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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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XavierVE
No Corporation for Old Spacemen
#161 - 2011-10-18 15:14:31 UTC
Quote:
Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.


And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec.
Dinta Zembo
Tea. Earl Grey. Cold.
#162 - 2011-10-18 15:15:51 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Dinta Zembo wrote:
So this means that if I'm the only person using a bunch of planets for PI, I will have to personally invest hundreds of millions of ISK in to buying 5 customs offices? Don't think so.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Someone else could set them up and you just use them and pay taxes?



I think it would take 5 years just to get the original investment out if I'm the only customer. Not a great business.

Seems like you killed some PI as well.
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2011-10-18 15:16:39 UTC
Hmm, I never accounted for different tax rates at different locations. Guess I'll have to update my Profit Calculator for sure now, but I don't have the time, at least for another month. On the other hand, it does already allow you to change the tax rates. Well anyway, how will the new tax system work?



Personally, I thought instead of having these custom offices, one would have a PI ship. Upon warping to a planet with your structures on it, it would warp you to some random low orbit instead of the planet's normal warp in point. Then items launched at the spaceport would be redirected to your ship and dock with it instead of going to a customs office. You'd also be able to launch stuff down to the planet from this ship. So it'd be like a mobile customs office. Ah, perhaps in the future.

Asteroid Timer: Know exactly when that roid depletes! PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them!
Jaggins
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2011-10-18 15:16:50 UTC
Kaminu wrote:
A good extension would be to set different taxes for different standings.
i.E.

Corp = 0%
Alliance = 2%
+10 = 5%
+5 = 10%
0 = no access
-5 = no access
-10 = no access

Why not selling the service to anyone that is willing to pay for it? If a player CO is placed in low sec why should the owner not earn more from player he dont know as from his friends?



This could really make NPC null and Lowsec PI interesting.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#165 - 2011-10-18 15:17:06 UTC
... ok, I'm confused.

Quote:
One point to note is that the CO is still operational while in reinforcement, so unless the aggressor sticks around for the entire time you'll just rep the office back up when they are gone. If this becomes a big problem, we have solutions to mitigate it.


Does this mean that if the office is in reinforced, it can get repped up to full shields even *during* reinforced mode, and then needs to be reinforced again?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#166 - 2011-10-18 15:17:06 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Dinta Zembo wrote:
So this means that if I'm the only person using a bunch of planets for PI, I will have to personally invest hundreds of millions of ISK in to buying 5 customs offices? Don't think so.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Someone else could set them up and you just use them and pay taxes?

LOL. I wonder who these mysterious strangers will be running around chucking up PCOs everywhere?
The best planets will get PCOs and the rest will just stop being used.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#167 - 2011-10-18 15:17:35 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
If I got this right, these structures will have a bit less EHP than small towers, and cost about 80m ISK to build and set up (including the BPC from a FW corp). There is basically zero risk going to one and trying to blow it up - even if you are alone in some small ship. It will just take a while.

I'm not sure this is particularly good. It invites "bored people" to just reinforce a few customs offices etc. when no one is around. It would likely be good to keep an eye on how that plays out. They might might need some kind of protection (make it possible to anchor POS batteries around it?)

Also, do customs offices continue to work while reinforced?


We will absolutely monitor this closely. Yes they continue to work while reinforced.

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison
Raziphan Rebular
Path of Dooppa
#168 - 2011-10-18 15:18:23 UTC
XavierVE wrote:
Quote:
Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.


And then CCP wonders why most players never leave high-sec.



Ya I'm just a guy and I'm not part of some alliance, just a small corporation but I do my PI in lowsec, it's not great to have the Devs tell me 'tough *****' go do PI in highsec. I'm taking the risk here shouldn't I get some sort of reward? Instead I'm getting shoved out of Lowsec so that larger corporations that have massive resources can control everything. PI was great because it was accessible to all, now it's just another resource for alliances to fight over.
muhuh Aihaken
MBlue alt
#169 - 2011-10-18 15:20:06 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
If I got this right, these structures will have a bit less EHP than small towers, and cost about 80m ISK to build and set up (including the BPC from a FW corp). There is basically zero risk going to one and trying to blow it up - even if you are alone in some small ship. It will just take a while.

I'm not sure this is particularly good. It invites "bored people" to just reinforce a few customs offices etc. when no one is around. It would likely be good to keep an eye on how that plays out. They might might need some kind of protection (make it possible to anchor POS batteries around it?)

Also, do customs offices continue to work while reinforced?


We will absolutely monitor this closely. Yes they continue to work while reinforced.


I guess these structures have no forcefield so that means a nyx fitted for max dps could reinforce one of these things (presuming 25% reinforcement) in about 10 mins.
Jake Centauri
Doomheim
#170 - 2011-10-18 15:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Centauri
I'm sure a lot of hisec POS owners will throw up their hands on this one. If there is a dramatic increase in PI material prices and POS fuels, why feed the tower in the first place? Just shut down the tower and run hisec PI for profit....
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#171 - 2011-10-18 15:23:40 UTC
@CCP Omen

Can you look at balancing the rocket delivery method? I haven't used it forever and I'm not in-game right now but if I remember right its pretty pathetic. It should be a viable option in some cases, such as planets that don't and probably won't get a CO and for smugglers. It'll also help during the transition period.

_ _
CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#172 - 2011-10-18 15:23:48 UTC
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
30mil for the first stage module, another 30 in parts to upgrade it to functionality. BPC cost 6k LP and 20mil from CONCORD LP store (incursion) or 3k LP and 10mil from factional warfare LP stores.

So, we’ll probably see 200mil for the first mods. After a month, it’s possible prices will drop to 100mil. We probably won’t see bottom dollar (~75mil) for at least 3-6 months. This doesn’t even begin to address the HUGE spike in PI material prices that we’ll see. The early speculation alone will spike prices to minimum 200% up to a month before release and final details are set in place. Towers are going to also see an incredible increase in price due to simple demand for the parts for the customs offices. Although they probably are not produced or consumed in high enough volumes for the price increase to be very noticeable at first. Simply fueling towers will also become more burdensome, especially in the early days of the release of the feature.

All mechanics aside, I don't see this as a positive change. There are just not enough benefits coming from the change for players as a whole. I will say that the small operator out in low-sec is faced with a decision of putting the mods out and risking large sums of isk or simply packing up and going back to mission running. I'm curious as to how much these 'small operators' are contributing to the supply of PI materials.

Inflation is also a concern. You're removing a consistent isk sink and introducing a 'one-time' sink in the cost of the BPCs. WIth the prices posted, I think you're overestimating how often these structures will be destroyed. The structure shooting game will be fun at first, but over time, I see this as a concern.

Essentially, for awhile, towers will see a rapid decline in usage or simply a higher cost of operation. Invasion of space will see a similar effect. I see those two things as a very good reason to consider further development of the feature. More benefits should be added to the process of PI, such as (mentioned several times in this thread alone) simplified PI management, tools that help ease the click-fest, and possibly an increase in PI yeild from all planets to help deal with the supply shock.


Let's agree to disagree, one comment though, Since highsec taxes are doubled, and highsec produce 50% of all PI goods that should help counter the inflation, if we have overestimated the kill ratio for the offices themselves.

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison
Chicken Pizza
One-man Armada
#173 - 2011-10-18 15:24:39 UTC
Yet another blob-able structure. Why not just make it a somewhat weaker structure that requires a subcapital fleet via, say, an acceleration gate or some other such method? I just can't see this as a feasible way to make PI more interesting. If anything, it will become more like playing SBU tag out in sov space. Who would want more of that?


I can see how this might have some synergy with DUST514, but since I wasn't really a big fan of the concept of DUST514 anyway, I don't really care.
CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#174 - 2011-10-18 15:25:01 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:

We will try and figure out how to avoid the blob incentive without making the experience of owning one, EVEN WORSE. It's a very delicate problem. The relative low value of most CO might be enough not to warrant assembling a blob.

Regards
Omen


this looks like it has a stupidly good passive tank: can that be nerfed some so that small gangs don't have most of their dps removed by shield regen?

The shield regen is extremly slow!

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison
Metis Laxon
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2011-10-18 15:25:02 UTC
Fantastic change :D Finally some more needed interactivity for PI
Tammarr
#176 - 2011-10-18 15:25:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tammarr
How will this work with aggression in lowsec?

I see militia corps, with the access to the bpcs dropping customs gadget on some planets.

Now imagine it happens, I would assume the bad boys go gcc.

As the office is coming out of reinforce time, the militia has gathered a defense.

The bad boys show up, they are not blinky/pirates by default.
If Militia fires first to try to lock down gates or keep the offending force from setting up on grid: Militia goes GCC.
GCC militia cant be remote repaired without getting huge FACTION standing hits, a signifcant disadvantage there.
(The Faction standing hit for remote repairing a pirate or GCC member of your corp or militia says: For assisting enemeis of your faction... meanwhile: If your in the militia, remote repairing A GCC/pirate out of the militia thats shooting a militia member: The remote repper gets no standing hit. Its screwed on backwards... completly: Its an often raised point about militia mechanics that needs to be fixed: If one guys in your fleet screws up and goes gcc, that easily spreads across the entire fleet going gcc with remote assistance etc: Resulting in massive standing hits for every pilot.)

Also ofc applies to regular corps/players that dont want to go gcc. You must wait for the bad boys to gcc.
Or they can just wait for you to bring shiny RR ships on grid to rep office shields up... and volley them, since you cant counter them setting up on grid without going gcc if they are not pirates.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#177 - 2011-10-18 15:26:07 UTC
Snowflake Tem wrote:
Also, WTF has the militia got to do with this transfer of faction control to the capsualeer community?

Not sure about other factions but buying custom office blueprints from say; Federation Customs or Amarr Trade Registry with loyalty points would make much more sense than grubbing LPs with the militia.


^^ This

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#178 - 2011-10-18 15:26:20 UTC
It seems to me that part of the goal of this change is to give small gangs more "targets of opportunity" that they can use to harass larger alliances. As such, can you tell me if the following option is on the table: Aside from just the "glory" of reinforcing one of these offices, do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both?

Your comment earlier indicates that you would still be able to withdraw materials even in reinforced mode, which means that any physical reward to taking one of these down is pretty minor, and that even the tactical or strategic reward would be very minor at best.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Arth Lawing
Penumbra Institute
#179 - 2011-10-18 15:27:36 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Sir HappyPants wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
Sir HappyPants wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:

=HP scpecification=
* Customs Office Gantry
** Shield: 10,000,000
** Armor: 500,000
** Structure: 300,000

* Customs Office
** Shield: 10,000,000
** Armor: 2,500,000
** Structure: 2,000,000

Regards
Omen


That would take a long time for a lone supercap pilot for anyone who may be wondering...

I doubt too many drive-by-POCO bimbing will happen with HP this high...


12 minutes to reinforce with a solo nyx is not "a long time".


12 minutes in space and potentially vulnerable, especially solo? Long enough to make some (most?) supercap owners think twice imo.

That said, with HP values that high, it'll be another thing that will "need" a blob.


We will try and figure out how to avoid the blob incentive without making the experience of owning one, EVEN WORSE. It's a very delicate problem. The relative low value of most CO might be enough not to warrant assembling a blob.

Regards
Omen


It's not that difficult to figure out, just have entry to the customs area through an acceleration gate to remove capitals.
Perhaps even the gate could have a toll depending on non-industrial ship class meaning that large attacking forces would be forced to pay their way in.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2011-10-18 15:27:42 UTC
Personally hate this idea.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of turning it over to players. I can see this as a very interesting mechanic. Now a low sec pirate corp can have a new income stream. wanna do PI in pirate infested area A? You will have to pay them to do so. Pirate corp B likes Pirate corp A's territory? They can take over and claim the planets as their own.

The BIG issue I have with the setup is no defenses. Yes I understand you want people to fight with ships, but the big issue is the global nature of the game.

Unless you are in a huge corp with players from all over the globe, you are likely going to have serious holes in your corp's playtime. A corp from a TZ other than yours can simply go in and trash a CO without repurcussion.

It seems dumb to make players have to invest effort and isk into a structure, and then have no way of defending it. At least with a POS I can make a choice. I can make a POS with lots of structures to make stuff, or I can make one with lots of defenses. One is more vulnerable but profitable, the other is less profitable but safer. But I can choose how I want to deter people from attacking my structure.

But these new CO's I will have to setup and just hope for the best?