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I would buy a PLEX if I could sell it for 2 billion ISK. How about you?

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Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#121 - 2013-05-20 21:16:12 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

Doesn't mean they do.

Hell, they could turn off the server if they wanted. Doesn't mean they do just because they can.

There's a certain level of trust involved when you give someone your money to play with their toys.


I don't understand this; are you saying that you trust CCP to do something that they never said they were doing? Every so often you see adds for "Player driven economy" or whatever, that doesn't mean it isn't regulated. There are very few totally unregulated economies in the world, and none as big as the Eve economy to my knowledge.

Money, including ISK, is an entirely contrived idea that only has value because everyone accepts it. In the U.S. it is the law that you accept it, and people that don't or those that try and issue competing currency end up in prison. The point is that money must be managed as there really is no absolute value to it. All economies are like this, including Eve's.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-05-20 21:19:24 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

Money, including ISK, is an entirely contrived idea that only has value because everyone accepts it. In the U.S. it is the law that you accept it, and people that don't or those that try and issue competing currency end up in prison. The point is that money must be managed as there really is no absolute value to it. All economies are like this, including Eve's.



The word you're looking for is "fiat currency," and i'm not sure it's applicable to isk unless you mean to pretend that RMT has never happened.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2013-05-20 21:20:38 UTC
OfBalance wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

Money, including ISK, is an entirely contrived idea that only has value because everyone accepts it. In the U.S. it is the law that you accept it, and people that don't or those that try and issue competing currency end up in prison. The point is that money must be managed as there really is no absolute value to it. All economies are like this, including Eve's.



The word you're looking for is "fiat currency," and i'm not sure it's applicable to isk unless you mean to pretend that RMT has never happened.


I'm not planning on buying a Fiat Straight

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#124 - 2013-05-20 21:22:20 UTC
Interesting question. I'm one of those people that does not buy plex because earning my isk in-game is one of the personal 'challenges' I enjoy. That being said, I'm not against it, nor do I believe it is cheating. So I guess I 'would' buy it even at going prices, but I choose not to. Is there a price that would essentially cause me to change my playstyle? I suppose, but I honestly can't figure out what that number would have to be. I suspect it would not be lower than your 2 billion. Maybe 5?

No good deed goes unpunished
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#125 - 2013-05-20 21:23:49 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
The thread Andy was referencing started because a kid came to help chat and explained how his parents were going to be very angry because he traded his gifted PLEX for nothing in a station trade scam. I'm all for scams, but neither this kid nor his parents knew how to handle a PLEX in game. I think people like that should have a safe option to use real money to buy ISK just so they buy more again!


They already have the safe option: use the market, not station trades.

If people are going to be greedy and go for the station trade scam, the "safe option" that you are considering of buying ISK directly from CCP will only move their greedy mistakes one step down the line: they'll go station trading for those half price navy cruisers. Then you'll be asking for the "safe option" of buying the cruisers directly from CCP. Not going to happen.

The "safe option" is to encourage people to use the market and pay a fair price rather than being greedy and going for that offer that is too good to be true.

Greedy people will keep getting their hands burned regardless of how many interlocks, safety catches and warning signs you put on things. This is the nature of people: build a foolproof system, nature provides a bigger fool.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#126 - 2013-05-20 21:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Murk Paradox wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
TL/DR Cost of PLEX will go down for people PLEXing their accounts if CCP includes some goods with the purchase of a PLEX.

Cost in regards to isk as the method of payment? Yes, the value of the isk will go down with the prices of plex.

The value of ISK wouldn't go down, but the value of the bundled items and the components required in their construction would.

Anyways, Corey, let me put things into perspective for you to help answer the OP through my viewpoint. I'm an unemployed college grad who spends his time going to interviews, taking care of my demented grandmother, and ship toasting on these forums. I have very little disposable income.

What I do have, after playing for almost a decade, is an EVE net worth somewhere between 1-2 trillion ISK. So, now more than ever, I'm required to PLEX my accounts if I want to play (although I'm thinking of re-subbing a really old account just out of tradition, and because I perceive CCP as making a few correct moves, such as tags4sec). Yet if PLEXes rose to 2 billion a piece, I'd probably stop playing, since I can't be assed to grind enough money every month to keep a few accounts going, and would rather quickly run out of cash and liquid assets as well. Hell, I haven't touched pve content since 2006, and am breaking even/making a small profit just from pvp alone. In a few months/years, I'd have to start selling critical assets just to keep playing. Now, if that's my response to such a situation, consider what a person who doesn't have this degree of wealth, or my experience with the game, would do.

I'm not the only jobless EVE player around. There would be an exodus of people, and you'd hardly be able to replace them with enough wall-street types who can drop a Benjamin on game bucks every week. It would be catastrophic.

Now, all of this assumes that the value of ISK wouldn't decrease with an increase in the price of PLEXes (that is, a 2-billion-ISK PLEX in the future would be equivalent to a 2-billion-ISK PLEX today, and not a 500-million-ISK PLEX today).

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#127 - 2013-05-20 21:32:28 UTC
Oh and just for the record, I do agree that CCP probably manipulates the market in some ways. They'd be crazy not to skim some extra cash, since there are literally no oversight mechanisms that could expose their actions. They could very well be buying a few hundred PLEXes every month with faked characters to fund Hilmar's premium Hakarl habit.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#128 - 2013-05-20 22:13:17 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
TL/DR Cost of PLEX will go down for people PLEXing their accounts if CCP includes some goods with the purchase of a PLEX.

Cost in regards to isk as the method of payment? Yes, the value of the isk will go down with the prices of plex.

The value of ISK wouldn't go down, but the value of the bundled items and the components required in their construction would.

.... (although I'm thinking of re-subbing a really old account just out of tradition, and because I perceive CCP as making a few correct moves, such as tags4sec). Yet if PLEXes rose to 2 billion a piece, I'd probably stop playing, since I can't be assed to grind enough money every month to keep a few accounts going, and would rather quickly run out of cash and liquid assets as well. Hell, I haven't touched pve content since 2006, and am breaking even/making a small profit just from pvp alone. ...
Now, all of this assumes that the value of ISK wouldn't decrease with an increase in the price of PLEXes (that is, a 2-billion-ISK PLEX in the future would be equivalent to a 2-billion-ISK PLEX today, and not a 500-million-ISK PLEX today).


I'm sure CCP can figure out how to add some value to PLEX for people that buy it with real money and at the same time keep the "grind time" for those PLEXing their accounts to the same level that it is now.

We have thrown out a few ideas here, but these are just ideas and options. The real question is whether people who buy PLEX out of game get enough value for it. I don't think they do, I think from a game standpoint by far the better option is to stay in game as much as possible and make ISK that way.

This thread has shifted to the hows of such a process, but the OP was truly about the why's.

Those players who stay in game for more than 40 hours a week have advantages that more casual players don't; better choices as far as timezones, more practice overall and more time to learn and talk about the game, and really very substantial in-game economic advantages like being able to better monitor the market and their sell orders . I think the model would be better if it was a bit more equal, or even a bit shifted to giving players who pay real money for the game the advantage.

There will still be kills and combat and mining and all the things that we do now. And the games of people PLEXing their accounts will only change in that they have a few more opponents who are at their same level of destructive awesomeness. That's my goal in all things, to get people to engage with one another, and I think this would help that proccess.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#129 - 2013-05-20 22:17:23 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I'm sure CCP can figure out how to add some value to PLEX for people that buy it with real money and at the same time keep the "grind time" for those PLEXing their accounts to the same level that it is now.

They can give people gold ship paints, or silly fruit hats for the character creator or something. Cosmetic stuff that doesn't mess with the economy, but gives "value." I'm not against that. Heck, I might buy a PLEX to get a fancy fruit hat. Or cat ears.

But I'd quit the game for good if it gave me a normal Megathron.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I think the model would be better if it was a bit more equal, or even a bit shifted to giving players who pay real money for the game the advantage.

All trolling aside, that's not a good idea, for obvious reasons.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Whim Aqayn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2013-05-20 22:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Whim Aqayn
No.


- Whim Aqayn
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#131 - 2013-05-20 22:43:30 UTC
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#132 - 2013-05-20 23:02:25 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I'm sure CCP can figure out how to add some value to PLEX for people that buy it with real money and at the same time keep the "grind time" for those PLEXing their accounts to the same level that it is now.

They can give people gold ship paints, or silly fruit hats for the character creator or something. Cosmetic stuff that doesn't mess with the economy, but gives "value." I'm not against that. Heck, I might buy a PLEX to get a fancy fruit hat. Or cat ears.

But I'd quit the game for good if it gave me a normal Megathron.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I think the model would be better if it was a bit more equal, or even a bit shifted to giving players who pay real money for the game the advantage.

All trolling aside, that's not a good idea, for obvious reasons.


Why? because you would leave if you didn't have an advantage? Eve is a game about competition and interaction with other players. That process is limited when relative power levels are too far apart. If CCP moves them closer together then there will be more interaction.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#133 - 2013-05-20 23:11:54 UTC
Holy ****!

7 pages and you're still going?

This is beyond completely ********, and I'm seriously considering this may just be an elaborate troll on the part of the OP.

But if there's one thing I've learned playing this game, it is to never underestimate peoples' stupidity.

So here goes...

OP, your idea is fundamentally flawed, self-serving, and not well-thought-out at all. PLEX prices are regulated by the ingame market. just like most items. You can tinfoil hat all you like about CCP's minor tweaks, but that's all they were, tweaks. CCP does not want direct control over these things, they just want to make sure it works properly. This philosophy is evident all across eve, if you look for it.

Your idea reminds me of George Carlin's take on the 'sanctity of life', you decided out of pure self-interest that you 'deserve' more.

Of course you want more for your $19.99. Doesn't everybody? If we all got more, what would be the value? Where does the difference come in?

This whole ******* attitude is what's wrong with the world today. "Wahhh, I want more for my money, more more more!" "That t-shirt is $15? **** that I'll get a (sweatshop-made) cheaper one at wal-mart!" Somebody is paying the difference; I wonder how people who make $100 a month working their fingers off feel about you not getting more ISK for your allowance money.


If CCP were to alter the price of plex in a substantial way, it would ripple throughout the entire economy, then you'd be back here on the forums crying about why you have to pay 500m for a battleship. Drop the entitlement, dude.


TL;DR

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#134 - 2013-05-20 23:11:57 UTC
No, I'd leave because this game would no longer be the experience I am looking for.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Obunagawe
#135 - 2013-05-21 00:05:41 UTC
Imagine if they made PLEX sellable back to CCP for, say, 50% what it costs to buy them in the first place.

We'd have people like Destiny Corrupted liquidating trillions into thousands of PLEX, price spiking to tens of billion pu, it would be GLORIOUS.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#136 - 2013-05-21 00:28:50 UTC
Obunagawe wrote:
Imagine if they made PLEX sellable back to CCP for, say, 50% what it costs to buy them in the first place.

We'd have people like Destiny Corrupted liquidating trillions into thousands of PLEX, price spiking to tens of billion pu, it would be GLORIOUS.

You don't need to have a PLEX buyback program in order to sell ISK for cash. How far you want to go depends entirely on your risk tolerance.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#137 - 2013-05-21 00:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
No. I'm not wasting ISK fast enough to feel the need of additional injections.

Also I guess most people won't buy PLEX for 2 billions atm (except for reselling).

edit: idea of PLEXes sellable back to CCP for 50% of price is extremely cool btw. Except for (or especially for) the part there CCP could face bills for hundreds of thousands and millions dollars.
Istyn
Freight Club
#138 - 2013-05-21 00:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Istyn
I had to stop liking Andski's posts so I didn't spam the crap out of him with notifications while reading this thread.

OP's replies had me facepalming and tearing my hair out.

Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Andski wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
As for the "premium" ships, yeah the "kick scream and whine" crowd spoke right up. But really CCP has been catering to them for far too long anyway. The game has places to go and things to do, can't hold back for a few poor sports.


Yeah it's time for CCP to give their core players the finger, simply because "the game has places to go and things to do." Just like Sony did with SWG!


That's not their core players, its a vocal minority that has managed to carve out a nitch by complaining about things that they don't like.

The core players are the ones who send CCP money to keep the servers up and the staff payed. If the forums are any indication that crowd is a lot more easy going. They seem to pay happily and spend some time looking around in Eve and having a good time challenging themselves against the hazards and complexities there.

Those are the people a game wants more of. And a shift in creating more in game value for those types of player will get more of them engaged with the game.


Confirming that internet spaceship riots, mass unsubs that resulted in 20% of CCP's workforce being laid off, internet spaceship politicians actually being summoned and flown from across the world for an emergency crisis meeting, is not a result of the actions of core players.

Not to mention your post where you blatantly show no understanding of the summer of rage and suggest that 'nobody really knows what happened in CCP's meetings' and that they might have secretly predicted the reaction to the suggestion of pay-to-win items (precisely why they would do this I cannot fathom for the life of me) for some ulterior conspiracy motive.

When the CEO of a company has to apologise to its customers as major shareholders are starting to freak out, do you really expect them to risk that again just to satisfy the price you want PLEX to be, or the value you want it to be with the mad free-ship bonus idea?

What sort of alternate lunaticville reality do you live in?
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#139 - 2013-05-21 00:47:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Eram Fidard wrote:
Holy ****!

7 pages and you're still going?

This is beyond completely ********, ...
OP, your idea is fundamentally flawed, self-serving, and not well-thought-out at all. PLEX prices are regulated by the ingame market. just like most items. You can tinfoil hat all you like about CCP's minor tweaks, but that's all they were, tweaks. CCP does not want direct control over these things, they just want to make sure it works properly. This philosophy is evident all across eve, if you look for it.... Drop the entitlement, dude.


My goals have always been to get more people in the same ring, playing the same game and competing with one another. There is a disparity in Eve between players who pay for the game with money and those who pay by playing. If the situation were reversed then I would be advocating for the full-time players.

I think that one of things that limits Eve as a great game and as a virtual world that can surpass the experience of real life is the "conservatism of the poor." Those players who will do anything to maintain their position because as weak as it is they have come to accept it.

Eve is a game; it doesn't feed you or clothe you or keep you warm, there is no reason to treat it with conservatism. Push it as far as it can possibly go and then look beyond. I for one want to see new things and have great adventures, and I think the way to get there is to let go of expectations and control.
Istyn
Freight Club
#140 - 2013-05-21 01:00:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Istyn
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Eve is a game; it doesn't feed you or clothe you or keep you warm, there is no reason to treat it with conservatism. Push it as far as it can possibly go and then look beyond. I for one want to see new things and have great adventures, and I think the way to get there is to let go of expectations and control.


You're correct, it doesn't feed or clothe the subscribers. It does, however, feed and clothe the staff at CCP, and (hopefully) result in dividends to CCP's shareholders. Businesses are naturally conservative because rocking the boat with your customers generally means they go elsewhere.

CCP already learnt rocking the boat with ideas that actually may have been tamer than some of yours is a terrible idea, as it lost them 40,000 accounts within a week or two, and made them look like arses in the gaming media as a new SOE.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/10/23/eve-evolved-the-human-casualties/5

Quote:
the sobering quote below comes courtesy of the insider at CCP, and I think it really highlights the human casualties of recent events:

"I had a grown man crying for an hour on Skype because he just got the keys to the apartment for which he put up a down-payment and a mortgage three days ago. We have colleagues with children, in despair. Many of us know full well that we too carry responsibility for where we are now; we should have spoken up and not stayed silent for so long. Those of us left will give it all we have, but we also realise that without players staying critical, there is not much we can do against management, which simply wants to pursue its own goals."


Your idea is bad. Deal with it.