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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#441 - 2011-10-18 18:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
I love how the biggest argument for this is that some magic ninja will come along setting up PCOs everywhere with a 9% tax, while everything else is getting ignored. I doubt most alliances will allow neuts to use their PCOs and any that do you can be damn sure tax will be a lot higher than 9%. And the argument "market prices" doesnt really work. The alliances WANT to control the market pries. If they are producing the PI at 0% tax while everyone else is paying 50% tax, they control the region market.

You are taking away a system that works well enough from every casual player and smal alliance that ventures out of highsec. There is NO way this is going to work out well for anyone except big alliances, and even they will have a small problem. What happens when during the night, a group pops into your systems and reinforces ALL of your PCOs. they will now all pop out of reinforced mode at the same time, and theres no way you could coordinate a defence for all of them in < 24 hours. If their defense isnt massively high, and you dont allow turrets with them, it will happen.

[edit]
Also please note that the less people an alliance has do PI on its planet, the slower the drain of the resources on the plane is, so why would an alliance allow anyone but their own?
[/edit]

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Mallikanth
Wasters
#442 - 2011-10-18 18:41:03 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Midnight Hope wrote:
If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??

I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity.

The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc.


Hmmm magically teleported goods to a nearby Outpost or office in a low sec NPC station? Cry

I'd prefer to see a proportion of whats in there ejected in cans. Twisted
More "realism", more profit, more reason to protect, empty regularly and of course attack.

Believe in what they do, not what they say.

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#443 - 2011-10-18 18:43:39 UTC
Mallikanth wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
Midnight Hope wrote:
If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well??

I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity.

The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc.


Hmmm magically teleported goods to a nearby Outpost or office in a low sec NPC station? Cry

I'd prefer to see a proportion of whats in there ejected in cans. Twisted
More "realism", more profit, more reason to protect, empty regularly and of course attack.


That refers to the current existing CO (owned by NPCs), not the later player built ones. So, come deployment day, all those get deleted and their contents relocated.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

DuKackBoon
Soban Heavy Industries
#444 - 2011-10-18 18:44:15 UTC
[Sheridan voice]YES!!![/Sheridan voice]
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#445 - 2011-10-18 18:44:18 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Again... THIS IS A COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CHANGE IN WORMHOLES!

1. Only the people that live there do the PI there. We won't be charging our own corp/alliance taxes for the fuel they're making to help keep the pos running.

2. Holes last a maximum of 24 hrs. If someone comes in and puts one reinforced, the hole will close before they can pop it. Even if they pop it, they gain nothing. So, it's either wasted time and aggravation to put one reinforced and never get to finish the job, or it's an added pain in the ass for someone moving into a new hole to have to clean these pieces of crap out in order to set up their own.

The whole concept completely fails in wormholes. Please consider leaving wormhole space out of this. It only works in areas of high traffic where you can have people that are in direct competition with each other trying to do PI on a particular planet. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in wormholes!

C'mon CCP... THINK on this!


CCP Omen - I may not be on the CSM, but could you take a moment to consider this? It really makes no sense to include wormholes in this change at all. I'm not going to tax myself or my corp, so there's no one to tax there. I have up to ten planets being worked, so I need to halt fuel production and come up with ten of these things that we won't use anyhow?

This is a really really bad change with regards to J-space. Please take a moment to consider that.



Valid point, but there is more to it than that.

The new CO system can and will have an impact of corps that wish to take your wormhole, not to mention static wormholes that have fairly regular visitors.

If someone wishes to take over your WH, they have to consider that if they wish to fully utilize it they will need to spend the time to remove your infrastructure.
I
f they wish to harass you, they now have another way to do so.

If you wish to move to another WH, you too will have these same advantages and disadvantages to weigh.

Also, of course you can place a zero % tax on your CO... but most corps would consider at least a 5% tax on import/export. Especially when you consider that if your corp members were doing PI on an already less lucurative high sec planet they would be paying 10% now. In fact, under the current system they are already paying 5% with none of that going to benefit the corp.


Tying the BPs to Concord LP... also stupid. Dude... we're in wormholes. Concord doesn't give us LP. No incursions into wormholes. Can they be built at a pos? Can they be done so cheaply? Or will we be stuck spending billions for enough of these to cover our planets just so we can make enough fuel to keep going?


Then buy them off of the market like most people will do 5 minutes after the become available in the LP stores, build them in any station with a factory slot, haul and drop it into place.

There are already lists of components out there tor construction. If you do the math you won't be spending "billions" to cover your 10 planets.

From that point on you can produce 100% tax free goods, while everyone in high sec (or using someone elses CO in low sec as will be extremely common) will be losing 10% off the top.

Well worth the investment on 10 planets... even more worthwhile if you run more.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#446 - 2011-10-18 18:46:22 UTC
Esker Sheep wrote:
pussnheels wrote:

But why low sec aswell , it is empire controlled right , sure there is no concord but it is empire controlled
Alot of us already taking a risk , granted a low risk doing pi in low sec so why make it harder and more cumbersome for us

honestly i don't see any pro in this except if you are a large nullsec alliance


You can moon mine in low sec right? Why not operate customs offices. Stations in low sec systems are run by different corps. Why can't the customs offices. There is logic behind this.



The difference is you need a certain minimum standings with the empire faction to anchor a POS.
Zey Nadar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2011-10-18 18:47:14 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Ra Voreen wrote:
How will it work in null-sec ? Are the planets still reserved to the alliance that holds sov ?


We are undecided on this topic, it could go either way right now any preference?
Regards
Omen


Absolutely NO tie-up to sovereignty whatsoever. Make it like poses, put them up where you will, nothing to do with sov.

You can introduce discounts to costs for sov-holders or whatever, but please please please do not restrict building of the offices. We have enough unused empty sovereignty space already.
Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#448 - 2011-10-18 18:47:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Trainwreck McGee
edit for misinterpretation

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool

Damien Ganvi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2011-10-18 18:47:23 UTC
Liu Ellens wrote:
I was hoping to read about one feature: Make these custom offices be available for courier-contracts! But was highly disappointed...


..snip..


I love the suggestion for courier contracts directly to Customs Offices... great suggestion!
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#450 - 2011-10-18 18:47:41 UTC
Great, so now someone who runs PI in a quiet low sec system on a small scale basis is screwed.
Now they have to put up PI structures within said quiet low sec system, with a "blow me up" sign on them.

Small scale low end PI in low sec is now dead for small corps.
Once again, CCP has developed something for the huge alliances, and screwed the little guy.

It is one thing to dodge the gankers in low sec to do PI, it quite another to fight alliances.

All hail the megacorps and mega alliances.
Victor Akulla
Kraken Industries
#451 - 2011-10-18 18:49:09 UTC
This is kind of a waist of time. Most people who do PI farm mulitple planets and run Ninja-PI so they will have to switch to Can Launches cuz no way Im going to pay someone else for my hard work. The the other thing is just one CO will be so cost prohibitive that it will not be worth the effort. Plus 99% of the time with respect to low sec there is only one player sucking stuff of the planet ( I have yet to see another person on one of the planets I farm), so it would take years to recoup the investment of the CO. Plus after about 4 months the planet will become sucked dry and you will be left with a useless Customs office.

In the average system there are 6 to 10 planets, so what will happen to the planets without CO, only Can launches will be available?

Who ever came up with this idea must not know anything about running a real PI operation in Low Sec. High sec is a non issue and well in null there is no point since the Guild will probably own the area and why charge themselves for PI transfers. All you really are doing is adding to the already bored gate campers agenda by giving them more things to shoot at, please don't do this its such a waist of resources use the programming time to fix stuff that is broken.

Very Respectfully

VA

Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2011-10-18 18:50:32 UTC
Oh great. Another nerf to the already completely pointless place that is lowsec!



Zey Nadar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#453 - 2011-10-18 18:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zey Nadar
I havent decided yet whether this is good or bad. The fact that its still restricted to officers of a player corp instead of individuals was a massive letdown already.

Why not take this opportunity and refine the corp roles at the same time, introduce more of them or better UI etc. Corp roles is still one of the big things that need fixing.

Most likely this change will screw over more people than it will make happy.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#454 - 2011-10-18 18:52:15 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I love how the biggest argument for this is that some magic ninja will come along setting up PCOs everywhere with a 9% tax, while everything else is getting ignored. I doubt most alliances will allow neuts to use their PCOs and any that do you can be damn sure tax will be a lot higher than 9%. And the argument "market prices" doesnt really work. The alliances WANT to control the market pries. If they are producing the PI at 0% tax while everyone else is paying 50% tax, they control the region market.

You are taking away a system that works well enough from every casual player and smal alliance that ventures out of highsec. There is NO way this is going to work out well for anyone except big alliances, and even they will have a small problem. What happens when during the night, a group pops into your systems and reinforces ALL of your PCOs. they will now all pop out of reinforced mode at the same time, and theres no way you could coordinate a defence for all of them in < 24 hours. If their defense isnt massively high, and you dont allow turrets with them, it will happen.

[edit]
Also please note that the less people an alliance has do PI on its planet, the slower the drain of the resources on the plane is, so why would an alliance allow anyone but their own?
[/edit]


1: If you can't keep a group from reinforcing all of your PCO's you are screwed anyway, unless they are simply passing through on a roam. If they are roaming, just rep them back up. Blink

2: If they do destroy all of your PCO's use the launchpads in the mean time and consider yourself properly harrassed EVE style.

3: Not being able to/wanting to use the PCO at a planet does NOT mean you cannot do PI on that planet.

4: With something the size of a planet I can see corp/alliance making it difficult to do ninja PI, but not impossible. Since launchpads are available, this is EXACTLY the way it would be (if SOV would not make it impossible for you to try).

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance
#455 - 2011-10-18 18:53:45 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:

We are ready to go when we have sifted through your feedback and made any necessary changes. For once we are not pressed for time, this is a good thing. The CSM were notified 2011.08.19 11:22:00, the design was shown to them and we made several tweaks as a result. If you want to see things UBER early the CSM is the place to be!

Regards
Omen

I have asked our lovely community reps , and I can say this much about the release of this feature: between US Thanksgiving and Christmas


There are a few obvious things you guys need to do before releasing this change:
1. Make sure enough BPC for the CO's are available when the current CO's disappear. There are thousands and thousands of planets in use and replacing all those CO's WON'T happen quickly. Alternatively, leave the current CO's in place for 3-6 months or until someone replaces it by anchoring a player owned one. Another idea is to issue 1 free BPC to each corp or each player or each alliance (which ever gives the optimal #).
2. PI prices are going to go through the roof (probably already have). Have you thought through what this means to the market, PoS fuels prices, 0.0 alliance finances, etc.? I bet you don't even have a vague clue and you REALLY should or at least be prepared to do something if it all goes pear shaped (see Market Discussions thread for clues).
3. You've created yet another asset that only giant blobs can reliably defend. Is this really what you want? Perhaps you should weight the HP such that disabling it isn't too hard, but destroying it is hard, COSTLY, and only worth it for strategic reasons.
4. You've created yet another item that will be spammed all across space and doesn't require any kind of maintenance. Do we really need more space trash? I think unused facilities should be easily trashed by a small gang or taken over instead of destroyed.
Khalia Nestune
Mad Stacks
#456 - 2011-10-18 18:56:49 UTC
What are the shield/armor/structure resistances on these things? Couldn't find it.

http://www.mylootyourtears.com

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#457 - 2011-10-18 18:57:53 UTC
Hmm that will effectily be a big nerf to lowsec, since it would be impossible to defend a POS farm, especially 23/7. The cost for some PCO will probably eat up the profit of weeks and if one of them gets blown up it is probably more profitable to mine Veldspar in a newbie-ship.

No I am not crying, but I predict a very sharp price increase in POS fuels will be the result, the ones who will cry will not be the masochists who do PI, but the POS owners who needs the materials.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Bendenn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#458 - 2011-10-18 18:59:46 UTC
Can we please just have the ability to set these up as an individual player? I don't want to setup a one man corp just to anchor a customs office. PI was introduced as something that everyone could take part in, casual to mega corp. This change kind of breaks that. And please don't give me the "just hang out in high sec" routine.
Mavric
Viscosity
#459 - 2011-10-18 19:00:16 UTC
This is just complete and utter crap. PI already sux. It sucks to set up, it sucks to maintain. Now we want to add yet another structure to shoot at too.. On top of that its going to be a race to get to the plasma planets first.

Whoopee.. I am so excited..

Is the lag fixed yet?

How about walking in stations? (Also useless)

Can my dread out DPS a BS yet?

Are Supers still the win button?

Yea lets screw with PI first.. good plan..
Brunaburh
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#460 - 2011-10-18 19:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Brunaburh
So some concerns, later on.

First: cost. I'm hearing a probable cost of something like 80 million ISK to set up a customs office, assuming some market manipulation of the component costs and the LP/ISK conversion. Now I don't know about you, but it takes me a well designed setup in losec to come close to 80 million ISK in a month - and that doesn't include the costs for getting the intermediary materials created (Buy P1/P2 and process). The cost - profit ratio for something like Oxygen or Coolant is far too low for this to be a manageable methodology for production. Unless you change the depletion cycles in addition to the outputs, it's going to be very hard to cost-justify setting up a customs office where you need to export P1 or P2 products, and they are the largest, benefiting most from the command center capacity.

Second, lack of cost. Ok, yeah it's not cost effective to set them up on some planets, but it creates a great option to bottleneck production of some components and make Technetium 2.0.

(from a corpmate)
Quote:
So some alliance with a lot of capital force projection and liquid ISK goes and takes over every plasma planet in losec. What do you do about it if they charge exorbitant taxes but allow all to use them? Suck it up and pay more isk into their coffers. This won't help industrial corps move into losec...


His example was Goonswarm or Pandemic Legion. Two alliances with a lot of liquid isk and firepower. It would be really easy for them to monopolize a rare planet market, especially since there is no ongoing cost associated with potential incoming profits.

These things need a monthly associated cost