that has a high priority, we are talking about a rewamp of something functional (btw there were so many other things to rewamp first... *ahem* POSes *cough* *cough*).

Also, I'm still waiting for this new version of Planetary Interaction... Oh wait, we already know what happens to unfinished-but-somehow-stable features in Eve.

The probabilities to see an interesting minigame post Odyssey 1.0 are thus extremely low. (But of course CCP Bayesian's vision sounds promising)

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Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#270 - 2013-05-24 12:21:06 UTC
CCP Bayesian how about a toned down version at least along the lines of combat site escalation? Like players can find artifact puzzles or data discs in nodes of the minigame. They are not tradable, could just be a cryptic message in the journal. Say once player stumpled upon 5 that belong together he's rewarded with an expedition to a system that he never visited before. (or random system should a player actualy have visited each and every k-space system).
This should be much easier to implement but still provide some sense of exploration.
CCP Bayesian
#271 - 2013-05-24 12:32:07 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Any other comment about this method ? For me, releasing an unfinished feature and improving it a few weeks later should be for the test-server only. We are not talking about a fix or something that has a high priority, we are talking about a rewamp of something functional (btw there were so many other things to rewamp first... *ahem* POSes *cough* *cough*).

Also, I'm still waiting for this new version of Planetary Interaction... Oh wait, we already know what happens to unfinished-but-somehow-stable features in Eve.

The probabilities to see an interesting minigame post Odyssey 1.0 are thus extremely low.


Based on past performance I can see why people are skeptical that we will continue to improve features immediately post-release. Planetary Interaction is a good example of a feature that could really do with some more depth added to it. However if people say "why aren't you revamping system X instead" then we always be releasing and abandoning things. Once something is out the best time to improve it is immediately afterwards.

To answer the "unfinished feature" point. We aren't releasing anything unfinished. We're releasing what we consider the minimum amount to consider the feature complete. That doesn't mean we've not got ideas that ended up on the cutting room floor because that's the nature of the developing any project that needs to fit within a set timeline. It also doesn't mean we are satisfied with the current state of things. It means as you note that the feature is functional and goes towards what we would ultimately like to achieve. It also lets us see how things fit in and interact with the live universe which is inherently different to any test server. Particularly when considering features that rely much more on player interaction. Improving iteratively is just sensible from this point of view in terms of validating what we are doing.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
CCP Bayesian
#272 - 2013-05-24 12:37:14 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
CCP Bayesian how about a toned down version at least along the lines of combat site escalation? Like players can find artifact puzzles or data discs in nodes of the minigame. They are not tradable, could just be a cryptic message in the journal. Say once player stumpled upon 5 that belong together he's rewarded with an expedition to a system that he never visited before. (or random system should a player actualy have visited each and every k-space system).
This should be much easier to implement but still provide some sense of exploration.


I definitely think some sort of mechanic that lead players around the universe would be good. There have been players in the past who have made it a goal to visit everything in the Universe. The question is whether doing that through collectables is actually exploration or just forcing people that are 'collectors' to go exploring. There is a difference between wanting to find new stuff but not knowing what that would be and wanting to get things you know exist.

Anyway, we're derailing the feedback thread so maybe we could shift this into a new thread in the Features & Ideas forum.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2013-05-24 12:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
CCP Bayesian wrote:


Exploration essentially has to involve going into the unknown and making it known whilst having adventures. This can only really happen if the universe is reasonably dynamic and more unpredictable..


Exploration is now, enter system, all content delivered straight to he player with the new overview scanner that happens no matter what the player wants.... Launch a super probe, get 100% result in 4 or 5 moves, 2 or 3 if highly skilled, go play tablet orientated mini game that will have limitations and be know entity within a week and click on spew cans, spew being a slang word for Vomit, the only risk being your frigate will be attacked by a rat if you fail, a rat that 2 drones can handle.


So how do you equate that with "Exploration essentially has to involve going into the unknown and making it known"....

Old system, everything hidden apart from DED 1 and 2´s for the rookies and low skilled (even older system was warp to celestial and do 4AU on-board scan, that was exploration in its truest sense) so you had to EXPLORE, that is, make a decision to gain skills, launch probes and search in a ship that had to be capable of handling whatever you found and wanted to exploit.

So i´m just calling out Bullsh!t, there are no professions in eve, its a sandbox you provide opportunities, we make the decision what path, no hand holding, no molly coddling, no sops to stupidity, being harsh is EvE.

If CCP want to go the path of money over all else please be honest and stop the bullshit, eve´s potential is limitless, and its life span long, but not if you keep coming up with half baked ideas that you never really deliver on because you got distracted by the next shiny object you played with at home. All you will attract is casual players for a few months and no longer term security apart from those that have invested time, effort and made a social sphere in game that keeps them playing. (not forgetting those who will do over all the newer players who will never understand the mentality behind lots of EvE players

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
CCP Bayesian
#274 - 2013-05-24 12:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Bayesian
Brainless Bimbo, you seem to have not noticed I said this in the very same post:

"'Exploration' is a reasonably mundane activity lots of people engage in and doesn't actually feel like exploration."

We have a system of limited content that is called Exploration. That does not mean it in anyway supports actual exploration which to me means actually exploring the Universe not visiting sites to do a known action in them. We've made that system much more dynamic than it was by adding in the ability to actually hack the sites, a game feature that could easily be rolled out elsewhere so it's less limited to just this static content.

Anyway as said previously please take this discussion to the Feature & Ideas forum so we don't mess up the feedback thread with future speculation on what actual exploration could be.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#275 - 2013-05-24 13:07:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Toralen
A universe of opportunity to claim

EVE Online's nineteenth free expansion, Odyssey, offers new tools for exploring the stars, challenges you to breach the unknown for adventure and rewards, and to face what lies on the other side. A re-imagined scanning system, intuitive navigation and new exploration modules will aid you as you search the heavens for your next conquest. Some will encounter sites never discovered before.

There is now more among the stars, enticing even the most experienced veterans to explore.

Edit:

I opened a thread in the ideas forum to discuss how to improve exploration:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=239418
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#276 - 2013-05-24 13:23:00 UTC
it is interesting to know how that "spew containers" mechanic was born and why dev team thinks it is good/needed here in exploration. somewhere this mechanic was mentioned as abandoned mining mechanic prototype. then why you think - its bad for mining (it would make bots live harder) but good for exploration?

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#277 - 2013-05-24 13:25:35 UTC
Emuar wrote:
it is interesting to know how that "spew containers" mechanic was born and why dev team thinks it is good/needed here in exploration. somewhere this mechanic was mentioned as abandoned mining mechanic prototype. then why you think - its bad for mining (it would make bots live harder) but good for exploration?


Its the same mechanic used in the X series of games for roid mining, probably thought it might be seen as stealing in that context

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#278 - 2013-05-24 13:30:45 UTC
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Emuar wrote:
it is interesting to know how that "spew containers" mechanic was born and why dev team thinks it is good/needed here in exploration. somewhere this mechanic was mentioned as abandoned mining mechanic prototype. then why you think - its bad for mining (it would make bots live harder) but good for exploration?


Its the same mechanic used in the X series of games for roid mining, probably thought it might be seen as stealing in that context


still interesting why CCP implementing it as exploration feature

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#279 - 2013-05-24 14:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
How does the lack of rats interact with players trying to hunt people doing exploration?

As far as I can tell, while exploring, when someone warps into your site you just instantly cloak up and run a mwd pulse since there are no rats to lock you.

Apart from running into a gatecamp, what risk is there in doing exploration, particularly since a t1 fit t1 frigate can now run sites just as well as a 4 billion isk bear tengu?


Dont worry. There is no risk. I won't be standing cloaked behind the structure, waiting for you to finish playing the minigame and gathering all the cans. And I won't blow you up afterwards to take your loot. Pirate


Good luck with that, since a bomber will straight up die to a properly fit probing frigate, black ops has bad scan res for locking a frigate before it can cloak, and everything else has a lengthy recalibration time.

Also, lets say you blow up my probing frigate. Congratulations on killing a t1 frigate?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#280 - 2013-05-24 14:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
If you're going to quote me, please do so completely. I didn't say I agree it's easy. I said that it's reasonably easy. Specifically, I said it balances well between skill requirements and reasonable ease.

As for my window settings.. Windows are R/G/B @ 0 with Transparency @ 145 and Background is R/G/B @ 11 with Transparency at 210. Given that the Background isn't very transparent (I use unpinned windows to block out the sun sometimes) I'm going to say that the hacking game probably uses the Window settings for the main area rather than the Background settings.

I got some Decryptors from a hacking site. I assume they were in "Data" canisters, but I wasn't really paying attention to the names so much as I was zoomed out a ways trying to analyze the general movement of the mini-container cloud and move along with it.

Missioning and combat in general are outside the scope of the overall discussion, but I will say that the results are considerably less randomly-generated and overwhelmingly more player-controlled than the current hacking/analyzing on TQ.