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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Aphrodite Skripalle
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1761 - 2011-11-15 13:31:49 UTC
Liu Ellens wrote:
I was hoping to read about one feature: Make these custom offices be available for courier-contracts! But was highly disappointed...


And second: Do I read this right, these things are pretty much defenseless (apart from their 24 hour timer)? No guns, no... nothing? Sounds like perfect 'shoot here for practise' signs Ugh

(edit: might be though that I didn't catch the actual intention of this iteration)

^This.
I want guns in my systems.
Also this is a game for Teams, thats why we have corporations. Why i need to haul my stuff ? But if, i would like haul it for my team mates, too.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1762 - 2011-11-15 14:43:48 UTC
New Devblog is out HERE

I think I'm the first to post on this since the new devblog came out...

With that said, I have to say that this is a win for the eve community! And while not everything we asked for, it is a reasonable compromise, and one that I am happy to accept. (Though I still think P4 commodities need a bigger Command Center launch vehicle m3)

Imo - I think it's important that we praise CCP and Team Pi for what good they have done in this change to PCO feature, so that they know their efforts at listening to the community are worth while - and while some of us will argue to the bitter end that 'nothing' should be changed to herald in PCO's; that is neither realistic, nor rational.

/golf_clap to Team Pi for really trying to listen to us, while balancing development needs and practicalities!


o7

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions
#1763 - 2011-11-15 15:08:43 UTC
If you still don't understand the fundamental problems with the feature, I can only laugh/cry. I'm too exhausted to argue. I'm too exhausted to comment (almost). Your economy will implode (literally not figuratively). Inflation will be the bane of eve player's existence (as if it's not a problem already). Your user base will scream louder than at the release of the NeX store. When your subscriptions drop even further than they have for this ill thought out 'feature', you will (hopefully) think back to when I told you so. I will take no pleasure in it (just like I never do). And you will end up reimbursing anyone who bought anything related to this terrible feature as you revert the POCOs back to pre-winter expansion.

I'm done talking 'with' you about it. Implement this in it's current form EVEN AFTER YOUR 'CHANGES', and mark my words: "The masses will revolt.
Xerxes Ceasar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1764 - 2011-11-15 18:17:49 UTC
All I can say about this changes is WHY? it will only make POS fuel even more expensive, as it wasnt expensive enough as it is now. What?
Vorpaladin
Diplomacy Has Failed
#1765 - 2011-11-15 21:59:02 UTC
After reading the new dev blog, I'm glad to see that the customs offices won't simply disappear after the expansion. I'm still not happy with the whole concept for reasons covered on the previous 89 pages of this thread (lol!). The biggest systemic problem for the whole EVE community is going to be significant inflation for POS fuel, which means fewer POSes, which means less manufacturing in general, which means inflation raging through the whole economy. This equates to a nerf of all ISK-generating activities (sites, missions, etc.) since payouts will remain constant while the price of everything increases. That means players will over time have fewer ships and fewer assets in general, so players have fewer options in what they can do, which simply makes EVE less fun to play. It looks like CCP is going to cram this down our throats anyway, create a firestorm of protests and see a shrinking subscriber base. Again. And this boondoggle doesn't even generate income for CCP like the NEX boondoggle presumably will. Seems crazy to me.
Meldan Anstian
The Night Crew
#1766 - 2011-11-15 23:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Meldan Anstian
I followed this thread from day one and posted my thoughts and ideas along with many other players. I think CCP got lots of good thoughtful ideas and feedback.

Given all this feedback, essentially all CCP was able to do was change the way that CO's are removed from the game and added the ability to change tax rate by standing?

Are you kidding me? Seriously? Did you read the feedback from the people who play and care about this game?

Granted, both of the major changes were very much needed, but it's a far cry from what really is needed to make the original goals a positive thing within Eve. As it is, I think it's a not a positive change by any stretch of the imagination.

CCP - you wasted your time implementing this, and you wasted the time of all those who gave you honest thoughtful constructive feedback. I will never give you feedback again, as it is clearly a waste of time.

I probably will see how this thing settles out, not because I have any real hope that it will work well, but because it's only a couple weeks away.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1767 - 2011-11-16 00:25:06 UTC
Meldan Anstian wrote:
I followed this thread from day one and posted my thoughts and ideas along with many other players. I think CCP got lots of good thoughtful ideas and feedback.

Given all this feedback, essentially all CCP was able to do was change the way that CO's are removed from the game and added the ability to change tax rate by standing?

Are you kidding me? Seriously? Did you read the feedback from the people who play and care about this game?

Granted, both of the major changes were very much needed, but it's a far cry from what really is needed to make the original goals a positive thing within Eve. As it is, I think it's a not a positive change by any stretch of the imagination.

CCP - you wasted your time implementing this, and you wasted the time of all those who gave you honest thoughtful constructive feedback. I will never give you feedback again, as it is clearly a waste of time.

I probably will see how this thing settles out, not because I have any real hope that it will work well, but because it's only a couple weeks away.



If I might comment - where you might see a piece of coal in your PI stocking, I have to say I see a shiny piece of coal in mine... I got my wish for CO's not to be wiped, and gantry size to be reduced to fit in a crane!

Don't worry, just think in a million years that piece of coal might one day become a diamond?!

You just have to understand where CCP is coming from and then its easy to find the silver linings in this feature! Roll

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Nose ElGrande
Swarm Of Locusts
#1768 - 2011-11-16 02:41:21 UTC
Having reviewed the newly updated devblog:

1) Thank you for providing a response before the North Star arrived on the third day....

2) Thank you for allowing the players to determine where controlling PI tax is worth the POCO investment. If anything, this will incent folks to place POCOs and do their P2-P4 assemblies with no tax. This will also allow for deception if desired, so it is not so obvious where players *are* doing PI vs not. If ganking becomes an issue (by watching POCOs rather than Interbus stations), players can choose to replace Interbus stations at planets they do not use, so the 'odds' will be better for the planet they are using.

3) Thank you for revising the filters for taxation, this will be helpful. Also thanks for making transfer of POCO 'easy' ... there was no mention of what Corp Role would be created for this? What is the intent?


4) Ok, now the request ...

In the next two weeks, can you please provide a detailed commentary on what CCP will or will not do with the many suggestions provided on this thread. We would like to know what features will be implemented in future releases (not done now because of timing/complexity issues) and which will not ever be implemented (and why).

That would be helpful, and show that you have listened, considered the thoughts of the users, and have more reasons than just time for the decisions made.

Otherwise, good choices for now, I'm still hopeful for a Corporation-controlled device to have corp member accessible common Corporate Hanger so we can actually do PI as a corporation at the planet. I am patient.

Good Job.
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#1769 - 2011-11-16 10:54:09 UTC
Maybe the (already started) POS fuel price hikes will make highsec PI profitable... and with no hassle of POCOs. One more reason POCOs are a bad idea. Making highsec PI more profitable while increasing the complexity and difficulty of lowsec/nulsec/wh PI only means one thing. Fewer industrialists putting their shiny haulers at risk. That means less conflict, less things getting blown up, less fun for everyone.

Can we skip to the part where you undo this horrible change and save everyone the trouble? Also, if there really is some alleged way this will interact with DUST, can you tell us what this mystical secret is? Keep your DUST out of our EVE until it's released, please.

Cerulean Ice, Professor, E-UNI
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
#1770 - 2011-11-16 13:00:05 UTC
CCP PI related Devs take note: -Your CEO he has already had to carry out one humbling climb down apology for arrogantly driving blinkered in one direction with a pet idea; ( you obviously feel you are too important to have to worry about that ), which you are too proud of to change sensibly all from not listening to the disaffected player base.
I am sure neither you, ourselves nor him wish for another public fiasco resulting from the effects of the PI changes you are presenting. It would be humiliating in the least.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1771 - 2011-11-16 18:14:46 UTC
Max O'Deel wrote:
CCP PI related Devs take note: -Your CEO he has already had to carry out one humbling climb down apology for arrogantly driving blinkered in one direction with a pet idea; ( you obviously feel you are too important to have to worry about that ), which you are too proud of to change sensibly all from not listening to the disaffected player base.
I am sure neither you, ourselves nor him wish for another public fiasco resulting from the effects of the PI changes you are presenting. It would be humiliating in the least.
It may not be the PI development personnel who are driving this change, keep in mind.

CCP has been laying the groundwork for DUST over the past year and a half and this may simply be one more deliverable in their overall project plan no matter how they try to sell the changes to their existing customers.

CCP will do whatever they believe to be necessary to further their DUST 514 project, make no mistakes about it. And it is up to us if we want to continue to play along in the context of CCP's grand console title delivery plan.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Elvin Gizza
Gerek Ore And Moon Surveying
#1772 - 2011-11-18 05:46:25 UTC
Maybe this have answered, but what is gained from attacking the CO?
- It blows up, and then you install your own CO ?
- You take control of it, and have to repair it ?


CCP:
With the taxing in all low spacing being set to 100%, because that makes most sense, what do you think will happen to PI prices? or availability of POS fuels ?

Why do you hate POS's?
Zeronic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1773 - 2011-11-18 13:39:20 UTC
Elvin Gizza wrote:
Maybe this have answered, but what is gained from attacking the CO?
- It blows up, and then you install your own CO ?
- You take control of it, and have to repair it ?


CCP:
With the taxing in all low spacing being set to 100%, because that makes most sense, what do you think will happen to PI prices? or availability of POS fuels ?

Why do you hate POS's?



To me with the latest DevBlog, it just shows that either Team PI is either not looking at the bigger picture or they have the old case of CCP tunnel vision. Even with the changes it still not good enough, LP for an item that need to be put on almost every planet is not a very good plan at all. Plus how did Interbus get dragged in to this, I bet the RP Player are looking at that and go how does that work.

Again this isn't a bad idea but it only good on paper. TQ is a completely different story.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1774 - 2011-11-18 14:06:10 UTC
Moribund Topic

But for those that like to give CPR to corpses... please continue

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
#1775 - 2011-11-18 19:29:04 UTC
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
Max O'Deel wrote:
CCP PI related Devs take note: -Your CEO he has already had to carry out one humbling climb down apology for arrogantly driving blinkered in one direction with a pet idea; ( you obviously feel you are too important to have to worry about that ), which you are too proud of to change sensibly all from not listening to the disaffected player base.
I am sure neither you, ourselves nor him wish for another public fiasco resulting from the effects of the PI changes you are presenting. It would be humiliating in the least.
It may not be the PI development personnel who are driving this change, keep in mind.

CCP has been laying the groundwork for DUST over the past year and a half and this may simply be one more deliverable in their overall project plan no matter how they try to sell the changes to their existing customers.

CCP will do whatever they believe to be necessary to further their DUST 514 project, make no mistakes about it. And it is up to us if we want to continue to play along in the context of CCP's grand console title delivery plan.


Call me cynical if you like, your comments may be right, in some aspects, however whilst it may be their company project why shaft EVE player's too make it happen. If DUST is the cause of this crap then it should have been developed separately got themselves its own player base paying for it, then ask us all how they feel about integration aspects dont just do it at our expense.
or do you like paying for someone else’s game development.
uglybass
Spatial Idiocity Inc.
#1776 - 2011-11-19 11:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: uglybass
This hole concept is full of fail, It just shouts grief, grief, grief me.
low-sec should have left outside of this, because they will just become tax farming grounds to mega-blob nullsec alliances. they can field hundred super caps to clear out system and no low-sec group can defend that.

what about low-sec systems which are not-so-PI-intensive, say Im pretty much only one doing PI there. I need to do launches or set tax office for myself....great... and ofc some random bored group of bullies will blow that one up...
just because of lulz.

luckily high-sec has been left out of this...
I can imagine how "Lucky Luke - The Oklahoma Land Rush" would occur if high sec gets player owned PI Tax offices

I dont have much of an idea how this will benefith null either. Alliance living there will be the one collecting taxes... So basicly its the same thing that I take ISK from right pocket and put it to left pocket.
If you can ninja tax offices, null-sec alliances get more structure shooting. THE most enjoyable part of the game.

sorry, Omen I seriously think this concept needs couple more rounds of iteration...

My opinion considers the big picture, OFC there is variables here like PL, CVA and NPC-null that I didnt mention
Clama
Doomheim
#1777 - 2011-11-20 15:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Clama
Sisi looks amazing. I love the new transfer window.

You keep saying we can launch if we can’t use the POCO. To get the stuff in the command centre which has to be done via expedited transfer. Which has a cool down of 15mins.


[url]http://imgur.com/kBnW0[/url]

Please consider reducing this.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1778 - 2011-11-22 02:13:01 UTC
I still want to know how this will affect WHs. Due to the nature of WHs, you have to dedicate time if you want to destroy them (since WHs don't last longer than 24 hours). Currently on SiSi, WHs have Customs Offices owned by EVEOnline, and you cannot access them. Requiring WH people to grab Custom's offices isn't that big of a deal monetarily speaking, it just *limits* WH life. I know the original intent of WH life was to be more nomadic (example, change subsystems in a POS, meaning less ships to do all the roles), and there could have been changes added to do this, but they are going the other route.

Low sec PI should probably be owned by whomever owns the space (faction warfare, syndicate, etc), and NPC null-sec the same. As much as I'd want more places to fight besides gates, WHs, and pos's, there is no reason to fight here. An attacking force gains nothing by blowing up a CO (except to grief).
Elrinarie
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#1779 - 2011-11-24 08:19:21 UTC
Honestly think this is a terrible idea.

1) It will dramatically increase the costs of PI goods across the board (as if they aren't already too expensive)
2) It is poorly designed and is being rushed out from point of presentation to implementation
3) The tax system will take YEARS to recover the costs of the initial investment for the POCO.
4) while many people do PI for their corps, is a time consuming INDIVIDUAL task. Now you're making an individual task and forcing it into a corporate/alliance denial of income.



If you are doing it on an individual basis in low/null. You are looking at 1-2 months ROI for the initial setup costs per planet in this new system

If you are doing it in a corp/alliance. Your setup costs to tax ROI is going to take years.

essentially.. if all things go as expected.. POCO's will never see ROI
Feffri
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#1780 - 2011-11-25 09:01:40 UTC
this is so frustrating I can't believe they are actually implementing this... One thing i don't understand is what is the tax % taxing market value of the pi materials?