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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

First post First post
Author
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#821 - 2011-10-19 12:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
my questions got lost in the middle of this thread
re posting them again in the hopes CCP responds:

Questions to CCP:

- what was the motivation for the upgrade step, why not include the materials of the upgrade in the construction step and then is just a simple anchor and online? Is that a way to avoid online ninja tactics?

- Will you provide 5 runs BPCs in concord store for a discount like the capital modules?

- This customs offices shields regenerate?

- Its possible to have a second and third version of this structure with more and less raw HP (for more / less money and materials of course) so people can have a choice to choose having in account their corp wallets size vs risk / defense capabilities -> (small, medium, large)

- Why not allow, In low sec, multiple customs offices (max 3 for planet) and let the market / concurrency / prices decide how this possibility plays out?

- Will people attacking the costumer office in low sec gain aggression and drop in standings?

- If the custom office is only anchor, not upgraded, can I still shoot it and reinforce it?

- Can downgrade the customs offices and un-anchor it?

- The customs offices will need stront?

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#822 - 2011-10-19 12:21:44 UTC
Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:
You make a couple tacs of the customs offices and warp to those first hit dscan warp down if clear I only need to be there for around 5-10 seconds dependant on how much agility I fitted. Not many pirates wanna sit at a customs office 23,5/7. You ninja the PI when the pirates head out on ops which happily for me they do on the same days around the same times (yes indy's can gather intel too), guess when I collect my goo ^_^


This method will still work with POCOs.

Frankly, you are underestimating the laziness of most pirate entities (and I was CEO of such a corp for a long time). They'd be happy to get PI tax from neutrals (zero admin involved), while still trying to kill the same neutrals as usual. Closing the POCO to blues (renters) means less targets, and more diplo/admin work to find renters, collect payment and deal with them.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Dr Mercy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#823 - 2011-10-19 12:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Mercy
I'm wondering why we can't have this:

http://i.imgur.com/SBnBA.png

Rather than the current planned:

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/2690/2899/Configure.PNG

Also, +1 for option to allow corp access to PI products in the PCO. A 350,000 m3 corp hanger?

And +1 to allowing contracts to/from PCOs (which could be a work around it corp access / corp hanger not feasible).

Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets

Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#824 - 2011-10-19 12:28:11 UTC
Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:


What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.



You make some good points, but I think we have to keep in mind where CCP are going with PI and its inevitable interaction with DUST 514. To illustrate:

Dustbunny "Hi my teams here to defend this world from your aggressors!"
Dave "Er..hi."
Dustbunny "So what support can your corp mates give? Orbital bombardment? How big's your fleet?!"
Dave "Er...well its just me tbh"
Dustbunny "..."

Having said all that CCP could include some interesting smuggling mechanics in here > avoiding custom office tariffs for example. Personally I don't fear to much for the smart little guy; they typically outwit the larger entities as is and I don't think POCO will be much different.

C.

Apodis Blue
NOVA TECH
#825 - 2011-10-19 12:30:34 UTC
Sorry, this is FAIL !
EPIC FAIL !

Think of the economical impact!
Prices of PI stuff aren't high enough already??
And as said in the latest Price Indices report,
ice product prices and PI product prices are negatively correlated!
In other words, ice products will get cheap, bottom prices, and PI stuff expensive.
Btw, PI stuff isn't all for POS fuel, but also for T2 production. I don't wanna think about the price risings there...

The BPO only available through CONCORD LP shops or Faction Warfare...
Another FAIL !!
Who gets CONCORD LPs? Those who do incursions.
PI is for industrials !! They don't run incursions !!! And they don't do faction warfare either !!
Industrials don't / can't fly combat ships !! So how do you want us to defend our custom offices ??!!

Oh! And another thing...
PI in hisec is already very time consuming, due to low resources on those hisec planets, and now you're going to double import/export taxes ??!!

Thanks alot! But this change will break PI even more, if not completely !!!
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#826 - 2011-10-19 12:34:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tres Farmer
deter the big blob and lure the small gang:

- make the reinforcement timers for low sec and npc null 2-3 times that of sov-null.. minimum 48 hours
- people attacking the structure should cost the owner isk/material, but 'payout' should be organised similar to Incursions (an optimal attacking group should be your average local roaming gang)
- milking the CO should be more attractive than destroying it and only be lucrative to small gangs


Also, set up a flat tax for joe average in low sec/npc null sec so that he still is able to pi-ninja out there if he feels like it. 200% flat tax, anonymously. Or make it so that only standings from corp to corp or alliance to alliance count for the taxation, and entrepreneurs have a chance..

As for using the corp managment/roles that also relate to pos.. are you out of your freaking mind? I mean really? *facepalm*


[edit]EDIT: besides that, all fine.. keep doing this! hehe.. nice change.[/edit]
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#827 - 2011-10-19 12:37:28 UTC
Cailais wrote:
Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:


What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.



You make some good points, but I think we have to keep in mind where CCP are going with PI and its inevitable interaction with DUST 514. To illustrate:

Dustbunny "Hi my teams here to defend this world from your aggressors!"
Dave "Er..hi."
Dustbunny "So what support can your corp mates give? Orbital bombardment? How big's your fleet?!"
Dave "Er...well its just me tbh"
Dustbunny "..."

Having said all that CCP could include some interesting smuggling mechanics in here > avoiding custom office tariffs for example. Personally I don't fear to much for the smart little guy; they typically outwit the larger entities as is and I don't think POCO will be much different.

C.



Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Apodis Blue
NOVA TECH
#828 - 2011-10-19 12:43:16 UTC
Cunane Jeran wrote:
Loving the sound of these changes. PI really needed something to kick it up the ass and this is perfect.


... to break it completely... Sad
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
#829 - 2011-10-19 12:46:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Scarlett Ninja
Rek Seven wrote:
Scarlett Ninja wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
Raziphan Rebular wrote:
Why require corporations? Okay so I love PI it's something everyone can do with a little skill, and a lot of understanding. But this move, takes PI away from the little guy and moves it into the hands of corporations. Why must these custom offices be ran by corporations and not simply players? Why can't becoming a baron of a ton of profitable planets be another possibility for players? It's always irked me that only Corporations can setup Poses, and now it seems like only corporation will be able to run their own customs office despite the fact they seem to be well with in the range of the single player to afford and deploy.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CCP make it so that we can launch our own personal custom offices as well not simply 'for the corporation'.


It's really quite cheap to create your own one man corporation. Also, the "little" guy is adviced to use CONCORD's customs offices in High-Sec.

Regards
Omen


OMGWTF..........did you REALLY say that Omen......are you on drugs, pissed up or what?

I am the "little" guy you so insultingly disregard in your response to this question, i started in hi sec, then gathered my resorces and moved to NPC 0.0..........I obviously missed the sign saying " RESERVED SPACE, MEGA CORPS ONLY!!"

Because you make it very plain that you can't be bothered with us "little" guys, should i take my 3 "little" accounts and close them down i wonder?

When i first read your blog i was not happy, now you've added insult to injury......go f**k your self!


That was uncalled for.

I think what the dev was trying to say was that high sec will still have customs offices to enable you to do PI without interacting with other players. If you want to do PI in null sec (potentially player owned space) where you can earn significantly more than people in high sec, then be prepared to have to interact with other players... you did know this is an MMO right?!


My main char is part of a large 0.0 alliance so i know what the game is about smartarse!

Also I do my PI in 0.0 NPC space, so no player holds sov, as i understand it you cannot do PI in someone elses sov space!

As for "interacting", you should try working 18 planets in a hostile system......there is plenty of "interaction"!

Why should I loose out to the Alliance that makes it's home in the same system, they have their chances to kill me, they do not own the system but under the new system as far as PI goes they might as well!

And I think what is uncalled for is to get people to invest heavily, say maybe a Jumpfreighter, then risk your investment to do an activity that CCP said is for everybody, just to have the door slamed in your face in favor of the biggest blob that resides in your area.....thats just bollocks

@ War Kitten, I already alreay have a 4 man corp doing the PI, clue was the "18 planets" bit and my previous post on the subject, the point is i will not be able to run a CO in the system i'm in because it will be blown up buy the locals who will put up their own and so stop me from participating in part of a game i pay to play!
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#830 - 2011-10-19 12:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tres Farmer
Ingvar Angst wrote:
*snip*

Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there.


Uhm?

Pro:
0% tax from there on
increased revenue from PI products

Con:
upfront install cost of COs




Again, milking the CO by a small gang must be more attractive than the reinforcement/destruction by the big blob. The other side is, that the milking must be a big enough nuisance for the CO owners/users to 'feel the urge' to do something about it. A big blob, putting the thing into reinforce is not it.
Jeff Geoff
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#831 - 2011-10-19 12:49:23 UTC
Get ready to defend your wormhole!

PI is important to us as a source of POS fuel and income (excess sold in Empire). The changes give you a temporary degree of ownership of planets in your wh system.


When are changes scheduled to be introduced?

I assume planetary industrial modules will continue to function but not be accessible until Corp owned customs put in place.

Key to successful defence is the timers on access wormholes to our system unless the aggressor logs off in system. It would take a lot of time and effort on behalf of an aggressor to take down all our customs offices.

Small is beautiful. C1 wh would seem to be the most easily defended.

Jeff

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#832 - 2011-10-19 12:50:00 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
[quote=Cailais]

Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there.


Incorrect. Your corp will have the option of getting an additional income from the tax. Don't want to tax your corp? That's up to you.
Par'Gellen
#833 - 2011-10-19 12:51:44 UTC
Here are the four things PI really needs:

  1. Click-fest has to go. It's really quite simple. GET RID OF MANUAL ROUTING! A simple "up-the-chain" routing system would be fine.
    • Plop down extractor and tell it what to do.
    • Attach basic factory to it and it should DEFAULT to converting whatever the extractor is pulling.
    • Any attached Advanced factories should pull what they need from the Basics AUTOMATICALLY.
    • Any attached High-Tech factories should pull what they need from the Advanceds AUTOMATICALLY.
    • Any overflow/excess should DEFAULT to AND from any attached storage facility AUTOMATICALLY.

  2. Storage Facilities (spaceports especially) should be ENORMOUS! They should be capable of storing freighter sized loads.

  3. Colonies should be creatable as Private (for a single character) or Corporate (for a corporation). Access to corporate customs offices controls and storage should be just like access to corporate hangars (accessible by anyone that has access granted to them by the corp). This is a no-brainer and should already be implemented.

  4. Link upgrades have to go. They serve no purpose other than to eat power and CPU and add nothing of benefit. This power and CPU drain mechanic could easily be included into the links themselves AUTOMATICALLY depending on their length and load.

These are the things I want to see fixed in PI. Anything else is just a waste of time.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#834 - 2011-10-19 12:53:28 UTC
Tres Farmer wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
*snip*

Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there.


Uhm?

Pro:
0% tax from there on
increased revenue from PI products

Con:
upfront install cost of COs

Again, milking the CO by a small gang must be more attractive, than the reinforcement/destruction by the big blob. The other side is, that the milking must be a big enough nuisance for the CO owners/users to 'feel the urge' to do something about it. A big blob, putting the thing into reinforce is not it.


Unfurtunately the "CON" of the price for these abominations will eat any profit to be gleamed from PI, including the lower tax rate, for a considerable time, especially when you consider needing ten of these things. So, while trying to get ten, PI will be broken. Generic lauches won't work, unless someone can tell me how to do launches when your command center is no longer connected to the rest of the network because you moved the network following resources, or how to get those P1 materials being made on the gathering planets down to the industrial planet that converts them to P2 on up.

They're really screwing things up, and the fact that CCP won't even address the concerns the players have now indicates that the whole Hilmar apology and promise for better communication was just a lie to coddle the community.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Ahrman Vanaheim
Chimaera Combine
#835 - 2011-10-19 12:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahrman Vanaheim
Not at all enthusiastic about this for lowsec.

Given that lowsec is 'still' considered the domain of the empires with gate guns and stations, how do players suddenly have the ability to place customs offices in sovereign territory?

Ok, the big problem from my point is that there is vast numbers of bored low sec inhabitants who have sucessfully killed anyone else in their region. This will give them somthing else to destroy (even if taxes are set to 0 I would imagine) and then wonder why their space is so empty.

It really is a great idea in theory, just not for space that really can't be controlled. Null Sec yes, Low Sec definitely not.

I can't comment on Wormholes as I have little experience with them. I would expect the opportunities for random destruction of someone elses customs offices, once again just for the hell of it, would be good (in addition to legitimate takeover tactics).
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#836 - 2011-10-19 12:55:18 UTC
Scarlett Ninja wrote:

My main char is part of a large 0.0 alliance so i know what the game is about smartarse!

As for "interacting", you should try working 18 planets in a hostile system......there is plenty of "interaction"!


You are part of a 0.0 alliance and operate on 18 different planets and claim to be "the little guy"... Interesting argument.
Afandi
Otbor Chereshka
#837 - 2011-10-19 12:55:40 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Here are the four things PI really needs:

  1. Click-fest has to go. It's really quite simple. GET RID OF MANUAL ROUTING! A simple "up-the-chain" routing system would be fine.
    • Plop down extractor and tell it what to do.
    • Attach basic factory to it and it should DEFAULT to converting whatever the extractor is pulling.
    • Any attached Advanced factories should pull what they need from the Basics AUTOMATICALLY.
    • Any attached High-Tech factories should pull what they need from the Advanceds AUTOMATICALLY.
    • Any overflow/excess should DEFAULT to AND from any attached storage facility AUTOMATICALLY.

  2. Storage Facilities (spaceports especially) should be ENORMOUS! They should be capable of storing freighter sized loads.

  3. Colonies should be creatable as Private (for a single character) or Corporate (for a corporation). Access to corporate customs offices controls and storage should be just like access to corporate hangars (accessible by anyone that has access granted to them by the corp). This is a no-brainer and should already be implemented.

  4. Link upgrades have to go. They serve no purpose other than to eat power and CPU and add nothing of benefit. This power and CPU drain mechanic could easily be included into the links themselves AUTOMATICALLY depending on their length and load.

These are the things I want to see fixed in PI. Anything else is just a waste of time.


This.
Afandi
Otbor Chereshka
#838 - 2011-10-19 12:57:45 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Scarlett Ninja wrote:

My main char is part of a large 0.0 alliance so i know what the game is about smartarse!

As for "interacting", you should try working 18 planets in a hostile system......there is plenty of "interaction"!


You are part of a 0.0 alliance and operate on 18 different planets and claim to be "the little guy"... Interesting argument.



Not sure if dumb or trolling...

Obviously he has an alt to do PI, who is a "little guy".

Troll away.
Dierdra Vaal
Interstellar Stargate Syndicate
#839 - 2011-10-19 13:00:25 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
David Carel wrote:
a) Will it be possible to set a tax rate for different standings/groups? Say, Alliance has 0%, +10 has 0% too, +5 has 10%, +0 has 20%, -5 has 50% and -10 has 100%?


Wow, that was a good idea but it's not the case. If the time fairy smiles, then maybe...but don't count on it.


I realise you're on a tight budget but I would like to emphasise that allowing different tax rates would make this a much more interesting mechanic. If possible, ask one of your programmers how long it would take to do please :D

CCP Omen wrote:
We will try and figure out how to avoid the blob incentive without making the experience of owning one, EVEN WORSE. It's a very delicate problem. The relative low value of most CO might be enough not to warrant assembling a blob.

Regards
Omen


and

CCP Omen wrote:
Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one.


The relative low value of most CO won't matter compared to the relative high value of hilarious carebear tears.

My point is that just because a sandcastle is cheap or unimportant, doesn't mean people won't go disproportionate lengths to kick it over. Especially when everyone and their mother has a supercap, which makes reinforcing them a matter of minutes with only a few supers.

You should consider making the COs immune to doomsdays and fighter bombers. That would at least increase the effort of kicking them over a little.

Veto #205

Director Emeritus at EVE University

CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman

Evesterdam organiser and CSM Vote Match founder

Co-Author of the Galactic Party Planning Guide

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#840 - 2011-10-19 13:01:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Afandi wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Scarlett Ninja wrote:

My main char is part of a large 0.0 alliance so i know what the game is about smartarse!

As for "interacting", you should try working 18 planets in a hostile system......there is plenty of "interaction"!


You are part of a 0.0 alliance and operate on 18 different planets and claim to be "the little guy"... Interesting argument.



Not sure if dumb or trolling...

Obviously he has an alt to do PI, who is a "little guy".

Troll away.


neither.

The guy that considers someone with 4 characters to be the little guy is the dummy here.