These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1081 - 2011-10-20 16:11:42 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Some responses to issues in general:

Blinking wallet intel: It's the corp wallet that will increase, not a player's. I don't think your average corp member's wallet icon blinks for corporate account balance changes. To gather the intel, someone with corp wallet access would have to be watching their corp wallet window. Otherwise, it makes perfect sense that you'd see the records of who accessed your CO and when. There's nothing stealthy about "docking up" a hauler at a customs office and loading up. Non-Issue.

Low-sec PI will be hard: Boo-hoo. Join a corp, stay in hisec, or man up and play the game. Low-sec is empire space that empire doesn't bother to police. It's not supposed to be easy afk income.

Prices will go up: Yep, and then more people will get into either hi-sec PI because it's easy and more profitable than before, or they'll start building low-sec COs when they become cost-effective and really reap the profits. The market will find a balance between supply and demand.

You can't change it now, we're already used to the cushy life: Get over it. Ship hit points changed. Nano-nerf happened. Minmatar guns got buffed. Cap ships are continually evolving. The game changes, adapt or die.

But everyone will leave!: This isn't a game-breaking Nex gold ammo issue, it's just CCP moving your cheese. You'll adapt or someone will take your place in the production line when the money is there to be made. Hi-sec is still "safe" if you can't swim in the deep water where the sharks are. Concord will hold your hand there and make it all better.



Nothing to disagree with here... however what about the lack of peripherial elements to the proposed change? Fine? or seems unpolished?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1082 - 2011-10-20 16:19:21 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
@CCP Nullabor:

Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed?


Build another one?

Quote:
We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources.


Migrate back and connect it.

Quote:
Those of us in wormholes... we're not running incursions or in FW, so we're completely cut off from the BPCs, fully dependent on entirely different groups of people. We also have a boatload of planets that would all need these things... ten in my hole alone... in order to function properly. Having to come up with either ten BPCs at non-insane prices (or worse, ten of these structures off the market) and build and/or move to position then upgrade... this is going to cause some quite significant hardships.


Heaven forbid you have to buy a bpc off the market or interact with "entirely different groups of people". What are you, space-Amish?

Quote:
They definitely need to be much more accessible, especially for folks that simply aren't in a position in any way, shape or form to farm the LP needed for them.


How do you acquire faction ammo? Ice-based POS fuel? Implants? I'm guessing you have to go to the open market for those things too, rather than being able to farm them in your WH.

Got any real concerns?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1083 - 2011-10-20 16:24:30 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:


Nothing to disagree with here... however what about the lack of peripherial elements to the proposed change? Fine? or seems unpolished?


Peripheral elements like better control of taxing levels? Better defense opportunities like anchoring a POS or POS-defense mods around it? Increased capacity of the rocket launches? Optionally allowing corporate access to the production?

I think yes on all those.

Like any new feature, it could stand some polish for sure. I think those discussions are more productive than the whining about how it'll never work and the whole game is ruined because PI got interesting finally.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Lorth Kelser
Phoenix Propulsion Labs
#1084 - 2011-10-20 16:28:29 UTC
This will just drive most PI into high sec.

They should only do this in null sec and leave low sec alone would help boost low sec as people complain about low sec as well.

Or do it on system sec status say below 0.25 you will have to build your own 0.25 and above will have concord custom office.

This would allow the little guy some risk-reward system into low sec.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1085 - 2011-10-20 16:29:46 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:

Everyone from the owning corp may use the customs office but the inventory inside it, like PI, are stored per player.


What are your reasons for this and are we likely to see a change in the future?

I've never liked the fact that you can't launch your PI material to the customs office while out of system and now that this new mechanic will see us owning the customs office it makes even less sense that we can't do that or at lease grant access to corp mates to allow then to transport materials.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1086 - 2011-10-20 16:30:38 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:


Nothing to disagree with here... however what about the lack of peripherial elements to the proposed change? Fine? or seems unpolished?


Peripheral elements like better control of taxing levels? Better defense opportunities like anchoring a POS or POS-defense mods around it? Increased capacity of the rocket launches? Optionally allowing corporate access to the production?

I think yes on all those.

Like any new feature, it could stand some polish for sure. I think those discussions are more productive than the whining about how it'll never work and the whole game is ruined because PI got interesting finally.



Agreed... and something I've been saying myself.

What thoughts do you have regarding any searchability functions? Tough shat? or needs some element add even to simply know if there are any POCO's in the system in the first place and which planets they are on given the Remote Sensing skill we already have?

Imo since POCO's are tied to planets they absolutely should show, at least genericly, as a filter on the Planet tab in the MAP.

Thoughts?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1087 - 2011-10-20 16:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Hundo Kay
I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.

Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?

This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.

If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.

If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.

We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?

So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP".
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#1088 - 2011-10-20 16:47:20 UTC
Lorth Kelser wrote:
This will just drive most PI into high sec.

They should only do this in null sec and leave low sec alone would help boost low sec as people complain about low sec as well.

Or do it on system sec status say below 0.25 you will have to build your own 0.25 and above will have concord custom office.

This would allow the little guy some risk-reward system into low sec.



I'm moving operations back to highsec. Screw this.
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1089 - 2011-10-20 16:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: rootimus maximus
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed? We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources.


Is it no longer fashionable to have your extractors and factories send stuff direct to a launchpad (instead of a storage thingy)? That would solve your command center problem.

CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Isabella Thresher wrote:
q2: can we use the custom office on a corporate level now, or will it still be single player?


Everyone from the owning corp may use the customs office but the inventory inside it, like PI, are stored per player.


I could be mis-understanding here, but I think Isabella was asking if there'll be a corp hanger like we have in stations. After all, we were promised changes to make PI more group-friendly when it was launched.

Lorth Kelser wrote:
This would allow the little guy some risk-reward system into low sec.


That's going to be available, it'll just require teamwork in many instances. That would be the second M in MMORPG.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1090 - 2011-10-20 17:08:56 UTC
While I don't think the fundamental idea is bad, I think the contradictions associated with it's planned deployment is...

What are the contradictions?

As have been referenced previously is the contradiction associated with 'Shooting at Structures'; the contradiction associated with the Null Sec Development Plan; the contradiction associated with previous PI development (there was already a previous iteration, it was updated and no mention of this was broached?); perceived contradictions associated with what Low Sec is supposed to be in relationship to Null Sec and Hi Sec (Should Supercaps now be allowed in 0.4 too??)

In the time that I have played EVE, I have always had the perception (false or not) that Low Sec is intended to graduate from HiSec to Null Sec; that just like Faction Warfare itself, it is a region that 'can' be used to cultivate growth toward Null Sec and ever increasing player interaction.

My own perceptions are that this is feature itself does not match the gradation between HSec LSec and Null Sec, and instead feels like an imbalanced gradation.

Again the feature is not bad, but how it is to be implemented in Low Sec (with no graduated difference from Null Sec) should be questioned and challenged; if for nothing else than to cause CCP to reassess this lack of gradation and respond, or if they realize there is merit to our objections that the appropriate modifications are made.

I am all for make way for the implementation of DUST 514 elements in EVE... but it should not be done on the backs of EVE pilots.

DUST 514 needs to be designed to make EVE better; not the other way around.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Circumstantial Evidence
#1091 - 2011-10-20 17:13:14 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:
I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom. Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?


CCP Omen wrote:
Orakkus wrote:
do the attackers get any reward (i.e. PI materials from the office) either when they reinforce it, or after they destroy it, or both?


Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=206556#post206556
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1092 - 2011-10-20 17:17:32 UTC
rootimus maximus wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed? We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources.


Is it no longer fashionable to have your extractors and factories send stuff direct to a launchpad (instead of a storage thingy)? That would solve your command center problem.



The launchpad connects to the Customs office. The customs office is going away. The command center is on the other side of the planet. It's neither feasible nor realistic to expect the PI network to migrate back to the command center where resources were depleted (hence the migration in the first place).

There's also the need to import materials to the planet.

So, combined with the already complicated logistics of wormholes and the fact that, in my hole at least, I need ten of these bad boys... yeah, there are issues. PI will be broken for a considerable amount of time, with no real gain. It'll take forever to recoup the cost of these abominations through a zero tax rate, especially when you consider only the residents of the hole will be doing PI regardless.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1093 - 2011-10-20 17:23:59 UTC
But you can launch stuff from the launchpads, is my point, so it doesn't matter that you're not connected to the command center. What am I missing? As far as importing goes, I can see the issue there. You need to be able to fire supply rockets down to the planet. Or, given the billions of isk you can make living in wormhole space, you could just buy / make the materials and drop your towers. You lose some profit for a few days and then carry on as normal. Even make the cusoms office open to all for a reasonable tax rate and recoup some of the costs.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1094 - 2011-10-20 17:24:04 UTC
@ CCP Omen and CCP Nullarbor

While I truly like the idea of player owned customs offices, I see a few problems, as other people have already iterated.

High sec customs offices still being owned by CONCORD makes sense, seeing as it's high-sec. The increase in taxes won't matter in the long run, as prices will rise to compensate.

Player owned customs offices (POCOs if you will) in 0.0 space and W-space are excellent ideas. I don't think anyone has come up with a valid argument against those, aside from the small details of access to the POCO and corp storage, at least for wormhole residents.

The main issue that I see, along with many others here, is the fact that low-sec will gain these player owned structures. Tax rates aside, as I see people either keeping taxes at a reasonable level or blowing up the structures completely. 0.0 residents are sure to deny the enemy resources. It's a standard tactic of war. Cut off the supply line, you cut off their life line. I'm sure that many people know that low-sec alliances are almost always associated with some sort of 0.0 sov alliance, providing them resources and soldiers, while getting blue standings, chances to pvp in large fleets, and access to resources otherwise not available to them.

Other issues include stealth camping, or "griefing," as well as being not cost effective, especially when compared to current prices of PI goods. Even with a 60% increase in PI prices, profits would be marginal at best, assuming a public tax rate on low-sec POCOs, what few of them there will be, of around 30-40%. And tax rates will need to be high enough where a corp would recoup their cost in a resonable amount of time, say, 2 months.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1095 - 2011-10-20 17:26:11 UTC
rootimus maximus wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed? We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources.


Is it no longer fashionable to have your extractors and factories send stuff direct to a launchpad (instead of a storage thingy)? That would solve your command center problem.



There seems to be a misunderstanding here....

The issue is that some PI operators have disconnected from their Command Centers which precludes them from being able to launch a rocket payload into space. As such if there is not POCO, then they have only a couple of options:

A) Migrate back to their badly placed Command Center to link with it again but exporting at reduced extraction rates

B) Wipe out the installations and deploy a new Command Center at a more preferable spot (and eat the associated costs) so they can export from planet again at the same resource extraction rates as previously

C) Abandon the colony in favor of a Indy friendly POCO planet (and still eat the associated costs)


Sadly, while a real issue, this should not be taken into consideration regarding development of POCO changes. This is a player choice that can have consequences, and would be no different than if the NPC-CO was camped and your storage is full - you need to get the commodities exported asap... [the only difference in such a scenario is that it is a temporary situation, while POCO's will be permanent]

I always make sure I am connected to my Command Center, just in case... and there have been several times where Pirates have been about that using the NPC-CO would have been suicide; and so I launched a rocket payload instead.

No one can cry to CCP about un-linking from their Command Center. That's a consequential choice that should have no impact on development of this feature.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1096 - 2011-10-20 17:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
rootimus maximus wrote:
But you can launch stuff from the launchpads, is my point, so it doesn't matter that you're not connected to the command center. What am I missing? As far as importing goes, I can see the issue there. You need to be able to fire supply rockets down to the planet. Or, given the billions of isk you can make living in wormhole space, you could just buy / make the materials and drop your towers. You lose some profit for a few days and then carry on as normal. Even make the cusoms office open to all for a reasonable tax rate and recoup some of the costs.


Hmm... I could be worried over a lot less than necessary... I thought you could only rocket things into space from the command centers and launchpads were for connecting to the customs offices... if that's incorrect that's a degree less painful, but it still results with an immediate need for three or four of these things initially with the remainder of the planets being covered shortly after.

Ah, nm... Kassasis cleared it up.

Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1097 - 2011-10-20 17:28:49 UTC
rootimus maximus wrote:
But you can launch stuff from the launchpads, is my point, so it doesn't matter that you're not connected to the command center. What am I missing? As far as importing goes, I can see the issue there. You need to be able to fire supply rockets down to the planet. Or, given the billions of isk you can make living in wormhole space, you could just buy / make the materials and drop your towers. You lose some profit for a few days and then carry on as normal. Even make the cusoms office open to all for a reasonable tax rate and recoup some of the costs.


The launch from the launch pad goes to the customs office. The launch from the command center does not. Also, at least with my PI, not launching my products on time halts all of my production or at LEAST a week. That would be a loss of isk of about 20-30 million, depending on market prices. I'm in agreement that the existing structures should remain until destroyed. You won't even need to have them go into reinforced and you could give them very little ehp to encourage people to blow them up and place their own.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1098 - 2011-10-20 17:29:56 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:
I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.

Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?

This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.

If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.

If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.

We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?

So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP".


No drop, the items are just destroyed.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1099 - 2011-10-20 17:32:29 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:
I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom.

Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing?

This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO.

If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable.

If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement.

We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it?

So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP".


No drop, the items are just destroyed.


For some reason you seem to be very selective with what you're choosing to answer, adeptly avoiding concerns.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1100 - 2011-10-20 17:34:03 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
@ CCP Omen and CCP Nullarbor

While I truly like the idea of player owned customs offices, I see a few problems, as other people have already iterated.

High sec customs offices still being owned by CONCORD makes sense, seeing as it's high-sec. The increase in taxes won't matter in the long run, as prices will rise to compensate.

Player owned customs offices (POCOs if you will) in 0.0 space and W-space are excellent ideas. I don't think anyone has come up with a valid argument against those, aside from the small details of access to the POCO and corp storage, at least for wormhole residents.

The main issue that I see, along with many others here, is the fact that low-sec will gain these player owned structures. Tax rates aside, as I see people either keeping taxes at a reasonable level or blowing up the structures completely. 0.0 residents are sure to deny the enemy resources. It's a standard tactic of war. Cut off the supply line, you cut off their life line. I'm sure that many people know that low-sec alliances are almost always associated with some sort of 0.0 sov alliance, providing them resources and soldiers, while getting blue standings, chances to pvp in large fleets, and access to resources otherwise not available to them.

Other issues include stealth camping, or "griefing," as well as being not cost effective, especially when compared to current prices of PI goods. Even with a 60% increase in PI prices, profits would be marginal at best, assuming a public tax rate on low-sec POCOs, what few of them there will be, of around 30-40%. And tax rates will need to be high enough where a corp would recoup their cost in a resonable amount of time, say, 2 months.



.... this way going well until it just stopped!

Just wanted to point out that there's no conclusion to your well presented post, and instead because it just 'dies' without tying all elements together into a conclusion it probably will simply be ignored.

I advise you draft it again and repost it so I can 'Like" it...

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf