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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Meldan Anstian
The Night Crew
#1181 - 2011-10-21 05:57:00 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:


I was attempting to refocus away from the tarif percentage, and instead on the important factors:

First, processing commodities to higher levels will result in higher tariff revenues.

The second point was that the more colonies you have on planet, the greater quantity and frequency of export.

It is these two things that will generate a viable income from POCO's.



Ahh, I understand you now.

I agree that processing commodities to higher levels would result in higher revenues. So why not just ship low level commodities to a high sec production planet and pay only a 10% tax (both on import and export)? Based on the best numbers we have, it makes no sense to install a 80 mill ISK PCO and charge anything near a low 10% tax. So get it off planet in either raw material or more likely processed material form.

A few hundred posts in the thread ago, I calculated that it's about 6 times (from memory, exact number may be different) more expensive tax wise to export a unit of robotics, than it is to export all the processed materials to make a unit of robotics. So the obvious incentive is to import low level materials into the lowest tax planet around and manufacture higher level commodities, most likely in high sec.

More colonies on a planet does mean more income, until the planet is depleted of resources. Attracting PI to your planet is good , up to a point, and then your income is limited to the rate the resources are replenished on the planet.

According to those in WH's, it doesn't take many people to deplete a planet, less than 10, but I'm sure it would vary planet to planet.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1182 - 2011-10-21 06:46:43 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Will POCOs gives us kill-mails? it will be shown on killboards? ( Depending on the answer people will hunt them for fun or not )


Yes like POSs, POCOs generate kill mails.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
#1183 - 2011-10-21 07:00:45 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
We all know the prices will go up, the taxes will go up, the ability to get product out will go down, cost of control will go up, and the risk of ships will go up.
Prices up = good for PI guys, bad for pos guys and indy guys. Demand falls of course. Pos's are retired being unprofitable.
Taxes up = good for Control guys, bad for PI guys. There goes PI profit.
Product logistics = risky to non-existant, bad for PI guys. Barring any other problem, if product is stuck, it is worthless.
Cost of control/ships = high. Bad for PI. Even if the fight for PI is worth it (high prices), the taxes are low, and the logistics is free, the cost of losing ships and buying the PI control center easily and quickly removes all profitability.
Let alone the effect on demand for retired POS's with higher fuel prices and for other indy activities.

If CCP can limit the maximum tax rate, prevent PI logistics disruption, and increase the amount of product the colonies can process and extract, this might work OK. Increases the product per colony will actually allow people to care (more ISK) enough to fight over it while helping reduce product cost so that the infrastructure which uses it doesn't collapse. If CCP wants more fighting over PI, increase the 0.0 yield and processing ability while decreasing HS product yield. Don't do anything else.


Problem with that is that once you push profitability beyond a certain point the powerblocs come in and put their foot down. Again forcing small or specialized industrialists to either give up their independence or go out of business. Which again is already the defacto situation in null and thus little will change.

I really don't think it would help EVE however if powerblocks would start controlling lowsec in the sameway, that won't hurt just industrialists that will also hurt smaller more nomadic pirate entities who by their playstyle bring a unique flavour to lowsec.
Internet Knight
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#1184 - 2011-10-21 07:05:38 UTC
Some further thoughts:

Similar to how bounties are delayed up to 15 minutes, I think paid tariffs should be delayed until downtime. That should help remove using it to find free loot pinatas. If you're silly enough to use an enemy customs office near downtime and then log in after downtime, you pretty much deserve to be killed IMO because everyone knows downtime is a key nightmare for various tactics.

DON'T remove customs offices outside of highsec when this goes live. They should be owned by CONCORD (actually, the Secure Commerce Commission and NOT CONCORD - let's get our backstory correct here!!) until players take them over.

IF they are destroyable, then perhaps, like command centers, you should have a small customs office to start with and then pay to upgrade it if it's worth it. Small customs office that you can deploy and all but care about whether or not it gets blown up.

IF they are destroyable, then remove (just like other anchorable stuff) after X amount of time of non-use. I think the standard time is a little long in this case; if you're ignoring your PI for 2+ weeks, then you're obviously not interested in actually using the PI and should let it roll over to someone else. But the timing is something that can be worked out.

IF they are destroyable, there should be a new skill enabled by the CEO (similar to Corporation Management and Ethnic Relations, etc) which allows X number of customs offices per level. That should further help reduce spamming customs offices for free ISK and hoarding planets. Higher level skills with even more allowed customs offices can be entered with a requirement of also training up the corporation management skill tree. Since starbases aren't required for sovereignty any more, I think it's worth considering a similar skillset for those too, further preventing starbase spam in highsec. Both cases should have, in my opinion, charisma as primary Twisted


ALSO::
Consider this!!! I don't think ANYONE has brought it up!
Player X gathers resources on planet 1, exports to planet 2. Pays export tariff on planet 1, import tariff on planet 2.
Player X then produces tier 2 stuff on planet 2, exports to planet 3. Pays export tariff on planet 2, import tariff on planet 3.
Player X then produces tier 3 stuff on planet 3, exports to planet 4. Pays export tariff on planet 4, import tariff on planet 4.
Player X then produces tier 4 stuff on planet 4. Pays export tariff on planet 4.

At current NPC tariff levels of 5%, that's profitable (net 35% tariff, ouch... there's where production en mass comes in). But if you have corporations setting it to 100%, there's almost zero profit for anyone but the customs-owning corporation. I would say a maximum of 20% tariff. Any higher than that and you're reaching negative returns.
Meldan Anstian
The Night Crew
#1185 - 2011-10-21 07:18:03 UTC
Internet Knight wrote:


Consider this!!! I don't think ANYONE has brought it up!
Player X gathers resources on planet 1, exports to planet 2. Pays export tariff on planet 1, import tariff on planet 2.
Player X then produces tier 2 stuff on planet 2, exports to planet 3. Pays export tariff on planet 2, import tariff on planet 3.
Player X then produces tier 3 stuff on planet 3, exports to planet 4. Pays export tariff on planet 4, import tariff on planet 4.
Player X then produces tier 4 stuff on planet 4. Pays export tariff on planet 4.

At current NPC tariff levels of 5%, that's profitable (net 35% tariff, ouch... there's where production en mass comes in). But if you have corporations setting it to 100%, there's almost zero profit for anyone but the customs-owning corporation. I would say a maximum of 20% tariff. Any higher than that and you're reaching negative returns.


So 1 person would have 4 production planets?

Nah, 5 extraction planets and then 1 production planet. 1 production planet can consume the resources from multiple extraction planets pretty easily.

Pays export taxes on the 5 extraction planets, import on the production planet and then export on the production as well. Saves a ton of import/export taxes on the middle planets in your scenario.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1186 - 2011-10-21 07:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Plz for the love of god add a new PI skill for this.

One that limits the number of POCO just like the one that limits the number of plants that you can put comand centers on.


Out side of that all I have to say is omg glad I got out of trying to run POS and switched to just sucking the isk from thoughs that do.Big smile

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Anela Cistine
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1187 - 2011-10-21 07:36:01 UTC
Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:
Problem with that is that once you push profitability beyond a certain point the powerblocs come in and put their foot down. Again forcing small or specialized industrialists to either give up their independence or go out of business. Which again is already the defacto situation in null and thus little will change.

I really don't think it would help EVE however if powerblocks would start controlling lowsec in the sameway, that won't hurt just industrialists that will also hurt smaller more nomadic pirate entities who by their playstyle bring a unique flavour to lowsec.


Good news: power blocks don't care about PI. Even if it became much more profitable, the rank and file pvpers HATE shooting structures, and would not want to go clean out hundreds of undefended structures on a monthly basis so that their industrialists could make a little more money. Sometimes it is hard to get them to come out and reinforce nearby tech moons, never mind some lowsec planet customs office.


Money moons generate money directly for the corp or alliance. PI can't be done on a corp level, so it only generates profit for individuals. Allowing corps to tax PI will let them generate a little income from PI in their own territory, so they might care about defending their own POCOs. Destroying POCOs in NPC space won't generate any income for them, nor will it deny income to any important enemies, so there is no reason for alliance leaders to care about it at all.


NPC PI has no affect on block income. It has no strategic importance. And destroying POCOs will generate no tears, no rage in local, because most of the time there won't be any one there. High sec blue ice is concentrated in a handful of systems which makes it easy to blockade, PI will be done in hundreds of systems and be impossible to blockade. Bored roaming gangs might take a few potshots, but that's it. It is not a strategic target. The threat in NPC space won't be huge power blocks, it will be local pirates.


The best protection would simply be to make them small and cheap, so that lots and lots of people put them up. If they get knocked down, you just put up a new one.


Maybe have more than one size POCO? The large size could be what we've seen already, suitable for big operations and highsec. The small would be suitable for ninja PI guys, and could be something like:

2000m^3 to transport, so you can fit 4-5 of them in a blockade runner.
10,000^3 storage space, the same as a launch pad, so you can't store a ton of stuff in them.
10,000,000 isk, so you can make back your investment in a reasonable time.
Lower hit points, so it isn't worth dropping caps, but a small pirate gang can easily take them down with battleships.
Sashaaa
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#1188 - 2011-10-21 07:40:42 UTC
Holy One wrote:
Red Zaya wrote:
And dont be surprised if after one or two month you have crowds of people whining for another nerf ...



... and a few k less subscriptions than before you started.



2 of my 4 accounts are Indy based.

They will not be renewed if this crap comes in.
Holy One
Privat Party
#1189 - 2011-10-21 08:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Holy One
Tas Nok wrote:

Good logic but flawed:
given that many folks in PI already have established networks on many planets they are going to want to continue to do so especially once prices spike high enough to warrant this additional investment

Recap of my post # 785
I spent 114 mil to get started in PI
I spent 65 mil to get re-started once the extractor head changes were made
I am looking at a total of roughly 560mil to get started a 3rd time once this happens

I can bear the costs if the prices go high enough, which under the current scheme they surely will



Higher prices just means higher costs.

:)
Holy One
Privat Party
#1190 - 2011-10-21 08:16:24 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Will POCOs gives us kill-mails? it will be shown on killboards? ( Depending on the answer people will hunt them for fun or not )


Yes like POSs, POCOs generate kill mails.


*facepalm

:)
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1191 - 2011-10-21 08:52:38 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Which is something that I think CCP needs to address - currently, to run lab / manuf slots on a POS tower with prices in the 350M/mo range for a large tower, you're looking at a cost of 8000-9500 ISK/hr. Right now, if you have a 60-slot POS tower and are paying 500M ISK/mo, then you have to plan on spending 11,300 per hour on fuel per slot.


Anything that makes over 1 mil/slot/day in profit will easily pay that back and then some, if you consider the 33% increase in production from the build time bonus.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1192 - 2011-10-21 09:01:21 UTC
Arra Lith wrote:

Suggestion

1) There is no CO at planet: Anyone can anchor and online Costoms Office Gantry.

2) Once placed and upgraded to Customs Office it goes active to use and invulnerable.

3) To attack CO attackers need to anchor and online their own CO Gantry. It can be attacked immediatelly, and time to online should be short (15-30 mins - just enough to alert defenders so they can organise fleet)

4) When attackers Gantry onlines defenders CO goes vulnerable and can be attacked.

5-a) If attackers CO gets destroyed defenders CO goes back to invulnerable mode.
5-b) If defenders CO gets to 25% shields it goes invulnerable, as well as attackers CO.

6) After reinforce ends and defenders lose their own CO attackers have option to upgrade it from Gantry to working CO (and collect isk from taxes) - it then goes invulnerable (going back to step 2);
or they can unanchor their structure, leaving planet without CO (going back to step 1).

--edit--
There still can be only one working CO at same time. If second Gantry is anchored it cannot be accessed from planet - its used only to make active Customs Office vulnerable, (ie by breaking energy link with planet that makes shield inpenetrable).


I quite like this, but I'd make the defender CO go into reinforce as soon as the attacker CO is online. This saves the attackers some boring structure shooting, and makes more gang styles viable for it.

Then you can take my original suggestion in the thread and give the structures high resists, so the fight after the time becomes something of a capture the flag game. You need to drive off the opposite gang to kill their CO, while remote repping your own so it doesn't get destroyed.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Toshiro GreyHawk
#1193 - 2011-10-21 09:01:58 UTC


Just one comment on the repeated assertion that this is an MMO and therefore players must be FORCED into playing with other players.

NO.

Remember the sand box bit?

If someone wants to go off and play in there own little corner of the sand box - the game shouldn't be designed to prevent them from doing so.

Obviously there are many things that benefit from a cooperative effort - but - FORCING people to do ANYTHING - is a mistake. They will just leave. You can not after all FORCE them to continue playing.



Now ... besides that - take the next logical step.

Where in the same logic could be applied to matters of scale. You could just as easily say - that small corporations aren't "massive" enough - and that people should be FORCED to all join large corporations.

The POCO issue in Lo Sec is one such example. If you don't have a large corporation - the people that do have them are simply going to force you out of your POCO - simply because they can - so they will.

As it sits right now - a small corporation or an individual - can Ninja PI in Lo Sec. but if they own something down there - that's just sitting around waiting for people to blow it up - especially if it's dependent on only the ships of that corporation to defend it - it will be. At least with a POS you can create one strong enough to take some real effort to destroy it. The only effort required to destroy a POCO is time. So they sit there and BS while they drink beer and use Lasers (no ammunition consumption) to grind away at the target POCO - all the time HOPING the owners will show up and give them a fight.


Thus - small corporations or individuals - simply will not use POCO's. Since most of the people who go down to Lo Sec are NOT industrialists - they're not going to be using them either. Thus - a failure of time and effort spent on adding them to the game.


Now - if they were allowed in Hi Sec - then someone might be able to make some money off of them but mostly not.

All in all this was simply a stupid idea, you know - like New Coke?

They had a test panel too that thought that New Coke was a great idea too ...

.
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Omega
#1194 - 2011-10-21 09:11:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Spanking Monkeys
Jack Dant wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Which is something that I think CCP needs to address - currently, to run lab / manuf slots on a POS tower with prices in the 350M/mo range for a large tower, you're looking at a cost of 8000-9500 ISK/hr. Right now, if you have a 60-slot POS tower and are paying 500M ISK/mo, then you have to plan on spending 11,300 per hour on fuel per slot.


Anything that makes over 1 mil/slot/day in profit will easily pay that back and then some, if you consider the 33% increase in production from the build time bonus.



the 33% dosnt make up for the extra costs and other issues with pos manufature.
im looking at around 300k/h at a pos with the set up im using or 30k/h in station. so i can increase margins on the same goods. not have to fartarse about trying to spred all my manufacturing over 12 hangers in space all anchoured within 3km from each (pos's suck ass). i dont have to cram all my stuff need for a set of jobs in a hanger with only 1mil m3 volume, i dont have to deal with 6 jobs ending at this time 5 ending at that, cos in a station i can just spam jobs upto 50/outpost.

the single biggest part of my 7 bil monthly shopping list of materials is robotics now. it accounts for about 600mil. pre pi it was about 70-100mil. soon it will be over 1bil for the same items.

ultimatly this change will most likly just stop me inventing and manufacturing from anything aside bpo's, i know of other manufactures that are in the same frame of mind, ccp is turning this game into more of a job with this than it already is, if pi wasnt already as mind numbing as watching paint dry, its getting worse cos now every few days you gotta go rep your 80mil or lose it.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1195 - 2011-10-21 09:16:13 UTC
Toshiro GreyHawk wrote:

As it sits right now - a small corporation or an individual - can Ninja PI in Lo Sec. but if they own something down there - that's just sitting around waiting for people to blow it up - especially if it's dependent on only the ships of that corporation to defend it - it will be. At least with a POS you can create one strong enough to take some real effort to destroy it. The only effort required to destroy a POCO is time. So they sit there and BS while they drink beer and use Lasers (no ammunition consumption) to grind away at the target POCO - all the time HOPING the owners will show up and give them a fight.


Thus - small corporations or individuals - simply will not use POCO's. Since most of the people who go down to Lo Sec are NOT industrialists - they're not going to be using them either. Thus - a failure of time and effort spent on adding them to the game.


You keep looking at this wrong. Let's say you are a PVP corp living in lowsec. You have no interest in doing PI yourself. But for a small price you can setup a POCO that will give 100% passive income. And every so often, it will attract the attention of some other entity, and create the rarest thing in eve PVP: a fight in the middle of space, with no gate, station or force field to run back to.

If the price of POCO is right, why wouldn't you do it?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1196 - 2011-10-21 09:37:04 UTC
Sashaaa wrote:
Holy One wrote:
Red Zaya wrote:
And dont be surprised if after one or two month you have crowds of people whining for another nerf ...



... and a few k less subscriptions than before you started.



2 of my 4 accounts are Indy based.

They will not be renewed if this crap comes in.



4 of my accounts are PVP focused will renew 3 to kill poco if this comes in.
Venkul Mul
Vikramaditya
#1197 - 2011-10-21 10:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Venkul Mul
CCP Omen wrote:
Ra Voreen wrote:
How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ?


We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference?
Regards
Omen


How will it work in wormholes?

Edit:
you have resolved the problem with accessing structure hangars (like a POS), for members of different corporations?
Or you have simply copied a piece of the stations hangars code?
Holy One
Privat Party
#1198 - 2011-10-21 10:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Holy One
So to sum up.

As things stand 50% of PI is done in high sec.

After the changes, 90% of PI will be done in highsec but by far fewer people.

A lot of advanced mass production, invention and mfg will simply cease in high and low sec due to prohibitively high set up costs and raw materials.

Everything from pos fuel to heavy missiles is gonna skyrocket. Resulting in more isk in the hands of the few and less pvp/even more risk aversion from the sheeple hordes in high sec.

Nobody in null sec is gonna bother with PI. WH PI will become insanely profitable and be largely risk free.

A lot of 'independant' industrialists will quit PI or move to high sec and downscale their operations ie. accounts.

CCP will lose money. Low sec will have even less occupants, the game will not be enriched, the subscriber base will not be diversified. The blob will grow. Over time, there will be fewer trial conversions as the time:isk required to get involved in any meaningful activity in game gets higher and higher.

Win for the dude who'll re-sub his pvp accounts to shoot POCS tho .. Big smile

:)
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
#1199 - 2011-10-21 10:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kim Lesley Hartman
[edit]I typed this really wrong reply but then it wasn't there when I hit post[/edit]

Fix your forums CCP.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1200 - 2011-10-21 10:24:44 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Which is something that I think CCP needs to address - currently, to run lab / manuf slots on a POS tower with prices in the 350M/mo range for a large tower, you're looking at a cost of 8000-9500 ISK/hr. Right now, if you have a 60-slot POS tower and are paying 500M ISK/mo, then you have to plan on spending 11,300 per hour on fuel per slot.


Anything that makes over 1 mil/slot/day in profit will easily pay that back and then some, if you consider the 33% increase in production from the build time bonus.


My PI networks were unnoticeably uneffected by the increase in pipe flow. They were already efficiently set up.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.